Kami nomi/TWGOK - Anime Spoilers & Speculation (for manga readers only)

[Traece]

Originally Posted by novalysis

I'd like to make a comment on the recent anime only viewers discussion, pertaining to the skipped material. There's an annoying myth there that the girls skipped were all generic cookie cutter capture targets, not very distinguishable from the previous two cour worth of targets.

It's not a myth. Garnishing those girls with "OH BUT THERE WERE THESE DIFFICULT CHALLENGES ASSOCIATED!" is a myth. In one case it's a complete fabrication. The swimmer had no challenges whatsoever. It was beyond straightforward. Nor would I say that the Shogi player or the Cook were particularly challenging. They were slightly unique, but again rather straightforward in the end.

Tsukiyo was a capture that Keima struggled with, had unique supernatural elements to it, and the first hint we have after Tenri of the goddesses. It was also one of the first arcs where failure actually appeared to be a very real possibility.
The Yui arc plays with the reversal of gender roles wittily.

These are the arcs that people are upset about being skipped. This is what people are talking about. There have been a couple people who have expressed distaste that the other characters were skipped, but they're very much a minority. By the way, failure was expressed to be possible in Kanon's arc, which you'll recall was extremely early in the series. These skipped girls weren't even close to the first example.

Tsukiyo and Yui have, since this episode aired, been the subject of much complaint due to their having been skipped specifically because they are tied to the main story. We're all very aware of this.

Additionally, there's also exposition and development of characters unrelated to each of these captures that has been missed because they weren't shown. However, that development and that exposition could have easily been fit in elsewhere. Yet again, the issue is that they picked a poor place to start for the sake of trying to animate as much of the goddesses arc as they possibly could.

The issue that needs to be understood is that they can not make a season of TWGOK to devote specifically to capturing new girls no matter how strange or new their situation is. Even as a manga reader, I would much rather see them focus on the main plot of TWGOK and have it continue to accrue a fanbase rather than them waste their time producing a season of more of the same.

I don't agree with them skipping Tsukiyo and Yui, and I know the majority of manga readers will reciprocate that. Claiming that the other girls weren't more of the same capturing is just silly though. A lot of the "unique challenges" and this so-called breaching of the simple design of TWGOK's story and making it not just about making the capture targets fall in love is perceived.

[MeoTwister5]

Anime only viewers are already assuming that the skipped over girls are not essential parts of the Goddess arc, which is far from the truth because Yui and Tsukiyo were skipped, so anyone hoping for a better background on the previous Goddess host captures will be in for a disappointment.

Probably a good chunk of this is as to why Yui crossdresses in particular.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Anime only viewers are already assuming that the skipped over girls are not essential parts of the Goddess arc, which is far from the truth because Yui and Tsukiyo were skipped, so anyone hoping for a better background on the previous Goddess host captures will be in for a disappointment.

Probably a good chunk of this is as to why Yui crossdresses in particular.

Which is strange because as someone pointed out the opening clearly shows every goddess (except the red herring).

Monir I think missed that detail in the opening. People shouldn't be coming to the conclusion that Tsukiyo and Yui weren't goddesses.

I maintain that we'll likely be exposed to background on Yui and Tsukiyo through flashbacks or exposition. The good part is that in reality Yui and Tsukiyo even as goddesses don't really play a huge role. Even though Tsukiyo is one of my favorite she is, sadly, under appreciated in terms of screen time.

[MeoTwister5]

Well assuming a greater adherence to the source, we'll be expecting that a good chunk of the season will focus on Ayumi, Yui and Shiori. Ayumi in particular.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Well assuming a greater adherence to the source, we'll be expecting that a good chunk of the season will focus on Ayumi, Yui and Shiori. Ayumi in particular.

Pretty much. Ayumi, Shiori, and Chihiro get the brunt of the screen time before the avengers are assembled.

Yui in particular does get a fair bit of screen time as well, however she gets it in her new form. Iirc, Yui is pretty much a different character post-capture and because of this her capture being skipped isn't a huge deal. That's the one consolation here. Granted she starts to really exhibit those alpha and masculine qualities during, but it's in the post-capture that she goes full-on alpha male all up and down everything.

