2012-06-23, 12:33 | Link #241 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Age: 34
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Most of DeVille's fight happened entirely off-panel and we saw very little .... He may be stronger than Cypha, but we have no way of knowing that at the moment.
And Veyron did hold on to Subaru and stop her movements, doing it bare handily or not doesn't matter. He was only mentioned because he hasn't been proven to be as strong as either DeVille or Cypha. Here's another wowzer: Veyron pretty much tanked Thoma's Silver Hammer without damage. Erio damaged him with his Strike Cannon. Huh? Any explanations for that? |
2012-06-23, 12:49 | Link #242 |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie
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Yeah but the moments leading up to it made him look far more dangerous to fight than Cypha. Considering they all apparently have individual powers, though, ranking them without official info is probably pretty hard.
And because Touma was obviously floundering around in that first fight, since he'd never done anything like that before? He'd probably beat Veyron up now. |
2012-06-23, 12:56 | Link #243 |
Adeptus Animus
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Age: 36
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Defensive spells have been shown repeatedly to completely halt the enemy attack, regardless of the caster's physical strength. This falls under secondary special powers, something that is often ignored (either consciously or unconsciously) for the simple reason knows as "plot hole." Nanoha has shown all signs of superior defense, but no signs of superior physical power apart from this one time. She often outright avoids melee, something that would make little sense if superior defense = superior strength.
Also, Nanoha used magic to telekinetically keep Teana afloat. If a reason must be found as to why Nanoha wasn't thrown backwards (and I sincerely believe there isn't), I would start there before claiming she has high physical strength. In short? I'm not buying that Nanoha has S-rank strength just by virtue of having S-rank magic. Mainly because of Hayate, who as far as I can see, Hayate is the best example of this (Could you elaborate on why you think she's a crappy example?). She has a shit-ton of mana, but can't do squat with it in melee, proving that magic is like any other skill: It has different specialization which require actual training to master. Just like a pro-runner isn't automatically a pro-boxer, someone with very powerful ranged spells won't automatically be stronger in melee. Back to Subaru, I remember Subaru tossing Nove around like a ragdoll when she went full-cyborg rage on her. And in Vivid both use magic, so it's logical they crawled back to equal level. And yes, I am positive magic is not accounted for in the ranks the numbers were given, as they were specifically stated not to use magic, and their ranks in physical power were specifically stated to be the result of cyborg enhancement. Now, on to Zest (wow, we're busting out the entire cast aren't we?) endurance has rather much to do with it. A punch can be done with a burst of strength. Lifting something is when endurance comes peeking around the corner. Zest is actually a good example of this: He curbstomped Vita with his full-drive, but this was a burst of strength limited to only a very short amount of time. Good for one attack, but unsustainable in the long run. Now as for your last statement... hoo boy, rather generalizing. Total strength? No. Not at this point. Physical? The aforementioned calculation. Apart from her cyborg rank + magic rank? No. There are no on-screen examples of her physical strength surpassing that of Fate or the Wolkenritter. StikerS was rather lacking in "ooh" and "ahh" in general, and the soundstages unless they actually talk about what happens don't really show anything, leaving our imagination to fill in most blanks, with all subjectivity thereof. Subaru did tank a high explosive howitzer shot though, which was rather awesome to listen to. |
2012-06-23, 13:24 | Link #244 | ||||
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Age: 34
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The way she gained her magic and the specific reason why she's rather limited (her high mana reserves make it hard to process the energy quickly). It doesn't apply to other mages. Hayate is a extremely special case, no "and"'s or "but"'s about it. She can't be fairly compared to anyone and no way would she prove the rule you believe magic follows under. No one in the verse has such a discrepancy in strength and magical output - S+ Rank Magic, yet would lose to Caro in a fight. And we also aren't fully aware as to why she sucks at melee. Zest was dying and sick, my dude. That's the only reason why Full Drive wasn't sustainable. He's actually a pretty terrible example, unless you believe devices can only achieve their most powerful form for seconds. There's no reason to believe lifting and striking, both being achieved through the same power, would be differ for all mages other than Vita. That's something you have to prove. My reasoning works with less assumptions. Last edited by VezSketch; 2012-06-23 at 14:21. |
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2012-06-23, 14:14 | Link #245 | |||||||
The Flame Crussader
Join Date: Aug 2009
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I see you two continued the chat for longer, and i'm mostly on Keroko's side for now i just want to comment on this a bit before continuing:
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Bardiche has proven to be farily more durable than almost every AEC-Equipement showed up to date and the reason probably lays in the fact he actuall CAN rely on Fate's magical output to enhace it's defenses (which will make some sense as those yellow blades look really thin and fragile xDU). The AEC-lack such advantage against EC Drivers and as such keep been ripped appart battle after battle xDU Ok, no to continue with the actual conversation xD Quote:
I think Keroko referrs to the fact Nanoha can use her magic to fly and make things float which will also be used to reduce the speeding force and kinect energy of non-flying mages like Subaru. Without independent flight the power of Subaru's attacks depends mostly on how fast she can run and how hard she can punch, if her motion is cancelled her striking power gets reduced dramatically. Quote:
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Well, we're about to watch "nd Movie A's where we're about to see another possible SS-ranker, Lindy Harlown, engage in actual battle against Signum, of all people, so were about to see if she can break the stigma of SS-rankers being bad meele fighters. Quote:
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It depends, the captains are more powerfull than her because of flight capability, better reach, and bigger variety of spells and strategies. But strenght wise Subaru is just as strong of not stronger than most of them. Probably tied with Vita in being the two physically strongest members of Section Six.
