Hyouka - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[rulfo]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

That sounds entirely possible. I mean even if she was literally sick she could still say who the killer was and let them figure out the story from there. But doe sound like she had no choice in anything. Forced to write, forced to write their topic, and forced to make it a movie. I think seeing their first draft of the movie could have made her snap. She put all that effort into writing something she didn't even want to and they still screwed up so many elements of it. Wouldn't be surprised if she just said "I'm done, finish it yourselves."

Exactly... I'm sure she was like how Eba has described her however with the weight of the task and this much objection would likely make anyone rage quit.

My guess now then is that....

Spoiler for theory:

the movie was a total mess and it's downright derailed to the point that Houngou herself didn't want to try and fix the mess. Seemingly impossible to fix or rather seemingly impossible to fit a plausible/worthy solution, Irisu then baits Oreki in order for him to help fix it. Oreki then made a solution which is plausible and worthy. Thing is he was reminded that he forgot about a major detail which he thought then possibly mess up his whole theory/conclusion.

In my opinion the rope or any other detail would probably be useless since IF the movie is derailed at some point then what are the odds of getting THE right solution(Houngou's intention) for it. While I think the script followed the rule that was mentioned earlier, I think the same couldn't be said for the film.

In any case, I think that majority started the film enthusiastically it's just that THAT overflowing enthusiasm and suggestion which steps over the line of the AUTHORITY or pride of someone's hardwork. The one who's overly enthusiastic or very conceited is Haba. And if my theory is true then he's certainly done something to rile Houngou up.

In some way I can relate to it since I've had a problem like this in an amateur school play of mine where I crossed the line between what an actor does and what a director does.

Well that's my theory.

[SRanger]

I loved this episode.

The whole camera-man solution seemed iffy, so I'm really glad it's not considered the actual solution.

Also, Mayaka seems to be also quite cunning, first noted by Satoshi, and then near the end of the episode.

I don't really know what Chitanda was on about at the end, at first I thought she was going to do a love confession or something.

Also, Irisu!!

I'm going to be sad if she doesn't appear again after this arc..

[Vena]

Week by week, I've been getting more and more into this show, and this episode (and promises for the next) have really pulled me in.

Excellent episode.

[Cipher]

I'm ready for the next mystery. I can't find adequate reasons and evidence for my theory from last 2 eps(+rope), but I still support it over others. That is, glasses boy + chose geography + (strange position when summoned + trapdoor(cuts hand somehow, since boy is weak and needs mechanical assistance) + rope + glass)

I don't know why you guys think Irisu is manipulative. I think she's straightforward and approved Houtarou's theory honestly though mistakenly.

Oh yeah, cameraman theory with actors looking at camera for recognition seems iffy. High school film means bad actors means faulty eye focus.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Cipher

I'm ready for the next mystery. I can't find adequate reasons and evidence for my theory from last 2 eps(+rope), but I still support it over others. That is, glasses boy + chose geography + (strange position when summoned + trapdoor(cuts hand somehow, since boy is weak and needs mechanical assistance) + rope + glass)

I don't know why you guys think Irisu is manipulative. I think she's straightforward and approved Houtarou's theory honestly though mistakenly.

Oh yeah, cameraman theory with actors looking at camera for recognition seems iffy. High school film means bad actors means faulty eye focus.

There is no trap door. There once was a wall save and its door fell off and is now resting on the floor. The novel has btw also not mentioned a trapdoor so its not there.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Cipher

I don't know why you guys think Irisu is manipulative. I think she's straightforward and approved Houtarou's theory honestly though mistakenly.

