Fate/Zero - Episode 25 Discussion [END] / Poll

[klare]

Kariya died with happy thoughts, but it was just illusions... so sad on what happened to Sakura and Rin too

could it be they show Saber crying for the first time? that light at the end looks like hope for her

glad to have such a good series like this, which is so rare nowadays, i like the FSN anime too but it could not be compared to Zero

[DragoZERO]

I figured out why this episode feels so strange! It's because it doesn't feel like an ending since it continues in Fate/stay night.

Definitely going to re-play F/SN soon.

[Ragna92]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I figured out why this episode feels so strange! It's because it doesn't feel like an ending since it continues in Fate/stay night.

Definitely going to re-play F/SN soon.

This. In fact I already started replaying HF.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

I know he already aspired to it before the suffering, but the suffering is essentially what made him so desperate for it and how he went to such lengths to seek everlasting peace. It's an aspiration that is common, but the extent to which he follows it are brought about because of his sufferings, which was my point. It's the desperation of it that I highlighted in my post that was important, otherwise, can you really say he would go so far without those catalysts?

I agree with all that, but the other aspect to those catalysts is that without them Kiritsugu might have gone about the ideal in a less unhealthy manner and thus wouldn't have ended up broken the way he did. That happened because those catalysts twisted his initially pure dream of becoming a hero into a corrupted version of it, and thus, instead of becoming an actual hero who focuses on saving others, he became an anti-hero who specializes in killing others. The latter is what made him become the broken shell of a man we saw in this episode, whereas the former is what he actually wanted to become (but wasn't able to because of his circumstances), as well as the path that Shirou will pursue.

And he actually goes on to reiterate that same dream in the very last moments of his life, so I really don't see it as something that was merely forced upon him by his bad experiences. He would've pursued it either way, just not in the way he ended up doing. Whether he would've eventually outgrown it or not, who can say. But that's what Shirou's story is for.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Ragna92

This. In fact I already started replaying HF.

Heaven's Feel is where it continues, after all. Maybe I'll just play that one. Aw, who am I kidding? I'm gonna play all three.

[Xagzan]

Wow, that was simply a great ending overall. Rarely has such a tragic ending been so wonderful for me to watch. Thoughts:

- Ok, they did retroactively explain Berserker's story a bit, and the scene in which they did made it even more heartwrenching on top of Saber's complete break down (which, I'm still startled to maintain, is strangely beautiful like Gilgamesh says). On that note,

- Poor Saber She is just shattered, isn't she? Although oddly enough,

Spoiler for FSN ending:

while I found the ending of FSN quite tragic back when I originally saw it, seeing Saber's eternal misery in the end of FZ now makes me see it in a different light, since it seemed the poor girl finally found peace at last, and didn't have to suffer anymore...though what exactly it was that changed her views I'm struggling to remember.

- Kirei's scene was a pure delight to watch. Seeing him revel in his newfound acceptance of his sociopathic nature was just glorious, especially the way his uncontrollable laughter was intertwined with his ironically self-condemnatory remarks (lines like "Could my father have sired a dog?" or "Is it possible that this was created from Kotomine Risei's seed?" I took to be as such, though I forget the exact wording). Despite the fact that this was essentially a scene of a man celebrating evil, I couldn't help but grin myself. And then, handing Rin that dagger and seeing the poor girl just start crying...Kirei, go fuck yourself, man. You're an asshole

- Oh, Aoi's alive, weird. Still with what Rin's now been through, it's a bit of a miracle she ended up being a relatively well-adjusted teen, huh?

- For Kiritsugu, I have no words. Seeing him finally find just a tiny bit of salvation in our young original protagonist, after his last hope for it had just slaughtered everyone he was ironically trying to save, was beautiful, especially with Shiro's narration. I guess now we know why he never returned to Ilya though, how sad. I'm curious, did Kiritsugu ever talk with Shiro about his past? They lived together at least 5 years, after all, I wonder if it came up.

Now, Ufotable needs to get to animating this Heaven's Feel everyone's talking about as soon as possible. Seriously, I need more, and I sincerely hope they're the studio to do it.

