[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[Essenar]

Originally Posted by Essenar

I don't know if you guys watch the anime at the same time, but they just showed the chapter where Madara Uchiha has a conversation with Naruto/Kakashi/Yamato. They left out the part where Kakashi asks, "So you admit you're Uchiha Madara then?"

And we have seen Tobi use some advanced Sharingan techniques when he put Konnan in a Genjutsu that she'll die when she completes.

There is the point that people made that Madara claims to have obtained EMS from taking his brother's eyes but not seemingly having the ability to use EMS.

Here's my theory, take it for what it's worth:
Tobi is not Uchiha Madara. He is Izuna Uchiha. The reason he can't use EMS is because he doesn't have Madara Uchiha's eyes. The reason he has stock of collected Sharingan is because that's how he was able to get his vision/Sharingan capabilities back.

He knows of EMS because he gave his eyes to Madara. This is also why, when Itachi suggested that Madara took Izuna's eyes by force, Tobi argued that Izuna gave them willingly. He was confirming the story from his own accord. The coffin Kabuto pulled has Uchiha Madara's body and that's why Izuna immediately agreed to work with Kabuto. Not only would he not want his real identity revealed, but he would never want to fight even a zombie version of his own brother.

Izuna loved and believed in Madara so much, that it only makes sense for him to avenge his brother's death/carry his lineage. This is also why he doesn't show his face. If he really were Madara, he wouldn't hide his face, he would take pride in showing how he survived all these years. Hiding his face would only make sense tactically and to support his secrecy.

Space/time: Kakashi has someone else's Sharingan. Because of this, it's always activated and his MS allows the manipulation of space/time. I believe, because Tobi has someone else's Sharingan, that is why it is fully activated all the time and he's using the same Space/Time MS Kakashi uses, but he uses it on himself and he's fully developed it.

Either way, this is just my theory. No facts except what we've seen in the manga combined with deduction.

I called it first!!! Muahaha I was right! It was Madara in the coffin!

Here is why it makes sense: It being Izuna makes for the perfect insurrection of what Sasuke is doing as it relates to Izuna/Madara.

Here's what we know:
Madara knows that if you take the eyes of your brother, you develop the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. He admits Madara's brother gave him his eyes, and yet he doesn't have EMS anymore, and he always has to swap out eyes.

We know Izuna survived after giving up his eyes and wandered around blind.

What we can connect from these facts to Tobi being Izuna:

We can figure that Izuna had no eyes and he probably captured other Uchiha's eyes to use for himself. This is why he can not perform EMS and why he constantly sacrifices eyes for Izanagi and is seemingly limited in his Sharingan capabilities.

While the manga and Tobi/history have suggested that Izuna died in battle later, characters in this series are more than capable of faking their death/hiding their death. It can be assumed that Izuna survived his close encounter with death and after learning of his brother dying in battle, opted to leave the village in anger for how they betrayed his brother.

WHY IT IS NOT FUTURE SASUKE:
Where is the EMS? Why would he agree to giving up himself? Why would Itachi not figure it out? Why would he not only ALLOW the Uchiha massacre to take place, but he would not even attempt to stop it? It just does not make any sense. There is no way he would allow all the events to unfold that led to all his hatred and there is no way he would allow Itachi to die. The whole can not change history argument falls here as well because, lets face it, he is already changing history if he came back to unleash hell.

WHY IT IS NOT OBITO:
At this point, there is a strong argument for Obito, but again, it does not make sense. I think maybe Kishimoto was swinging in that direction but there are a lot of reasons it fails. The first is that the time lines do not match up. Obito died a very short time before the Nine Tails event and even the flashbacks show a fully grown man exchanging in battle with Minato. It would not make any sense that he was able to develop that much battle knowledge and skill in such a short time frame. Why would Obito hate the village? He loved the leaf village and had no qualms with them.

[Kallen4life]

how did Izuna survive for so long ?