The new watchers who aren't familiar with the manga will perhaps think they've missed out on this Yui character, but in reality they're really not.

Ayumi and Chihiro will certainly get the most screentime though, like they did in the manga. Shori presents a bit of a challenge but is really just won by repetitive visiting over the course. Tsukiyo is very quick, and got passed over pretty quickly. Yui was sort of the same, and she mostly trolls the rest of the arc. The Goddesses Arc from what I recall really favored Ayumi and Chihiro over everyone because of the dynamics there.

[Xero8420]

How come Lune appeared as that stalker instead of Fiore?

[XLNC]

Damn, are they really trying to finish the whole arc in just 12 episodes?

I just saw it from the official website. Seeing that pic made me feel conflicted: on one hand, it's now certain that they'll skim at least 5 chapters in the next episode, on the other, it will be some good Haqua service next episode.

P.S. I wonder how they'll animate this one:

Spoiler for manga pic:

considering I still don't know if it went in or not.

[MeoTwister5]

Somehow I don't want to know what it is you say that went in.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Somehow I don't want to know what it is you say that went in.

I believe he's referring to Keima's complete lack of interest in females.

It penetrated Haqua's heart like a spiked arrowhead. She will surely express large amounts of resentment towards him as a result of this!

The thing about "skimming X chapters in..." is that in the case of TWGOK, they could easily go through several volumes in minutes. The artist employs a lot of reaction shots, and some of the exposition does take up more than a single volume. Especially in the goddesses arc the compression from text to actual spoken word is going to make a huge difference. For example, it's about there are about two and one half volumes between us and Keima and Haqua beginning the hunt for the goddesses. Most of that is dialogue and I wouldn't be surprised if they could faithfully reproduce most of that conversation in the span of five minutes, or at least less than half the length of the episode.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Traece

Snip

I think you completely misunderstand my point.

I am not insisting that all Eight arcs were unique and difficult challenges for Keima Katsuragi. The myth that I'm trying to attack here is that all Eight arcs were plot unimportant, and universally generic, similar and followed the standard Kami-nomi formula of the early arcs.

I concede that the Shogi player, the Cook and the Swimmer were very conventional plots. Even then though, these three arcs featured slight deviations from the standard formula.

The remaining five arcs however were very unusual by TGWOK standards, and broke the standard mold of expectations, OR were very plot important.

I hope you are not claiming that it's a myth that Akari, Reiko or Hinoki arcs proceeded just like all the other arcs. These three semi plot relevant arcs (Reiko informs the readers about the end game of Spirit possession, if I am not wrong) were highly unusual arcs in themselves - they hardly obeyed the conventional TGWOK mold.

And it goes without saying that Yui and Tsukikko arcs were vital arcs, and until Tsukkiko, Keima never came this close to failing a Capture, while Yui Goido was not resolved through Keima's agency, but Yui's. Neither of these arcs obeyed the conventional "Keima get's to know the girls better, Keima can see the ending, Keima completes the capture" which is what I am presuming anime only viewers are referring to when talking about a standard TGWOK formula.

Nor was I arguing for these arcs to be animated. I acknowledge the argument that they couldn't afford to animate all of those arcs, given how bad the previous seasons sales were. All I am arguing against is the irritating claim that all these arcs were skipped because they were more of the same, or even worse, plot unimportant. Five of the Eight arcs did not follow the standard TGWOK formula. However, I concede that the remaining three are as guilty as charged.

I am not advocating that these Eight Arcs SHOULD have gotten a season of their own. I never claimed in my original post that these arcs should have filled a season. All I am saying is that at least five of the Eight arcs does not meet the preconception that the skipped arcs were generic.

However, Five of the Eight arcs in my opinion deserve priority for OVAs, at least. Yui and Tsukkiko are plot important, while Akari, Reiko and Hinoki defied Keima's conventional tactics, and were very different stories from the rest of the arcs.

Now, let me pose a hypothetical situation. Had Madhouse decided to adapt those five arcs (Tsukkiko, Yui, Reiko, Hinoki and Akari) while passing over the other three, I suspect most viewers would have acknowledged those five arcs were a major and refreshing shift away from the traditional TGWOK formula, rather than cookie cutters of the previous seasons. It also sets up Keima's character for the further character development, that culminates in the conclusion of Ayumu's role in the goddess arc.