Do we really have to go over this again? One last time. Irisu only wanted Houtarou to be involved, but to get him involved, she manipulated Eru into getting the whole Classics Club involved, which would bring Houtarou along in tow. That was not straightforward. Being straightforward would have been more like asking Eru if she would ask Houtarou if he would help out the class with their movie problem. Thank you but the whole Classics Club is not needed, just that man.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

Do we really have to go over this again? One last time. Irisu only wanted Houtarou to be involved, but to get him involved, she manipulated Eru into getting the whole Classics Club involved, which would bring Houtarou along in tow. That was not straightforward. Being straightforward would have been more like asking Eru if she would ask Houtarou if he would help out the class with their movie problem. Thank you but the whole Classics Club is not needed, just that man.

Not to mention playing to his ego with the constant "you are special" stuff. Could even read into it manipulating the issues Houtarou seems to have with his self-worth. There was nothing straight forward about how Irisu went about this other than asking him out to tea . She manipulated the club and Houtarou himself to get the answers she needed to finish the movie. Can debate a lot of things in regards to her motives and morals, but the fact that manipulation happened doesn't seem to be debatable here.

[Cipher]

My comprehension of "manipulative" is that it is subtle. Was it not glaringly obvious, even for the classics members themselves, that when Irisu asked them to find the culprit in the film that she was actually asking Houtarou primarily? They know, from all past mysteries, who was solving the mystery. Houtarou's identity is pretty much already the equivalent of mystery-solver. Also, my comment was directed at the idea that Irisu was setting Houtarou for failure when she recognized his theory. I think she just mistakenly but honestly believed Houtarou.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

There is no trap door. There once was a wall save and its door fell off and is now resting on the floor. The novel has btw also not mentioned a trapdoor so its not there.

Any chance that the novel and the anime have different stories? If not, then I rest my case.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Cipher

My comprehension of "manipulative" is that it is subtle.

From the Oxford on-line dictionary:

manipulative:

"characterized by unscrupulous control of a situation or person: she was sly, selfish, and manipulative"

I think that this fits Irisu to a tee, especially the "unscrupulous control" bit. From the same dictionary:

unscrupulous:

"having or showing no moral principles; not honest or fair."

Nope. Nothing at all to do with subtlety.

Was it not glaringly obvious, even for the classics members themselves, that when Irisu asked them to find the culprit in the film that she was actually asking Houtarou primarily?

But she did not start off by asking them to find the culprit in the film. At first, she invited [manipulated] Eru and the whole Classics Club to a screening to give their opinion of a movie that class 2-F was making. She was not upfront and straight forward with Eru, just using [manipulating] her to get the brainiac there. She obviously didn't tell Eru the whole story, otherwise why not simply ask her, in a non-manipulative way, to ask the brainiac to come alone? It may have been obvious right from the start for you, though there was no mention as to why she wanted them to screen the movie until after they had done so.

Really, if all she wanted was the brainiac's opinion, why involve the whole Classics Club to begin with? If she had really been straight forward, the very least she could have done was to tell Eru that she wanted the brainiac's opinion on the movie, and ask her if she could bring him to a screening.

[Triple_R]

I think that Irisu's "manipulative" nature is getting blown a bit out of proportion.

It's not like she swindled Oreki out of money, or talked him into doing things that would typically be against his moral beliefs and/or harmful to others.

She just went through the Classics Club to cajole Oreki into helping her in a way that had no more impact on him than costing him a few hours of free-time. (I think that "cajole" is a more accurate term for it than "manipulate")

And did the rest of the Classics Club show any actual displeasure over being "used" like this? Eru and Satoshi certainly seemed to enjoy themselves (Satoshi was eager to hear Oreki's theory on who the murderer was). And Mayaka seemed interested at least.

We're talking about a student leader who talked some other students into helping with a school project. That's it. It's no big deal.

Compared to what goes on in the world of politics on a daily basis, this is rather innocent to say the least...


Edit: Besides, if she hadn't gone through the Classics Club to get to Oreki, don't you think the rest of the club would have felt snubbed and/or left out? I know that this is how I would have felt if I was in their shoes. In my opinion, it was to their benefit that Irisu went through them to get to Oreki.

