(L) UQ Holder (Ken Akamatsu's new series)

[Requiem-x]

Originally Posted by novalysis

But the whole story is revolving around the outcome of events put into motion at the end of Negima. Starting from the Space Elevator which is Touta's obsession.

I agree that the early chapters of Negima had a truckload of Harem Cliches. But having time to reconsider it, I think there's some reasons to be optimistic here. For one, consider how fast Akamatsu blew through the Training Arc, or the initial Journey for that matter for UQ Holders - those two are staple Shounen progressions, which sometimes could consume entire volumes. I wouldn't be surprised if a tournament arc is coming up soon, and once all those Shounen Cliches are consumed, that's where the meat of UQ Holder would emerge.

Because right now, those signposts are being consumed at a rapid rate. It's almost as if Akamatsu is rushing - this arc would either take a huge twist, or would be over in two more chapters by the looks of it.

True, but you'd think the series would have something on its own to catch attention. Obviously, the whole immortal deal is supposed to do that, but so far it has been sort of unimpressive. Also, there are the blatant problems it brings to the table, like the tension draining and the obvious excuae for timeskips with no real changes.

Yeah, I noticed the rushing with the teaining arc as well, and yeah, it could be a sign Akamatsu wants to be done with those cliches as long as possible, which would definetly be a good thing. I just hope that what follows is good.

[sakai-san]

Wait on chapter 353 of Negima, whose graves were those behind Negi's because they start from what I can see 2055 to somewhere in 2100. I swore the ones in UQ holder goes to 2074 or something.

[AstroNerdBoy]

Originally Posted by OverMaster

Yeah, it does feel like Akamatsu is spitting on the face of what Ala Alba struggled to do, which irks me a lot.

Ah, but Fate did warn Negi that the course Negi was on could lead to all kinds of negative consequences.

Originally Posted by whitecloud

Well....kuroumaru most likely a half tengu? Since karasu tengu is all male, but it doesnt include half tengu...

Kuroumaru might be full Tengu, only cursed because she was "born" female, doubly so if her tribe attempted body modification and it failed, leading to her immortality.

As to the new chapter, all I have to say is, "You go, Karin!" ^_^

[OverMaster]

Originally Posted by AstroNerdBoy

Ah, but Fate did warn Negi that the course Negi was on could lead to all kinds of negative consequences.

But that only makes it worse! The implications are both worlds now would be better off if Ala Alba hadn't done anything, and that's horrible payoff for nine years of serialization and emotional involvement. The least you can ask for then is for the heroes to be in the right and the antagonists to be (mostly) in the wrong. For all Ala Rubra failed to ultimately achieve (they never took the evil Senate down or fully rubbed Kosmo Entelekheia off), they at least delivered a mostly safe world to the next generation. Ala Alba's actions, instead, resulted in chaos.

Why did we read Negima, then? Not only it never paid off in any of its major questions (like who ended up with Negi and how Nagi was freed), but now we're even being led to believe all the protagonists did was paving the way for a worse world? Why should we believe UQ Holder, after being handed a world in worse shape than the one Negi got, and with an idiot as the lead character instead of a genius, will do any better, then?

[Requiem-x]

Originally Posted by OverMaster

But that only makes it worse! The implications are both worlds now would be better off if Ala Alba hadn't done anything, and that's horrible payoff for nine years of serialization and emotional involvement.

Well, we still don't know how the magic world is, maybe it was Earth that got all the bad stuff. Still sucks, though, and in fact, if the magic side got the better end of the deal, it only deepens the segregation part.

Oh wait, of course! The magic world would've been doomed if Negi and crew had done nothing! That's a good thing! An entire world and its inhabitants were saved! Now it's a matter of seeing if they were saved only to become elitist douchebags. I hope they at least stopped treating dryads like garbage.

Originally Posted by OverMaster

Why did we read Negima, then? Not only it never paid off in any of its major questions (like who ended up with Negi and how Nagi was freed), but now we're even being led to believe all the protagonists did was paving the way for a worse world?