As it is, at the end of this season, I foresee people screaming DEUS EX MACHINA ending at Akari leading the Calvary and saving the day. Never mind that in the skipped materials, especially in the Hinnoki and Akari arcs, that outcome was sufficiently telegraphed in advanced that I don't recall manga readers screaming Deus Ex Machina. Of course, Madhouse might surprise me with intelligent adaptation decisions to avoid that - perhaps Akari becomes more active here, and becomes the counter to a more active Lune in the third season.

That's not the worse of it. Yui Goido and Tsukkiko is probably going to trigger alot of questions for anime original viewers, unless Madhouse does it well, perhaps through flashbacks.

And the conclusion of Ayumu's arc? Since we don't see Keima's slow character development throughout the previous Eight arcs preceding the goddess arc, I can't see anime original viewers really feeling for the ending, in the manner that manga readers did. In-fact, someone is going to claim thirteen weeks from now that Keima's behavior there.... is OOC, rather than the climax of his character development over the past 100 chapters, starting from Tenri onwards, or perhaps even from Haqua's arc onwards. Again, Madhouse could pull of a surprise here, but it'll need some excellent adaptation decisions to make the viewers buy that ending, without the skipped arcs.

Another thing that anime viewers might not appreciate is just how real the possibility of failure actually seemed at the start of the goddess arc. By the point Kanon was snapped, we've seen Keima come very close to failing, most of all in the Hinoki arc. It's a relatively minor point - it's overshadowed by Keima committing to the greatest challenge so far in TGWOK.

Speaking of which, if TGWOK ever got a movie, Hinoki's arc is probably the most suited of the arcs, if only for it's over the top ending battle, and just how close run the whole affair was for Keima. When Hinoki turned godzilla size, I really doubted Keima's ability to actually succeed, and wondered just how he was going to win against that FUBAR situation.

[Traece]

Spoiler for Because I use spoiler tags for lots of words: My response.:

Originally Posted by novalysis

I hope you are not claiming that it's a myth that Akari, Reiko or Hinoki arcs proceeded just like all the other arcs. These three semi plot relevant arcs (Reiko informs the readers about the end game of Spirit possession, if I am not wrong) were highly unusual arcs in themselves - they hardly obeyed the conventional TGWOK mold.

Reiko wasn't particularly special. It was strange and unique, but really had no relevance on the primary plot. From the very start it was the mystery of Hell and Keima's role in it pushing into the Weiss plot and the Goddesses. Keima has always been seeking answers to deep questions about why he's in his situation. Any information Reiko passed didn't really pertain to these questions.

And it goes without saying that Yui and Tsukikko arcs were vital arcs, and until Tsukkiko, Keima never came this close to failing a Capture, while Yui Goido was not resolved through Keima's agency, but Yui's. Neither of these arcs obeyed the conventional "Keima get's to know the girls better, Keima can see the ending, Keima completes the capture" which is what I am presuming anime only viewers are referring to when talking about a standard TGWOK formula.

First off there's really no point in discussing the uniqueness of Yui. Beyond body switching, I might add, that capture was very much standard. Technically the formula of "getting to know them, loooove~" was still present. It was just flipped and rearranged in an unexpected manner. At the end of the day the majority of us wish it had been animated so discussing it further is out of the question.

One would argue that Tsukiyo was never really coming close to having been a failure. In fact, Yui would have been the example to use there. Tsukiyo was about as far along in failure as Kanon was. Keima wasn't really flying by the seat of his pants, and the mechanism of failure was something he took advantage of to seek an easier conclusion. Again, Tsukiyo is quite relevant to the plot and again a character that should have been included at some point prior to season 3 (and she's also one of my personal favorites). No point in talking about it really.

However, Five of the Eight arcs in my opinion deserve priority for OVAs, at least. Yui and Tsukkiko are plot important, while Akari, Reiko and Hinoki defied Keima's conventional tactics, and were very different stories from the rest of the arcs.