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2012-06-23, 14:32 | Link #246 | ||||
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Age: 34
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2012-06-23, 14:41 | Link #247 | ||||
The Flame Crussader
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Never demonstraed any skill in melee? Check. Got smacked around by a familiar? Check. Have an army of robots to defend herself despite being a SS-ranker? Check. Got trounced by a melee specialist in the G.O.D. game stroryline and specifically referred by said specialist as beign a bad meele fighter? Check. Sorry but evidence is against her xDU Quote:
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2012-06-23, 14:51 | Link #248 | ||||
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And Nanoha was also capable of fighting Vita physically in A's, kind of pokes another hole in this Nanoha is weak argument going on. |
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2012-06-23, 15:01 | Link #249 | ||||
The Flame Crussader
Join Date: Aug 2009
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My english skills are still improving, give me a break xDU Quote:
And by the way, G.O.D runs on an alternate universe under the same rules as the main storyline, and the story was written by Tsuzuki himself so, summing the canon evidence with that of the game's storyline seems to be an enough solid case against Precia's skill in meele xD Quote:
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2012-06-23, 15:16 | Link #250 | |||||||
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Age: 34
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From what I'm getting, Full Drive =/= Limit Break.
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2012-06-24, 13:57 | Link #254 | |
The Flame Crussader
Join Date: Aug 2009
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From the Force Manga thread:
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2012-06-24, 14:08 | Link #255 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Age: 34
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Chrono (he matched Fate's Thunder Smasher and he had a stronger attack before getting Durandal) is pretty powerful in his own right. With Durandal, he was more powerful than Nanoha or Fate (Hayate, too ... probably) and implied to be the leader of his team when they had that mock battle against the Wolkenritter+Hayate at the end of the A's manga. Lindy is presumably very powerful. Eternal Coffin is the most impressive feat in the series by a mage, so it's difficult to say any 'ol Joe could've done it.
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2012-06-24, 14:20 | Link #256 |
The Flame Crussader
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Yeah, that's the point. It's stated by canon itself Chrono isn't as powerfull as Nanoha or Fate but shines trough skill rather than power. It has been demonstrated on S1 and A's with him making accurate ambuches, interventions, and excecuting strategies with perfect timing due to his great skill with shooting magic and binds of various types. He can be the leader of a group for other reasons aside of his power level. He's probably the best strategist among the A's cast (rivalled probably only by Teana) and have enough ability to outsmart skilled and more powerfull opponents like Fate.
Eternal Coffin is undoubtly a humongously powerfull spell which is why i'm questioning this. Was the device already programmed to do all preparations to shoot the spell? What kind of minimal mana-output level is required to fire it? We know Lindy is more than capable to do it (having enough magical power to counter attack Precia's interdimensional bombardement). Chrono's rank is AAA (augmented latter to AAA+), while not as powerfull as the Aces he seems to be pretty powerfull in his own right just as you said so i guess it's safe to assume Durandal at least require AAA-level of magical output to pull off Eternal Coffin.
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2012-07-08, 14:35 | Link #257 | |
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Even then, I've heard that it was necessary for Chrono to know freezing / elemental-manipulation magic to use it properly, which he fortunately did. |
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2012-07-08, 14:49 | Link #259 |
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: mid-childa
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You heard correctly.
Eternal Coffin (A’s DVD6) Freezing magic set in Durandal. By forcing the temperature in the area to extremely low levels, the purpose of this spell is not to cause death in any targets, but to freeze them completely. As one can tell from the name “Eternal Coffin”, when used on a normal living being, the target becomes frozen in a sleep-like state, until the freezing is counteracted by physical means (destruction, heat, etc). Originally an advanced Over-S Rank spell, but because Durandal was tuned to specialize in freezing magic, and because Chrono himself had also easily handled the study and training for temperature manipulation and Mana conversion, Eternal Coffin was activated in its complete form
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2012-07-08, 16:22 | Link #260 | |
Otaku Apprentice
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@Vez: He probably didn't have time for practicing melee while he was researching and gaining knowledge. @Sunder: So all that was needed was to learn how to cast Eternal Coffin (is that only for sealing?)
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