Normally, I would say to look at the smaller picture, like the individual characters, but... yeah, we got kinda screwed in that one too. No, a summary isn't enough, especially after the (human) world seemingly went to crap, which I'm pretty sure would affect our cast, and especially their descendants.

Originally Posted by OverMaster

Why should we believe UQ Holder, after being handed a world in worse shape than the one Negi got, and with an idiot as the lead character instead of a genius, will do any better, then?

Actually, since they're immortals, the current state of either world probably matters nothing to them. Like, they're stuck in frozen time while everything else goes its merry way.

[OverMaster]

Originally Posted by Requiem-x

Oh wait, of course! The magic world would've been doomed if Negi and crew had done nothing! That's a good thing! An entire world and its inhabitants were saved! Now it's a matter of seeing if they were saved only to become elitist douchebags. I hope they at least stopped treating dryads like garbage.

Well, it's mostly like everyone in Mundus Magicus would be stuck in an eternal joyous dream if Ala Alba had done nothing and allowed Kosmo Entelekheia to have it their way. Don't get me wrong, I consider that solution to be morally repugnant on the grounds it's forcing millions to live a lie in unescapable golden cages, but now, looking at the way Mundus Magicus, at the very least, seems headed for a bloody war with Earth that will no doubt claim countless deaths from BOTH sides... I don't know, but ultimately they have it quite crappy too.

Actually, since they're immortals, the current state of either world probably matters nothing to them. Like, they're stuck in frozen time while everything else goes its merry way.

... that wouldn't make them relatable leads at all, would it? I think they are supposed to care, since the stated purpose of the team is to help people. Otherwise, they'd just be a horrible club of Immortal Elite who sit aside enjoying eternal life together while the world goes down the pipes.

[Requiem-x]

Originally Posted by OverMaster

Well, it's mostly like everyone in Mundus Magicus would be stuck in an eternal joyous dream if Ala Alba had done nothing and allowed Kosmo Entelekheia to have it their way. Don't get me wrong, I consider that solution to be morally repugnant on the grounds it's forcing millions to live a lie in unescapable golden cages, but now, looking at the way Mundus Magicus, at the very least, seems headed for a bloody war with Earth that will no doubt claim countless deaths from BOTH sides... I don't know, but ultimately they have it quite crappy too.

Let's cross the war bridge when we get to it. But things still look crappy, yes.

Originally Posted by OverMaster

... that wouldn't make them relatable leads at all, would it?

No, it wouldn't. One of the risks of having a cast of immortals.

Originally Posted by OverMaster

I think they are supposed to care, since the stated purpose of the team is to help people.

Well, they are helping in the short term, that much is obvious from the latest chapter, but in the big scheme of things? Who knows.

Originally Posted by OverMaster

Otherwise, they'd just be a horrible club of Immortal Elite who sit aside enjoying eternal life together while the world goes down the pipes.

I'd bet anything there's at least one person in UQ Holder who's exactly like that. It's too obvious to not do it.

[OverMaster]

I wonder if Akamatsu is trying to send some sort of message with Ala Alba's actions and their outcome, or it's just him tripping on his own plotting without wanting or realizing it so. What is the moral here exactly? You can't fight fate (pun!)? Sometimes awful things will still happen even when you try your best and devote your whole life to a goal? The road to hell is paved with good intentions? Is he actually mocking the moral conventions of the genre stealthily? Is he just taking advantage of how most teenagers in the target audience won't mind about the social and ethical implications as long as they're given cool fights and the occasional naked girl? Is there no actual moral? Where did I leave my sandwich? Does he actually believe in the optimistic message of the Negima finale and just happened to screw it up without wanting to due to the need for conflict, or is this his way of giving the middle finger to a series he might have gotten sick of, and he ended up without putting his heart into it? Are you guys still reading this? How much, in his heart, of the genre, does he really feel that should be played straight and how much does he really want to subvert? Are the subverted parts just missteps while trying to play them straight? Are the played straight parts just missteps when he wants to subvert them?

Would a perfectionist like Negi really have 'died satisfied' as Eva said in Negima 353, in a future like this? Because things didn't go to pot in the mere two years after Negi's death, obviously. Does this mean this isn't the Asuna Bad Future? Or did Eva lie then?