Hinoki Kasuga was the interesting one. The whole giant thing was a bit weird. Honestly, everything about that arc was just strange and inconceivable. The only really unique thing here was that it was an issue of sisterhood, and not so much an issue of love. Admittedly that's a new feature that had yet to appear, but it has absolutely zero relevance for the goddesses arc and beyond. Maybe some people liked that arc, but at the end of the day I don't recall much relevance at all to make it worthy of animation.

Akari is kind of an interesting one. She was really a rather minor character in retrospect. Her "arc" wasn't really that long and didn't have a vast amount of content. That one is hard to call.

Now, let me pose a hypothetical situation. Had Madhouse decided to adapt those five arcs (Tsukkiko, Yui, Reiko, Hinoki and Akari) while passing over the other three, I suspect most viewers would have acknowledged those five arcs were a major and refreshing shift away from the traditional TGWOK formula, rather than cookie cutters of the previous seasons. It also sets up Keima's character for the further character development, that culminates in the conclusion of Ayumu's role in the goddess arc.

As it is, at the end of this season, I foresee people screaming DEUS EX MACHINA ending at Akari leading the Calvary and saving the day. Never mind that in the skipped materials, especially in the Hinnoki and Akari arcs, that outcome was sufficiently telegraphed in advanced that I don't recall manga readers screaming Deus Ex Machina. Of course, Madhouse might surprise me with intelligent adaptation decisions to avoid that - perhaps Akari becomes more active here, and becomes the counter to a more active Lune in the third season.

Akari's "capture" being skipped jeopardizes exactly none of this. The majority of the allusion made by her character is done by this arc. It's during the events of the goddess arc that she appears in the background and does things. Not before.

That's not the worse of it. Yui Goido and Tsukkiko is probably going to trigger alot of questions for anime original viewers, unless Madhouse does it well, perhaps through flashbacks.

Of this I have no doubt. Same with the majority of us, I'm sure.

And the conclusion of Ayumu's arc? Since we don't see Keima's slow character development throughout the previous Eight arcs preceding the goddess arc, I can't see anime original viewers really feeling for the ending, in the manner that manga readers did. In-fact, someone is going to claim thirteen weeks from now that Keima's behavior there.... is OOC, rather than the climax of his character development over the past 100 chapters, starting from Tenri onwards, or perhaps even from Haqua's arc onwards. Again, Madhouse could pull of a surprise here, but it'll need some excellent adaptation decisions to make the viewers buy that ending, without the skipped arcs.

I'm very confused by this paragraph. A lot of Keima's visible character growth comes from Kanon's predicament. In the events up to this arc he remains largely distant from the girls he's saved and seeks out his normal life. It's not until this arc that he starts to admit to the presence of this burden and the responsibilities he has. There may have been slight growth and some small revelations, but nothing so substantial that viewers would cry foul on the upcoming events with Ayumi. Besides, even in retrospect Keima has always been very extreme with Ayumi. You'll recall that his methods with her the first time were pretty insane.

Another thing that anime viewers might not appreciate is just how real the possibility of failure actually seemed at the start of the goddess arc. By the point Kanon was snapped, we've seen Keima come very close to failing, most of all in the Hinoki arc. It's a relatively minor point - it's overshadowed by Keima committing to the greatest challenge so far in TGWOK.

Again though, his only close call that wasn't animated is Tsukiyo and even that's moderately debatable. Kanon was the original near-failure, and she was in the first season. Not to mention she's just been stabbed. The issue of failure has always been present. Missing out on those characters doesn't make it any less clear. In the next episode I believe Keima is to have his monologue about exactly this subject, so yet more reason why this shouldn't be an issue.

In the end, a lot of these issues are really blowing things a bit out of proportion.

Nobody is saying that this material is completely and totally irrelevant, and that it wont harm the capabilities of the staff in this season. However, beyond Tsukiyo and Yui the effect isn't nearly as substantial as it's being made out to be.