- Oh and last thought: Gilgamesh rescuing Kirei from the rubble, naked. The fujoshi must have had a heart attack. Which is more than we can say for Kirei now.

[Ragna92]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Heaven's Feel is where it continues, after all. Maybe I'll just play that one. Aw, who am I kidding? I'm gonna play all three.

Well to be honest I already finished replaying Fate and UBW while Fate/Zero was airing xD.

[Kirarakim]

I liked this ending a lot more than I thought I would.

I was glad they included the Lancelot moment in this episode after all but I did find it a bit underwhelming for me. I did feel for Saber though, great job by Ayako Kawasumi.


Disliked most of Kariya's storyline but Sakura's line at the end was chilling. Besides Lancer, Kariya's ending might be the worst. I don't really have much sympathy for him after what he did to Sakura & Rin's mom but I do feel for Sakura.

Loved seeing Waver again..I teared up a little at the empty room with no Rider but his presence still being there. Still my favorite team.

But my favorite thing about the episode was Kiritsugu's ending. Maybe I am just a sap but I love endings like that. Kiritsugu was very misguided in his attempts to do good but he actually does one simple act of goodness and in that way his wish will come true, not through him, but through his son. I never experienced FSN but this did resonate with me. And after all that bitterness I am glad the series ended on a hopeful note for the future.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But my favorite thing about the episode was Kiritsugu's ending. Maybe I am just a sap but I love endings like that. Kiritsugu was very misguided in his attempts to do good but he actually does one simple act of goodness and in that way his wish will come true, not through him, but through his son. I never experienced FSN but this did resonate with me. And after all that bitterness I am glad the series ended on a hopeful note for the future.

For the love that is Type-Moon, play F/SN.

Ufotable really needs to do Heaven's Feel. Perfect follow up for Zero.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

For the love that is Type-Moon, play F/SN.

Ufotable really needs to do Heaven's Feel. Perfect follow up for Zero.

Hmm. Seeing the reactions for the Kariya scene (tbh I don't think they can fix that even with blue ray they totally changed the message) I'm now ambivalent on whether they should do HF, which is heavily, heavily plot based drama. Since it's most definitely longer in story length than Zero, even an anime might be hard to work around. Plus there are way too many necessary elements that'd make the story fall flat in several places if not done right.

[dark998]

Nice closure episode despite being slightly anti-climatic as a whole. All in all it was an enjoyable series.

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Hmm. Seeing the reactions for the Kariya scene (tbh I don't think they can fix that even with blue ray they totally changed the message) I'm now ambivalent on whether they should do HF, which is heavily, heavily plot based drama. Since it's most definitely longer in story length than Zero, even an anime might be hard to work around. Plus there are way too many necessary elements that'd make the story fall flat in several places if not done right.

Indeed. Kariya has been poorly treated by the anime to the point where it's as if he deserved all the crap he got and all the things he tried his best at were either marginalized or subtle tweaked in a way that could be interpreted as more selfish than it is.

And since he's not a cute girl, he won't even get the "Isn't it sad, Sacchin?" treament.

[imbehindyou]

A bit less thrilling than my expectations, leaving some questions.

Spoiler for Some questions I had:

I kinda know the answers to these questions, but I feel that many viewers probably had similar things going through their mind while watching the final episode.

1. How does Saber die/disappear?
2. What happened in Fuyuki city with the mud and all even when Saber destroyed the Grail? How does the Holy Grail actually work - the vessel and the Great Grail?
3. How does Gilgamesh survive (and continue to stay until F/SN)?
4. How does Kirei survive?
5. Kariya didn't die last episode?
6. How did Aoi survive?
7. What was going through Kirei's mind and how did he feel while watching Rin at Tokiomi's funeral? (I guess the answer to this is predictable but they could've brought it out more.)

It's unfortunate, but had the pacing been better during the first half of the series, the final episode might have been more clear. I did like how they used flashback of Berserker's final moment to describe Saber's feelings, but nevertheless I still wish they had included some of this in episode 24 to have a more satisfactory end to Berserker. On the other hand, I did not understand the point of including Waver's story while they decided to leave out many things that would have answered questions tying into the main part of the story.

eh, leaving serious discussion behind... I kinda couldn't take the episode seriously anymore after NAKED GIL. LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD!