Regarding people expecting for a redeeming genre shift, remember: The sole reason why Negima got an abrupt shift is he started it in a genre he didn't want to do anymore. UQ Holder is supposed to be the action story he always wanted to tell (which makes it even more puzzling why it's so bland so far, especially since it's his last project- if I wanted to close my career with my dream project, I'd try to make it amazing in every chapter), so a major shift is less likely here. And remember, Love Hina and AI Love You remained true to their respective genres to the end, and they didn't become particularly 'smarter' along the way either.

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by Requiem-x

Oh wait, of course! The magic world would've been doomed if Negi and crew had done nothing! That's a good thing! An entire world and its inhabitants were saved! Now it's a matter of seeing if they were saved only to become elitist douchebags. I hope they at least stopped treating dryads like garbage.

This just gave me way too much of a Tales of Symphonia vibe.
Ditto about the dryads, though. Of course, their horns still are ingredients for a kickass medicine.

Originally Posted by OverMaster

Would a perfectionist like Negi really have 'died satisfied' as Eva said in Negima 353, in a future like this? Because things didn't go to pot in the mere two years after Negi's death, obviously. Does this mean this isn't the Asuna Bad Future? Or did Eva lie then?

At this point, we don't know which future this is. Akamatsu did mention the possibility of looking into other possible timelines barring the ones shown in Negima. Most likely, this is not the same timeline where he 'died satisfied'.

Plus, with the summary of the series saying:

In the decade since the world became aware of the existence of magic, the world has undergone massive upheaval.

I don't really get why people are acting all surprised. We have been seeing the upheaval the world has undergone first hand since Eva and Touta left the countryside.

Originally Posted by OverMaster

Regarding people expecting for a redeeming genre shift, remember: The sole reason why Negima got an abrupt shift is he started it in a genre he didn't want to do anymore. UQ Holder is supposed to be the action story he always wanted to tell (which makes it even more puzzling why it's so bland so far, especially since it's his last project- if I wanted to close my career with my dream project, I'd try to make it amazing in every chapter), so a major shift is less likely here. And remember, Love Hina and AI Love You remained true to their respective genres to the end, and they didn't become particularly 'smarter' along the way either.

Remember that in the first 20+ chapters of Negima that Akamatsu spent time developing the framework for Negima's story. Even when it was still harem antics, there were hints of genre shifts in the works since the beginning.
He is doing the same thing here. The past chapters have been mainly spent developing the world that has resulted. As such, we're not awaiting any major shift. We're awaiting the point when the world building has been completed to a satisfactory enough level that the pace can pick up and so that we can get into the story.

[chaosprophet]

Don't blame all on Negi. As some mentioned before on earlier chapters, the whole idea of population decline is something to be expected regarding Japan's demography. And what Negi did is save the Magc World and all it's big population. He didn't, and wasn't really supposed to, create a super peaceful universe where no bad things happens afterwards.

The Magic World was something that had to be dealt with ASAP or would be too late. It's up to the people of each time to solve their problems, or as Rakan says, wipe their own ass. And in a way something that was likely left by Negi, the UQ Holder, is still helping people nowadays on what they can, even after 21 years since Negi's death (or disappearance if something happened).

I personally don't see this as in any way diminishing what the characters did in Negima. Althought it's true that if Negi hadn't died (or qhtever that apapearently took him out of the satge) we could have an even better future, but even then a future that should have it's own share of problems from time to time.

[kagato3]

It's also implied that Chao's time line was even worse that the massive amount of upheaval that would be caused by revealing magic would've been better. Negi seems to have done the same thing but at a slower pace as even decades later it is still not widely spread to rural areas. The the upheaval was going to be happen once magic was no longer secret.

[OverMaster]

Originally Posted by chaosprophet

He didn't, and wasn't really supposed to, create a super peaceful universe where no bad things happens afterwards.

Don't twist my words. I'm not asking for that, but for at least a somewhat better world than the one he was left with. That's the least you can expect from a hero's journey, otherwise it's either a dark deconstruction or a narrative failure.

I don't really get why people are acting all surprised. We have been seeing the upheaval the world has undergone first hand since Eva and Touta left the countryside.

