Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Texas84]

I'm going to go watch some Minami Ke now and cheer up.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Ryuou

Yeah we don't really know if anything has been done about it: we're never told. But we can assume nothing has as there was no mention of anything from the doctor that checked out Ushio.


Which is kind of what I expected to happen. I'm not expecting a cure; I'm expecting the process of researching it to have started. Don't most rare diseases start off similarly? They have to start somewhere. And it was life threatening. Nagisa was supposed to die at age 5, but miraculously survived. Her illness seems to be very similar to AIDS (in effect, not necessarily the process). AIDS similarly results in people potentially dying from simple colds and fevers, and yet it's been researched for a long time. Granted, the difference in people affected. But that's why I'm not saying that I expect a full-fledged research project to be underway, but the gears should start to move with some calls to other hospitals to check for other patients with similar symptoms. They all probably start out like this. But alas, we're dealing with the weak body/illness plot device, so there's only so much we can really expect.


I actually didn't have any problem really with this one as it was kind of tied into destiny which doesn't feel as contrived.

The thing is rare genetic diseases are usually initially misdiagnosed, and unlike the world of tv dramas such as grey's anatomy and house, these cases are actually complex and if their based in genetics, if there is very little record even with gene mapping a proper diagnosis is hard to come up with, thus you can only created an educated prognosis from the symptons. Also if the person died young, and didn't pass on their genes and the death is ruled natural or isn't investigated further, a history of the genetics is lost. Basically I could go on for pages about the genetics behind on how to study a rare allele/disease causing factor but for brevity, one or two cases of an unknown ailment is not going to get the research done. Genetic mapping is expensive and unless its a severe and wide reaching genetic disorder basic blood tests won't help solve the issue.

[Ryuou]

They didn't diagnose either Nagisa or Ushio though. They simply admitted they had no idea what was wrong with them. And there's no reason to believe that there are only 2 people suffering from it (besides the anime telling us so). Probability won't allow for such a thing to happen. Strange illnesses have to be noted somewhere and brought up from time to time. Similar cases will pop up here and there over time and eventually it'll snowball into some action being taken to further research the illness.

[Ithekro]

It is probably a good thing that the Haruhi-chan episodes have been coming out right after Clannad fets released. A good laugh can heal after many a tears that episodes like many of the last few from Clannad have been.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Ryuou

They didn't diagnose either Nagisa or Ushio though. They simply admitted they had no idea what was wrong with them. And there's no reason to believe that there are only 2 people suffering from it (besides the anime telling us so). Probability won't allow for such a thing to happen. Strange illnesses have to be noted somewhere and brought up from time to time. Similar cases will pop up here and there over time and eventually it'll snowball into some action being taken to further research the illness.

This is not always the case, when dealing with genetics, if the genetic defect is spread across multiple chromosomes then the probability of additional people with the disease during the same time period skyrocket, even in its simplist form rare genetic disorders are hard to study due to crossing over in meiosis. Even with a population of 6 billion, the probabilities for complex genetic disorders in a given population are so low that if a case does happen that they would be able to pool the information is highly unlikely, just due to the logistics of things.

[Ryuou]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

This is not always the case, when dealing with genetics, if the genetic defect is spread across multiple chromosomes then the probability of additional people with the disease during the same time period skyrocket, even in its simplist form rare genetic disorders are hard to study due to crossing over in meiosis. Even with a population of 6 billion, the probabilities for complex genetic disorders in a given population are so low that if a case does happen that they would be able to pool the information is highly unlikely, just due to the logistics of things.

You mean the opposite here right? But time also plays a role in probability. So chances would (slightly) increase. The logistics wouldn't be so difficult as I can't fathom that they don't report and centralize rare illnesses. There have to be researchable reports and cases.

But there's also no guarantee that this is a genetic disorder. What leads you to believe that it is? Just cause it's probably likely?

[Ithekro]

Also remember that Clannad was written before 2004 by people who may or may not have any knowledge on genetics past the high school or basic college understanding from whenever their textbooks were written. It is a basic plot device that has been used for many years. Be it a mystery disease or even a named disease that doesn't work like the real thing, or an older story using a older (now easily prevented or cured) disease, it is still the same plot device.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Ryuou

You mean the opposite here right? But time also plays a role in probability. So chances would (slightly) increase. The logistics wouldn't be so difficult as I can't fathom that they don't report and centralize rare illnesses. There have to be researchable reports and cases.

But there's also no guarantee that this is a genetic disorder. What leads you to believe that it is? Just cause it's probably likely?

Genetic testing takes an assload of money, and pinpoint detection of genetic defects down to the loci, amino acid errors and codon triplets is still ludicrously hard.

[Master Chibi]

1. Fuck this show.

2. Fuck. This. Show.

3. Fuck. This. Show.

4. Fuck. This. Show.

Whoever the hell is behind Clannad can kiss my magnificent white ass.

Let's take one character, shove him into everyone else's damn life, have him fix their problems, grant them all happy endings, and then just fuck him over in the cruelest, most heart wrenching ways possible.