Spoiler for spoiler lol:

the whole "I'm a shell of my former self and aim to become complete" + the fact that BOTH Tobi and edo!Madara expected to have Rinne-tensei used on them/him (in Tobi's case I assume it means he meant for it to be used on hairy Madara to revive him properly for good, non-zombie and then they merge or something) leads me to believe that Tobi is somehow a part of Madara .. soulless maybe (hey, Sammy from Supernatural did it) or a split like Muu or split via izanagi or something else

BUT Izuna theory is plausible, yeah .. pretty much the only other option .. the stupid Obito theories aren't viable, at best his dead body was used as Tobi's body, but even that has glaring holes

P.S. Why the HELL is this a [general] and not a [manga] thread ?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

P.S. Why the HELL is this a [general] and not a [manga] thread ?

Someone asked for anime fans to be able to participate in the discussion...

Considering the recent revelations (which really aren’t that revealing at all) I will probably revert the thread...though many other general threads have been able to exist quite easily as so long as everyone uses spoiler tags...

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Essenar

WHY IT IS NOT OBITO:
At this point, there is a strong argument for Obito, but again, it does not make sense. I think maybe Kishimoto was swinging in that direction but there are a lot of reasons it fails. The first is that the time lines do not match up. Obito died a very short time before the Nine Tails event and even the flashbacks show a fully grown man exchanging in battle with Minato. It would not make any sense that he was able to develop that much battle knowledge and skill in such a short time frame. Why would Obito hate the village? He loved the leaf village and had no qualms with them.

The Obito theory has been popular with fans for a long time but it makes absolutely no sense for the reasons you suggested.

Obito is a friend of Kakashi's who significantly influenced his current philosophy on life.

Obito is really of no relevance to the current story.

He gave his Sharingan eye to Kakashi and died leaving Kakashi to learn important life lessons that he passed on to Team 7 but that's it.

There's no reason for him to have a grudge against Konoha.

There's no indication that he had the potential to become so powerful.

He would not have been old enough to be the Tobi who attacked Minato and released Kyuubi.

He has nothing do to with Madara and Kishimoto has not dropped a single hint that he is connected to Madara.

This whole theory is based on Obito and Madara both having one Sharingan eye and both having short, spiky hair.

[Aquillion]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

how did Izuna survive for so long ?

The same way we assumed Madara did (see c545, pg 5-6.) Whoever the man in the mask is, he definitely has the First's cells and can use them to extend his life.

[SheIsMySiN]

Well it is too early to tell who the Masked Man really is.

But 1 thing is certain, in order to control Sharingan and Rinnengan he has to be a descendant of The Sage Of The Six Paths, in otherwords a Senju or Uchiha.

[Hiking_Bear]

The Tobi=Uchiha Izuna Thoery needs more work IMO. What it has going for it is that Izuna would share the same motives as Madara. But there's not much more of a basis than that. One problem is that Izuna, if he were alive, would be a really old man. We know that Tobi is at least partially made up of Zetsu goo (arm and hand), but Tobi=Izuna doesnt address the question of why Tobi would be missing those limbs. Izuna Theory also does not answer the question of where Tobi's warping Sharingan came from (as Izuna had given both of his eyes to Madara). And Tobi's first appearance predates the Uchiha massacre (so Madara didn't have his collection of Sharingan yet).

I don't think Izuna is anything more than a plot device that only appeared in a couple pages to explain how Madara got EMS.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

I don't think Izuna is anything more than a plot device that only appeared in a couple pages to explain how Madara got EMS.

I tend to agree, but the same was also said of Shisui and Kishimoto still decided to make him (or at least Shisui's abilities) into a pivotal plot point later in the series.

I do expect Izuna to make a reappearance; the only question is whether he will come back as a flashback character (in another Madara flashback) or something else.