I have made no secret of my issues with the series' premise since the start.

[Breimoon]

the only thing i hope is for mangaka-sama to not go on hiatus everytime . How many hiatus did he go with Negima?about one every 3-4 months?

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by OverMaster

Don't twist my words. I'm not asking for that, but for at least a somewhat better world than the one he was left with. That's the least you can expect from a hero's journey, otherwise it's either a dark deconstruction or a narrative failure.



I have made no secret of my issues with the series' premise since the start.

As pointed out Negi wasn't going out to fix the world. People leaving rural areas for cities has been an ongoing issue I most developed countries for decades and the trend has not been shown to be slowing down. Pretty much any technology will end up being abused by criminal elements. None of these issues are a direct result of what Negi was doing. It may have sped a few of them up but it is not like you can just wave a magic wand and make every thing better as these are underlying problems that have been with humanity for pretty much as long as civilization has existed.

[Fwarlord]

When you think about it, after the secret of magic being reveal, it's only a matter of time before people begin to abuse it to wage war against one another, right? Basically, Negi just gave humanity the most dangerous weapon to kill each other since the invention of atomic bomb, so he has to take responsibility for that. We still haven't know what he did after the end of Negima, but from what I saw, the world isn't in the state of perpetual warfare or fill with wasteland but it's not like people's lives become any better after a couple of century either. It's very weird considering the revelation of magic and how advanced technology should become. Seriously, if Negi was going to reveal the secret of magic to the world, he should at least do something to make sure it wouldn't be use for wrong purpose. Instead of create an organization to protect only a few people (the immortal), he should create an international force to keep all magic users at check and punish those who use it with evil intention.

[ChronoReverse]

Atomic bombs were considered to be stronger than any magic by Nagi back in Negima.

In the end what could Negi do beyond have regulations? Regulations that would obviously be circumvented by criminal elements that would use magic for nefarious purposes.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by OverMaster

Don't twist my words. I'm not asking for that, but for at least a somewhat better world than the one he was left with. That's the least you can expect from a hero's journey, otherwise it's either a dark deconstruction or a narrative failure.

Mundus Magicus still exists, as opposed to what would have happened, so he did leave the world better than it would have been.

[AstroNerdBoy]

Originally Posted by OverMaster

But that only makes it worse! The implications are both worlds now would be better off if Ala Alba hadn't done anything, and that's horrible payoff for nine years of serialization and emotional involvement.

Had Negima! continued, I had hoped that Negi's path would indeed lead to the disaster that Chao came back in time to prevent in order to close the loop. Akamatsu-sensei brought in the whole Back to the Future multiple timeline thing, so while Negi's choices may not lead to the exact disaster that Chao came back to prevent, the fact that there are consequences that weren't expected comes off as realistic.

The least you can ask for then is for the heroes to be in the right and the antagonists to be (mostly) in the wrong.

And I totally understand this. However, I admit that in this case, because we already knew that Negi had done something that caused a terrible world in the future, I was actually open to the idea that the hero does everything right but still fails. As put in Wrath of Khan, a no-win scenario.

For all Ala Rubra failed to ultimately achieve (they never took the evil Senate down or fully rubbed Kosmo Entelekheia off), they at least delivered a mostly safe world to the next generation. Ala Alba's actions, instead, resulted in chaos.

Well, let's look at this more closely.

Ala Rubra's actions during the conflict with KE had them branded as part of the problem for a long time. Eventually, they came out on top, but what did they do? They bought how many years of peace and safety on the Magic World? Just enough to pass the problems they couldn't solve onto the next generation, aka: Ala Alba. Had Ala Alba not come about, there would be NO Magic World as KE would have wiped it out.

So the peace that Ala Rubra achieved was merely a lull before the final solution kicked in.

In comes Ala Alba. They save the entire Magic World from the destruction of KE. They unite the factions on the Magic World. They have the Magic World (Mars) form times with the Old World (Earth). They establish a cooperation method between the two world to save the dying Magic World. And everyone rejoiced (as seen by the end of Negima!).