The thing to understand is that a lot of things revolve around this arc of TWGOK. It's an extremely large portion of the story and it's where questions posed in the first two seasons are answered. It's also the season where the primary characters experience the most substantial growth. Up until now it really has mostly been "business as usual" arcs. This is a good studio and they've done a more than decent job adapting the series up until now. They wouldn't have been able to skip those arcs in the first place if they weren't capable of doing so, and they wouldn't have attempted it in the first place if they couldn't do it without affecting the perception of the anime-only viewers. Yui's character shines more in this arc than in her own, and Tsukiyo (as much as it pains me to say this, because I really do like her character a lot) plays a very minor role. Honestly, I think the most confusing aspect of Yui and Tsukiyo will be that they're characters that people are only just being introduced to but everyone else is sufficiently aware of.

Edit: Watching the opening again, is it just me or is Yui slightly more boyish in this than in the manga? I'm not sure if I look forward to all of the trouble she causes. The teasing and the harassment that she provides is frightening!

[jvcscasio]

I believe they will make a flashback in the characters when Keima starts searching for them, like "The next candidate is X, I captured her XXXX"

[moridin84]

The tragic thing about Tsukiyo arc being skipped is that she is the next girl to be captured after season 2 of the anime. If they didn't drag out the seasons as much then she would have gotten her arc animated.

[n120cky]

What disappointing is how they make OP full of spoiler if not trolling, I do enjoy how Keima deduct which of girl that he had been conquer is the goddess, yet they make it oblivious six+chihiro as main girl . . .

[jvcscasio]

Originally Posted by n120cky

What disappointing is how they make OP full of spoiler if not trolling, I do enjoy how Keima deduct which of girl that he had been conquer is the goddess, yet they make it oblivious six+chihiro as main girl . . .

In the manga was the same and no one noticed. There was a gigantic page with Chihiro as a bride written "support the goddesses and Chihiro!", and yet no one noticed that until Ayumi was revealed as the host.

[Rungelunge]

Exactly. If people want mystery they already have Meitantei Conan in the same magazine.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by n120cky

What disappointing is how they make OP full of spoiler if not trolling, I do enjoy how Keima deduct which of girl that he had been conquer is the goddess, yet they make it oblivious six+chihiro as main girl . . .

Are you saying the OP made it obvious that Chihiro isn't one of the goddesses? Cause I never noticed that.

In the manga was the same and no one noticed. There was a gigantic page with Chihiro as a bride written "support the goddesses and Chihiro!", and yet no one noticed that until Ayumi was revealed as the host.

What chapter was that?

[jvcscasio]

Originally Posted by moridin84

Are you saying the OP made it obvious that Chihiro isn't one of the goddesses? Cause I never noticed that.


What chapter was that?

Here: http://www.mangadata.com/manga/The-W...Knows/116.005/
scroll down, there will be the image. It was released before the great reveal...

[Traece]

Originally Posted by jvcscasio

Here: http://www.mangadata.com/manga/The-W...Knows/116.005/
scroll down, there will be the image. It was released before the great reveal...

Wow.

That was the most subtle thing ever that I had to give it a few passes.

Although I suspect most of us thought Ayumi would be the goddess simply because she's Ayumi and she's obligated to be one. Plus Ayumi is trouble, just like the goddesses, so it's perfect for her.

The OP of the series does give away who the girls are, technically. But there was never any mystery about that even in the manga. Pretty much the first thing Keima does is figure out that the goddesses reside in girls who attend his school and are closer to him by location. The list of girls who both attend his school and in closer proximity to him within it is extremely small and already leaves only Kanon, Ayumi, Chihiro, Tsukiyo, Shion, and Yui. Even the ojou-sama was dismissed very quickly as being a non-goddesses.

Honestly, I'm just glad that they were smart enough to include Chihiro so that there was no spoilers about her. Whether her or Ayumi end up being the real goddess was the mystery. I'm really looking forward to a couple months from now when all the anime viewers are trying to figure out who it is.

[n120cky]

Originally Posted by moridin84

Are you saying the OP made it obvious that Chihiro isn't one of the goddesses? Cause I never noticed that.

No what I'm saying is they narrow down the six goddess with only shown 7 girls in OP, you know the tension of finding who the goddess is prety much entertaining, Keima is a deductive person by nature instead of his gal game fan trait, I found it pretty rare and what most likely unique about Keima on how he deal with detective job.