Let's make him feel guilty about his father he hated for half his life.

Let's kill off the woman he fell in love with, that changed his life for the better.

Then, let's have him rot in despair and mental distraught for five damn years as his kid is handled by her parents.

And then, when everything manages to get back on track, when the clouds seems to part, and you finally get those rays of hope to shine upon you as fulfill your duty as a father to the most well behaved, adorable daughter on the planet, we'll kill her too.

The best part? They'll both succumb to some inexplicable, incurable, unidentifiable disease that likely holds connections to this absolutely bullshit alternate fantasy world symbolism that we've been running with the show since the first damn episode.

This is too much. Way, way, way, over the line. It is IMPOSSIBLE that I'm going to accept whatever garbage they hand to us as a link between the 'disease' and them dieing and that girl and her robot. Shoving 2 minute intervals sporadically into the show, and emptying the damn budget into it to make it as shiny and 'meaningful' as possible doesn't do jack shit to make me care about it, I've never given a damn for it because they've never explained it to us. The vague nature of it turned me off the more they waved it around in our face, especially when I actually began to care for the show and what it was doing with its characters. Empty, monotone, droning dialogue never helped matters either.

So, unless Ushio comes back (I don't care if she's a walking undead toddler at this point) I'm just getting ready for the show to feed me ammo that I can throw into my hate machine, because it's been itching for this opportunity for 40+ episodes now.

[Ryuou]

I'm not saying they should jump into genetic research. I'm not delusional about the costs behind it contrary to what some posters seem to believe. I'm looking for the amassing of information on this illness. When you encounter an unknown illness, as a doctor you don't just say "Sorry about that. Have a nice day". You would start looking around for information on it (in, realistically, probably rare cases due to various factors that hamper the system).

[Nosauz]

Chibi chill, theres still another episode, just relax, I suggest you don't play the game lulz

Amassing information is great and all, but if its unknown a general physician can only direct someone to a specialist and because tomoya isn't wealthy him actually being able to see a specialist is rare. Doctors don't just right down symptons and file them away, there no real system for that especially if its unknown.

to answer your previous question, no they would skyrocket, living in the same time period helps because connection can't be made with the snap of a finger, this especially true if you look at it in a statistically relevance issue. Since your sample is based on anecdotal evidence from the past how trust worthy is that data, common symptons could have been overlooked, when you combine the sound medicine and sound statistics behind it time is against genetic understanding.

another note this is why the medical digital database that president obama wants to create is an AWESOME idea, much better than fucking star wars... god Ronald Reagan

[Ryuou]

Amassing information is great and all, but if its unknown a general physician can only direct someone to a specialist and because tomoya isn't wealthy him actually being able to see a specialist is rare.

True. But I never saw the option raised.

Doctors don't just right down symptons and file them away, there no real system for that especially if its unknown.

Not necessarily file them away, but I can't see that nothing is done about it. (Except for small country hospitals). Medical advancement was not facilitated by doctors just forgetting patient's symptoms after they leave, and by not sharing information. But we don't have to continue discussing this anymore as I know I'm asking a bit much. I'm just a little bothered that absolutely no effort was made, it was just game over from the get go.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

*rage*

Whoa. Rage.

You know, I'd just like to mention that this is exactly the mood the creators probably intended. That and sorrow.

I'm glad you actually managed to care about the characters though.

Just wait for next episode. Also, check your PM box in like 5 minutes.

[Ithekro]

I expected that RAGE. Just be glad this isn't Spanish Civil War inspired authors...because then you would definately have a sad ending.

Just think of it this way. If the endng was truely going to be sad, this would have been the last episode. The is one more, thus the chances for some kind of resolution are high. Plus there are two othe episodes after that (we don't have much clue what they are about yet.)

None can escape from the Big Dango Family...Ushio wil make sure of that for Nagisa.

[Reckoner]

No matter what Clannad does next episode, this was just a terrible episode. The episodes since 18 have been downright poor. Rated it a 6/10, and that only because of the well done scenes between Akio and Tomoya (Why KyoAni does not try to go after some more of this subtle drama is beyond me... Episode 17 of this series was possibly the best of Clannad).

My criticism would be mainly targeted at KEY, since they made the source material, but Kyoto Animations does not necessarily deserve to have them as a scape goat. But after seeing what they have done with Munto (DROPPED!!!!), perhaps I do not want to see anything beyond adapting the source material faithfully.

First, this episode was just a repeat of episode 16. There is no justification for this that I would consider reasonable. The last scene was also, as I did even get mocked about earlier in this thread, ripped off from the last scenes of Air. Unimaginative does not even begin to describe how I feel about this.

I do not know why KEY feels that they have to bombard the viewers with the same type of themes and drama, over, and over, and over again. OK, Tomoya's life is tragic; he already lost his mother, spent years on bad terms with his father, lost the love of his life, and now they kill off his daughter? It gets old real fast, and any point that they are trying to make beyond this has sure passed me, or is going to be unimpressive. It is overkill, I lost any sympathy for the characters over the last 3 episodes because of the endless attempts at tear-jerking moments.