However, much as Ala Rubra failed to achieve a permanent peace or find a solution to the Magic World problem, Ala Alba also failed in this regard. Negi appears to have paid for this failure with his life.

Why did we read Negima, then? Not only it never paid off in any of its major questions (like who ended up with Negi and how Nagi was freed), but now we're even being led to believe all the protagonists did was paving the way for a worse world?

The issue of Akamatsu-sensei cutting off Negima! before it was finished is a topic I won't touch here because I agree that the immediate ending of the series without proper resolutions (rather than just slapped on resolutions) sucks.

As for Negi paving the way for what ends up being a worse world, this was foreshadowed as far as I am concerned because of Chao's trip back. The issue that what Negi was doing might still lead to that "bad end" was discussed in Negima!. In the end, Negi did what he thought was right despite knowing the risks of it leading to another disaster.

Why should we believe UQ Holder, after being handed a world in worse shape than the one Negi got, and with an idiot as the lead character instead of a genius, will do any better, then?

That's just it, we don't know that they'll succeed. The idiot aside, that's going to be part of the fun of the journey.

Originally Posted by OverMaster

I wonder if Akamatsu is trying to send some sort of message with Ala Alba's actions and their outcome, or it's just him tripping on his own plotting without wanting or realizing it so. What is the moral here exactly? You can't fight fate (pun!)? Sometimes awful things will still happen even when you try your best and devote your whole life to a goal? The road to hell is paved with good intentions?

In addition to the immortal aspects introduced in Negima!, I think that Akamatsu-sensei did indeed want to explore the concept of setting forth with a plan for salvation that in fact leads to more problems. Unfortunately, he chose to abandon Negima! and switch to UQ Holder to explore those themes.

Would a perfectionist like Negi really have 'died satisfied' as Eva said in Negima 353, in a future like this? Because things didn't go to pot in the mere two years after Negi's death, obviously. Does this mean this isn't the Asuna Bad Future? Or did Eva lie then?

Why couldn't things go to pot in two years? Negi may well have died thinking that everything was cool, but in fact, waiting in the shadows for the right time to strike was the darkness that is never defeated. The whole idea of "fairness" is at the heart of redistributing poverty, hoping that somehow, this would alleviate the problem, not exacerbate it, leading to equality of outcomes. Negi may have thought that the problem was solved, not believing that his actions could result in more problems. With Negi dead, then the darkness now feels it can strike without a "monster" to oppose them.

[Alf]

Just in case there are readers who haven't read Negima....

Spoiler for Negima reference:

If anyone remembers the Mahora Festival arc in Negima, recall the whole point of this arc: Insist on do the right thing will make you unable to advance at some point. Then you need to decide on a stance and hold on it. Perhap you can do some good things on one side, but probably in the price of doing something wrong on the other side. So that's why when Eva ask Negi what have he learnt at the end of the arc, the answer is: "I know where I stand."

This extends to what Negi have done to Mundus Magicus. What he did was actually: "I don't like the virtual utopia solution. So I'll provide a more realistic solution and deploy the plan myself." And he was forewarned about the result might be Chao's future.

So it was actually solving the problem of the time, while acknowledging possible negative outcome. One of the results is what we see in UQ Holder. It isn't necessarily that bad, but in UQ Holder we got to see the poverty side of the capital city before we're shown the bright side so this is where UQ Holder stands, but we've also been told of some good things like the solar system race. What we're shown here is simply a very possible result of what is done in Negima, rather than the author's personal distaste for previous path.

That's actually the same out of utopia thing hinted in later part of Negima. But Negima was, so to speak, a utopia type of work grown from Love Hina, with a twist of showing risks. It won't be able to describe the negative outcomes without breaking the tone of the work. So Negima can only go on a trip outside of the utopia, do something to protect it, and end up being in utopia again. But the setting and tone is different in UQ Holder, and all those results, negative or not, are to be faced by Touta and others here. So IMHO this is what can be expected from UQ Holder.

That said, the tension so far is quite low, and Akamatsu don't seem to have the knack for hot headed battles. I hope he's able to setup the stage properly before being cut down.

[Eisdrache]

Is this a topic about Negima or UQ Holder? I can't really tell anymore.