[Flawfinder]

Originally Posted by imbehindyou

On the other hand, I did not understand the point of including Waver's story while they decided to leave out many things that would have answered questions tying into the main part of the story.

If Waver was not in this series, I would have ranked this series as a bad one.

[Scrya]

Someone brought a question to me, and I realized I didn't know the answer to it, so I'll ask you guys.

Spoiler for Fate/Stay Night anime spoilers?:

When Saber destroys the Grail in Fate/Zero, it leaks out corruption and burns and kills stuff. But in Fate/Stay Night, Saber destroys the Grail, but it doesn't explode or destroy anything. Why's that?

[imbehindyou]

Originally Posted by Flawnalyst

If Waver was not in this series, I would have ranked this series as a bad one.

Waver was one of my favorites from the series but I personally would have liked to see some of the stuff that was cut out rather than Waver scene. But personal preferences, personal preferences.

[mAc Chaos]

Originally Posted by Scrya

Someone brought a question to me, and I realized I didn't know the answer to it, so I'll ask you guys.

Spoiler for Fate/Stay Night anime spoilers?:

When Saber destroys the Grail in Fate/Zero, it leaks out corruption and burns and kills stuff. But in Fate/Stay Night, Saber destroys the Grail, but it doesn't explode or destroy anything. Why's that?

I'll answer this in the Fate Q&A thread. Go there. We don't want any Fate spoilers in this thread.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by imbehindyou

A bit less thrilling than my expectations, leaving some questions.

Spoiler for Some questions I had:

I kinda know the answers to these questions, but I feel that many viewers probably had similar things going through their mind while watching the final episode.

1. How does Saber die/disappear?
2. What happened in Fuyuki city with the mud and all even when Saber destroyed the Grail? How does the Holy Grail actually work - the vessel and the Great Grail?
3. How does Gilgamesh survive (and continue to stay until F/SN)?
4. How does Kirei survive?
5. Kariya didn't die last episode?
6. How did Aoi survive?
7. What was going through Kirei's mind and how did he feel while watching Rin at Tokiomi's funeral? (I guess the answer to this is predictable but they could've brought it out more.)

Spoiler:

1. is more of putting the fact together. Saber was summoned by the holy grail (explained in ep1), so once that vessel is destroyed she can't last long.
2. er..watch 1:21 again. As to how the actual system works don't think there's a definitive timestamp for it...
3. 5:25, and the fact that he was born anew and with a real body (a wish that Rider wanted, ironically)
4. 6:10. He did say that he has no "heartbeat" left. In other words, It's magic
5. Guess not. Not everyone who fainted/collapsed dies. You can still be alive without your mana source, see Kayneth.
6. Guess she wasn't dead back then. Not everyone who fainted/collapsed dies. No to mention Kotomine the master healer is right there.
7. That smirk at 16:31, simply fabulous.

I find it interesting that some people still see it as a "tournament" story instead of individual downfall and self discovery.

Uryuu discovered his most prized possession
Kayneth lost his pride
Tohsaka lost his opportunity
Waver discovered his goal in life
Kariya lost his fight against fate
Kotomine discovered his true self
Kiritsugu lost his hope, yet discovered them again.

[mAc Chaos]

Tohsaka lost more than an opportunity, lool.

[Leon_Lelouch]

nice ending, seeing Kiritsugu looked in despair because even after he chose to abandon his family in order to save many more people, it reverse back and the grail that he tried to destroy then destroying people he wanted to save... seeing he became desperate in searching for people who may still be alive in that pile of rubbish and find his salvation after finding Shirou...

Another tragic end for a master which is Kariya who tried to get the happiness of the person he loved, he was deceived by Kirei and be thought as killer by Aoi and laslty just got the illusion that he had already saved Sakura and brought her back to Aoi and Rin....

I felt that Waver get the most development.... as before he was just a kid who act selfishly and now become mature because of Rider....
it's good too that berseker did some conversation with Saber and told his feelings to saber...

and woot... Taiga in her young age with her uniform in 19:15.... it is Taiga right?

2 more project maybe for the animation? Heaven's feel and then Fate Hollow Atraxia....