[Kallen4life]

it's possible Tobi's space-time lol_flushing & phasing doesn't require sharingan at all .. after all, Minato has a high-mastery of space-time jutsu (in a different way with no phasing, but his allows insane combat-speed) and he has no sharingan


I agree that Izuna theory isn't perfect and i personally don't buy it, but it's hell of a lot better then Obito theory

[Hiking_Bear]

Personally, I think that Tobi was created by Zetsu out of Obito's remains and Madara's implanted memories. Remember that Zetsu has the ability to record what he sees and show it to others. Something like uploading his memories to others. So, it's not out of the question to suspect that Zetsu could have uploaded Madara's memories into Obito's body to create Tobi. Tobi would then think of himself as being Madara, but still realize that his actual soul had died and would need to be resurrected with RinneTensei.

This explanation would answer several questions - why Tobi is missing body parts; why his first appearance chronologically is during the 9-tails attack; why his sharingan has a warping ability similar to Kamui; why Zetsu referred to Tobi as a good boy.

[Kallen4life]

I can buy Obito's body being somehow used - kamui and tobi's phasing/teleport are somewhat similar

still a stretch

[Aquillion]

Obito makes no sense at all. The only reason his name even comes up is because back when Tobi was introduced, there were so few named characters who would have had a Sharingan, right? So people made the connection based on conservation of detail.

There's way more now, so there's no particular reason to think Obito is even remotely involved in any way. I mean, nowadays, everyone and their dog has a Sharingan. Or a Sharingan in their arm. Or a proto-Sharingan in their pet raven, or whatever.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

The Tobi=Uchiha Izuna Thoery needs more work IMO. What it has going for it is that Izuna would share the same motives as Madara. But there's not much more of a basis than that. One problem is that Izuna, if he were alive, would be a really old man. We know that Tobi is at least partially made up of Zetsu goo (arm and hand), but Tobi=Izuna doesnt address the question of why Tobi would be missing those limbs. Izuna Theory also does not answer the question of where Tobi's warping Sharingan came from (as Izuna had given both of his eyes to Madara). And Tobi's first appearance predates the Uchiha massacre (so Madara didn't have his collection of Sharingan yet).

I don't think Izuna is anything more than a plot device that only appeared in a couple pages to explain how Madara got EMS.

i agree. if izuna did find a way to prolong his life and maintain his seemingly youthful body, then how come madara didn't try this method out himself? why did he die and his brother didn't? why let his brother get all the action while he allows himself to die and just rely on someone else to resurrect him? the izuna theory doesn't make sense to me at all.

[SheIsMySiN]

As far as I got it and Tobi said this himself a couple of times "everyone thought Madara got killed by the 1st Hokage" maybe in fact he did die in the fight.

[Essenar]

And not one person gave me credit for calling the casket body as the real Madara. A lot of good predictions go uncredited here I suppose.

GUYS! I just thought of something. Another prediction coming. I think everyone might be right about it being Obito's body. But I am about to give much different reasoning for it. And for the record, I am predicting now that Tobi =/ Madara. I think he's someone else.

This is something no one else has brought up:
So, what do we know about the time line with Madara and Konoha?
We know that Madara attacked Konoha village because Kushina's seal was weakening with the birth of Naruto and he wanted to use this opportunity to take over the Nine Tails and attack the leaf village.

But wait! Why wouldn't he have done this before? He had supposedly been lurking throughout the years, why wouldn't he attack Konoha when the host before Kushina was about to pass away or lose the seal? Or the host before that? Because he couldn't. Because he did not have a body. The bolts/missing parts of Tobi's body line up perfectly with Obito's missing parts. So here's what we can gather as a possibility: Prior to Obito dying, whoever this soul is (It's not Madara. Let's get that clear right now.) had no body to use for his goals. At least, not a body worth using.

While it's somewhat a stretch, it makes sense. Up until Obito's death, the Uchiha were a prized race of the Konoha village, protected with the utmost diligence. It was to the point where stings and raids were staged to attack Konoha just hoping to kill one Uchiha and take their eyes. However, with Obito, the body of an Uchiha was not only left unrecovered, but it was also abandoned and forgotten. Perfect opportunity. No one will search for a body covered in rocks that was assuming to be crushed completely.