Now I am sure they are going to sugar coat this and leave you with a happy and warm feeling when this is all done as, after all, this is KEY's work and they are the ultimate easy bake drama makers. I expect something magical to happen in this show, since well, what KEY show does not have some incredible magic influence its story by the end?

All I know is that the only KEY work I have enjoyed even a reasonable amount has been Kanon 2006, and even that made me go "meh." Because of this, I'm probably never going to pick up another god awful work made my KEY ever again. Clannad is strike three, and they are out of here. My own disbelief of how popular these works were was all that kept me watching.

[Ryuou]

I have to agree that Ushio's death lacked impact for me as it felt repetitive (both within Clannad and with Air). Nagisa's death scene also lacked impact for me for various reasons. But you thought episode 18 was horrible?

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

No matter what Clannad does next episode, this was just a terrible episode. The episodes since 18 have been downright poor. Rated it a 6/10, and that only because of the well done scenes between Akio and Tomoya (Why KyoAni does not try to go after some more of this subtle drama is beyond me... Episode 17 of this series was possibly the best of Clannad).

My criticism would be mainly targeted at KEY, since they made the source material, but Kyoto Animations does not necessarily deserve to have them as a scape goat. But after seeing what they have done with Munto (DROPPED!!!!), perhaps I do not want to see anything beyond adapting the source material faithfully.

First, this episode was just a repeat of episode 16. There is no justification for this that I would consider reasonable. The last scene was also, as I did even get mocked about earlier in this thread, ripped off from the last scenes of Air. Unimaginative does not even begin to describe how I feel about this.

I do not know why KEY feels that they have to bombard the viewers with the same type of themes and drama, over, and over, and over again. OK, Tomoya's life is tragic; he already lost his mother, spent years on bad terms with his father, lost the love of his life, and now they kill off his daughter? It gets old real fast, and any point that they are trying to make beyond this has sure passed me, or is going to be unimpressive. It is overkill, I lost any sympathy for the characters over the last 3 episodes because of the endless attempts at tear-jerking moments.

Now I am sure they are going to sugar coat this and leave you with a happy and warm feeling when this is all done as, after all, this is KEY's work and they are the ultimate easy bake drama makers. I expect something magical to happen in this show, since well, what KEY show does not have some incredible magic influence its story by the end?

All I know is that the only KEY work I have enjoyed even a reasonable amount has been Kanon 2006, and even that made me go "meh." Because of this, I'm probably never going to pick up another god awful work made my KEY ever again. Clannad is strike three, and they are out of here. My own disbelief of how popular these works were was all that kept me watching.

Boohoo, oh wait not that big of a loss. Look if you were expecting realism you really picked the wrong show, and whining about it every week becomes very grating, why are you still watching the show, why are you still bitching to the fans who enjoy the show? I don't understand the mentality other than wanting to dance around the forum going, "key sucks" At least put a critic that could be used not just based on the fact that you find the entire story contrived, the fact that you have to bring up how much you hate the series just serves zero purpose to the discussion of the episode at hand. Oh well you'll be back to bash next weeks episode too so I guess I'll save my rant for next week too.

[thundrakkon]

I am at a loss for words. How can they do this to Tomoya? They have taken everything away from his life. How cruel can they be? He tried to be a good person, and they reward him with despair?!?! What type of life lesson is that?

Anyway, if I recall correctly, Nagisa's illness suddenly came to her. She was healthy, and then bam, she become chronically ill for no real reason. I really hope they explain this sudden illness in the last episode.

If I had to guess,

Spoiler for alternate world and sickness:

Nagisa's soul looks like it was warped and split to this alternate world, and her life force weakened. When she died, she left her soul with Ukio. Ultimately, I think they need to recombine the souls for her to be whole again.

Well, that's my interpretation so far from what I can understand.

This is just so depressing. I just hope that the ending will bring me out of my despair, but done well and not give some convenient plot device to try to make me happy.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Boohoo, oh wait not that big of a loss. Look if you were expecting realism you really picked the wrong show, and whining about it every week becomes very grating, why are you still watching the show, why are you still bitching to the fans who enjoy the show? I don't understand the mentality other than wanting to dance around the forum going, "key sucks" At least put a critic that could be used not just based on the fact that you find the entire story contrived, the fact that you have to bring up how much you hate the series just serves zero purpose to the discussion of the episode at hand. Oh well you'll be back to bash next weeks episode too so I guess I'll save my rant for next week too.

You really like to get on my case now don't you?

Please learn that other posters on this forum are allowed to express opinions different than you are own. I am sorry that I do share the same feelings as the masses of anime fans out there.

And look, I never even mentioned the word "realism" in my post, and go learn some reading comprehension before criticizing how I put no reasons for disliking this show or perhaps KEY in general.

[JPZ]

I did not get the number of the train that just ran me over....