[Hyper]

But what she did is manipulating. I don't think anyone implies that she was ill-meaning, but she manipulated Eru at least. Classic club is not a volunteering club. Sure they might enjoy doing it (though Houtarou clearly doesn't, at least in the beginning), but that does not mean Irisu is doing them a favor by giving them a job. The "cajoling" (this is the first time I've see the word in my life, admittingly) only happened briefly in the beginning of this episode, and it actually didn't work per se. She had to "pressure" him by saying that he was making fun of those without his talent if he say he's lucky. Moreover, she implies that all of their hard work going to waste will be his fault, at least partially, if he did not help because no one else could.

She does not have to left out the rest of the club either. What she should do if she's honest is to tell Eru "Hey, I heard the guy named Oreki in your club is good at solving mysteries. Would you mind pursuing him to help us? Or you could bring him to watch the movie. BTW, the rest of the club can come along too!" But no, what she did is taking advantage of the fact that Eru is a curiosity monster, tell her that you can come and watch the preview. Oh, by the way, why don't you bring, say, three friends along?

It looks fine because the club doesn't really hate it, but what if they don't like it? Time can be expensive. What if they're so busy with getting the draft of "Hyouka" anthology on time and now they have to deal with this? I believe that what she was afraid of actually. Every club is probably busy at this point before the cultural festival, so instead of asking honestly, she decide to pull a trick.

I don't think anyone here trying to say she's a bad person. Well, at least I don't, but the way she does things is manipulative.

[Skane]

A person being manipulative doesn't automatically mean said person is "bad" or "evil". Batman is pretty much "Manipulation Personified" and the vast majority agrees that he is all kinds of awesome and a good man. Manipulation is a tool, it has no inherent alignment.

Cheers.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

Really, if all she wanted was the brainiac's opinion, why involve the whole Classics Club to begin with? If she had really been straight forward, the very least she could have done was to tell Eru that she wanted the brainiac's opinion on the movie, and ask her if she could bring him to a screening.

Originally Posted by Hyper

She does not have to left out the rest of the club either. What she should do if she's honest is to tell Eru "Hey, I heard the guy named Oreki in your club is good at solving mysteries. Would you mind pursuing him to help us? Or you could bring him to watch the movie. BTW, the rest of the club can come along too!" But no, what she did is taking advantage of the fact that Eru is a curiosity monster, tell her that you can come and watch the preview. Oh, by the way, why don't you bring, say, three friends along?

It looks fine because the club doesn't really hate it, but what if they don't like it? Time can be expensive. What if they're so busy with getting the draft of "Hyouka" anthology on time and now they have to deal with this? I believe that what she was afraid of actually. Every club is probably busy at this point before the cultural festival, so instead of asking honestly, she decide to pull a trick.

I don't think anyone here trying to say she's a bad person. Well, at least I don't, but the way she does things is manipulative.

you guys...I'm pretty sure Irisu is informed about Houtarou's uneager attitude. If she approached Houtarou directly, she knows she'll receive a blatant "no." It's also smoother this way because their relationship is formal (from one club to another), which is less awkward than a stranger asking help from another stranger.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Cipher

you guys...I'm pretty sure Irisu is informed about Houtarou's uneager attitude. If she approached Houtarou directly, she knows she'll receive a blatant "no." It's also smoother this way because their relationship is formal (from one club to another), which is less awkward than a stranger asking help from another stranger.

So, are you now admitting that Irisu is manipulative?

[Hyper]

Originally Posted by Cipher

you guys...I'm pretty sure Irisu is informed about Houtarou's uneager attitude. If she approached Houtarou directly, she knows she'll receive a blatant "no." It's also smoother this way because their relationship is formal (from one club to another), which is less awkward than a stranger asking help from another stranger.

Yep, she knows the honest way won't work, or at least she does not think it'll work, or she think it's too risky, etc. So instead, she manipulated them.