How could Izuna/This empty soul use a body that was crushed? Zetsu parts is one explanation. The eyebrows on Tobi look very similar to Obito's. Plus the hair style. So maybe a combination of Living Corpse Reincarnation and Hashirama's DNA led to this zombie creation of Obito's remains with Zetsu parts and the soul of seemingly Izuna.

My only grudge:
Kakashi has kind of fallen by the way side as far as Madara's goals. If it's Obito's body, I would at least assume one of the panels from 559 would at least show his face with him expressing his confusion. The only real connection between Obito and the current events is Kakashi and they almost completely ignored him.

I think it's Izuna.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Essenar

I called it first!!! Muahaha I was right! It was Madara in the coffin!

Originally Posted by Essenar

And not one person gave me credit for calling the casket body as the real Madara. A lot of good predictions go uncredited here I suppose.

Don't pout, here's a cookie.
And you could also consider the fact that many many people were already calling it a year before you did.

[HasuMasu]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

Personally, I think that Tobi was created by Zetsu out of Obito's remains and Madara's implanted memories. Remember that Zetsu has the ability to record what he sees and show it to others. Something like uploading his memories to others. So, it's not out of the question to suspect that Zetsu could have uploaded Madara's memories into Obito's body to create Tobi. Tobi would then think of himself as being Madara, but still realize that his actual soul had died and would need to be resurrected with RinneTensei.

This explanation would answer several questions - why Tobi is missing body parts; why his first appearance chronologically is during the 9-tails attack; why his sharingan has a warping ability similar to Kamui; why Zetsu referred to Tobi as a good boy.

To be honest, I really don't know why they
would resort to using Obito's body, a body
of a child who was crushed under some rock
missing one of his eyes, when they could've
used any other Uchiha since they were all
still alive at the time.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Essenar

And not one person gave me credit for calling the casket body as the real Madara. A lot of good predictions go uncredited here I suppose.

that's because a lot of people thought so too. just like a lot of people thought that the itachi crow is some sort of a counter for sasuke's genjutsu.

I think it's Izuna.

i just wonder how stupid could he be to willingly give his eyes to his brother, and go through all this effort just to raise him. he must have a serious man-crush on madara to do all this. itachi's sacrifice for sasuke is enough.

To be honest, I really don't know why they
would resort to usinder some rock
missing one of his eyes, when thg Obito's body, a body
of a child who was crushed uney could've
used any other Uchiha since they were all
still alive at the time.

my thoughts exactly.

[MysticNinjaJay]

I think Tobi's true identity must be interesting and unexpected for it to be worth any sort of attention.

Is Tobi some sort of manifestation of Uchiha Madara like the teenage Tom Riddle was to Lord Voldemort in Harry Potter or is he in fact a fraud pretending to be Madara?

I find it hard to believe that Tobi is nothing but a fraud.

At the same time if he is just Madara in another form why all the secrecy about his face? What is he hiding?

What's become apparent is that the "real" Madara died.

Edo Tensei reanimates the body and binds the soul of the dead which requires the remains of a corpse so the Madara that was known to the living did in fact die.

Tobi is probably some sort of manifestation of Madara that cannot yet fully take on human form hence he is a shell of his former self that somehow has the personality and memories of Uchiha Madara but developed a consciousness and agenda separate from the will of the deceased Madara.

My best guess is that Tobi used some sort of special space-time jutsu to survive the battle with the 1st Hokage and with the help of Zetsu was given a body that is not quite solid but enabled him to remain in the world of the living. Possibly his soul was split in two leaving one Madara in his original body that eventually died and the other in the body of Tobi which cannot fully retain the powers of Madara.

[Kallen4life]

this is Tobi

Spoiler for BEWARE - RISK OF DEATH: