(L) UQ Holder (Ken Akamatsu's new series)

[Proto]

Because no one wants to see a story they're invested in (Assuming it wasn't its intial angle from the start, of course) watch their world go to shit, result of their actions or not. Reading UQ Holder is just draining at this point.

Speak for yourself. I like UQ holder, and I don't mind reading Negima. I don't understand everyone's peeve with making ppl suffer or having their goals or life be in vain. It's just literature. As long as the storytelling is compelling who cares (i don't).

[OverMaster]

The only way I can see Negima being retroactively saved from this thing is if, after showing us what went wrong in this timeline, Akamatsu goes back to Negima from where he left, and his next work is about Ala Alba precisely preventing the events that screwed their world (either because in that timeline they have Asuna, assuming this one doesn't, or because some UQ Holder character makes the jump to make a difference. It sure doesn't look like Chao or future Eva warned anyone about anything worth a crap).

But let's be honest, that will never happen.

Originally Posted by Proto

I don't understand everyone's peeve with making ppl suffer or having their goals or life be in vain.

It shows people actually cared at all about the thing.

Let's see if you're still singing the same song when he does the same thing to UQ Holder and its cast.

It's just literature.

No, don't tell me! Seriously? Why thanks, I'd never have guessed otherwise.

Now seriously, under that reasoning, anything bad in any literary medium can be excused because, hey, it's only fiction after all. Let's close all the review sites and critiques, people. And then let's watch some Twilight.

As long as the storytelling is compelling who cares (i don't).

Well, there's the fact some of us don't consider UQ's storytelling (mainly composed of shilling Touta while randomly hopping from one point to another) compelling.

When someone's argument for defending something is 'who cares?', well, not to offend or anything, but that's not exactly well thought and deeply reasoned arguing.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by OverMaster

The only way I can see Negima being retroactively saved from this thing is if, after showing us what went wrong in this timeline, Akamatsu goes back to Negima from where he left, and his next work is about Ala Alba precisely preventing the events that screwed their world (either because in that timeline they have Asuna, assuming this one doesn't, or because some UQ Holder character makes the jump to make a difference. It sure doesn't look like Chao or future Eva warned anyone about anything worth a crap).

But let's be honest, that will never happen.

One of the themes of Negima was that you can't save the world without paying some kind of cost somewhere. Arika saved the world, but at the cost of the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, not to mention her own reputation.

In the event that anything Negi did is to blame for what happened now, it's the same thing. Mundus Magicus was saved, but something bad happened in return. Is it fair or good? No it isn't. But no one ever said the world would become a utopia after Negima ended. Negi did what he intended to do, no matter what happened later, the fact that he saved the lives of millions won't change.

Sometimes bad stuff happens, even as a result of good stuff. That doesn't mean that the good stuff was meaningless. The worlds spins on, that's all.

[SoloPanda]

Originally Posted by Endscape

One of the themes of Negima was that you can't save the world without paying some kind of cost somewhere. Arika saved the world, but at the cost of the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, not to mention her own reputation.

In the event that anything Negi did is to blame for what happened now, it's the same thing. Mundus Magicus was saved, but something bad happened in return. Is it fair or good? No it isn't. But no one ever said the world would become a utopia after Negima ended. Negi did what he intended to do, no matter what happened later, the fact that he saved the lives of millions won't change.

Sometimes bad stuff happens, even as a result of good stuff. That doesn't mean that the good stuff was meaningless. The worlds spins on, that's all.

This right here was pretty much the entire point of Negima. Negi knew as far back as the Chao arc that he would be considered a villain in the eyes of many, no matter what choices he makes in life. That's probably the point of him being called evil so often here. In Negima there was no good or evil, just different points of view and most of them being right. The only ones who didn't justify their evil was the Senate.
Kurt, was a bastard but wanted to save the world. Fate, wanted to save as many as he could. I'm kind of thinking this will all follow the same pattern.

[Hollownerox]

Okay I've been just browsing this forum a bit, and while I was expecting a bit of it, I am still confused by all the judgmental comments about this series. Seriously guys, if you want to drop it, just drop it, nobody is forcing you to read the series so there is no need to be negative nancies about it (Though you have the right to be, opinions are opinions after all, but constantly posting negative comments just makes you seem like a toxic person which I'm sure you're not).

Yes Touta is a one dimensional character, but that is the point of character development, the person changes later down the road, don't expect a fully dynamic round character 32 chapters in. And don't even try to say Negi was a completely likable and three dimensional character in his series at the start. I'm pretty sure I recall quite a bit of Negi hate much akin to the Touta hate here during Negima's run.

I'm not saying to suck it up and let this series be force fed to you, what I'm saying is that it is pretty illogical to judge something that is only 32 chapters in. Negima was still the typical Harem romantic comedy at this point, barely getting into the Kyoto arc and there wasn't a clear plot being present as of yet. Don't count your chickens before they hatch and all that.

Besides this is Ken Akamatsu we're talking about, I am pretty damn sure that he has something more interesting down the line, the man tends to make things that seem uninteresting be major points of foreshadowing for stuff he planned for much further down the line.

Also Touta might have more to him than meets the eye, this is pure speculation from my part but his blatant stupidity that is getting on quite a few of your nerves seem less like a natural personality and more like a coping mechanism in my eyes. I've studied quite a bit of psychology (I was initially planning on being a Psych major but decided to switch) and his behavior does check off a few boxes in my head. Though to be fair, psychology is everything and I could just be seeing some signs that are not purposefully there (Hence why having Psych knowledge can be a bit of a pain when trying to enjoy a series).

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Endscape

One of the themes of Negima was that you can't save the world without paying some kind of cost somewhere. Arika saved the world, but at the cost of the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, not to mention her own reputation.

In the event that anything Negi did is to blame for what happened now, it's the same thing. Mundus Magicus was saved, but something bad happened in return. Is it fair or good? No it isn't. But no one ever said the world would become a utopia after Negima ended. Negi did what he intended to do, no matter what happened later, the fact that he saved the lives of millions won't change.

Sometimes bad stuff happens, even as a result of good stuff. That doesn't mean that the good stuff was meaningless. The worlds spins on, that's all.

Also it looks like this is the timeline that Asuna woke up on.

A world without her presence. Remember in the epilogue timeline her very presence led to the disclosure of magic earlier. As oppose here where it took decades to disclose and the Magic World is still secret.

If we go by Eva's comment on the PMC and Nagumo's attitude the Confederation is as corrupt as ever. Worse they are planning to extend their destructive influence on Earth.

Earth colonizing Mars and the Confederation wanting to extend its reach to Earth is a recipe for the Mars Independence War mentioned on Mana's epilogue.

[OverMaster]

Originally Posted by Hollownerox

Besides this is Ken Akamatsu we're talking about, I am pretty damn sure that he has something more interesting down the line, the man tends to make things that seem uninteresting be major points of foreshadowing for stuff he planned for much further down the line.

(Looks back at how many highly important things Negima left hanging, how much of all of the foreshadowing was lost, how many plot points ended up pointless, how much character development was truncated or even reversed, at most explained in single panel epilogues, how much the end seemed rushed atthe last minute without planning, the lack of payoff even for things teased since Chapter 1).

Really?

Seriously guys, if you want to drop it, just drop it, nobody is forcing you to read the series so there is no need to be negative nancies about it

"Don't like, Don't read" isn not a valid defense. It doesn't counter any allegations. It doesn't address any of the flaws of any work of fiction. It's nothing but "I don't want to read/hear your instances and observations, just go away and don't talk about this." The reasons why any of us keep reading this or not are meaningless in regard to the flaws of the work itself. If I chose to eat nails, it wouldn't mean the nails are any more nutritive or healthy or less dangerous, and if I choose to follow UQ (mainly because of the still gorgeous artwork and Karin) or not, it doesn't mean the other overwhelming flaws of the series are going to disappear. I mean, come on.

Earth colonizing Mars and the Confederation wanting to extend its reach to Earth is a recipe for the Mars Independence War mentioned on Mana's epilogue.

But Mana's epilogue takes place in the timeline with Asuna. Meaning the War happens anyway no matter what, despite the actions of Ala Alba or even UQ Holder. That's irking, because ultimately it means the protagonists of either series make no difference and their struggles make no difference in the big ultimate picture. Sure, they can change some things here and there, but so what? Some of these guys have been around for hundreds of years and yet the world seems to get, if anything, worse as time goes on. Even 352's future seems to be just a breather before things go awry for both worlds, and worse than ever, again. The fact that's placed at the tail end of a series that used to be light hearted comedy adventure romance is very jarring, because it's like stapling Berserk at the tail end of Ah My Goddess or Ranma. It's okay to toy with genres, but ultimately, genres are what they are for a reason. There's always a border somewhere you shouldn't go through. Something like this would have been better set in its own universe with its own overall mood rather than being sewn to Negima and Love Hina.

Sometimes bad stuff happens, even as a result of good stuff. That doesn't mean that the good stuff was meaningless. The worlds spins on, that's all.

Part of the problem with this message is Akamatsu can't seem to convey it properly. He wants to have his cake and eat it. He keeps making the real bad stuff happen 'off panel', in Time Skips and such, and then we have things like

Spoiler for Chapter 32?:

Touta seemingly having Tsundere fights with Kirie while traveling over the undersea graves of the Tokyo denizens. Sure, they COULD have been evacuated, but again, it would hark to Akamatsu being unwilling to portray the bad even when saying bad things are/have been happening.

He's a light hearted kind of author, but he wants desperately to be taken seriously as a drama author, with the big earth wrecking stakes. He makes a darker turn for Negima, but then that turn ends up with demons that attack a school... stripping people. And then he does a bloodier and gorier series where the old cast is dead... but surprise, the new cast can't be killed off.

All of that undermines the supposed message you're arguing for. He goes for it, but doesn't go for it without seeming to get cold feet about it. He knows he can't kill the Negima characters over the course of Negima itself without alienating the readership Negima originally gained, and probably his editors as well, so he instead resorts to a half hearted compromise of having his long teased 'Ideon ending' but without the emotional punch. He wants to play it safely, but if you're going that route, you should either take it with all the risks it implies or not going there at all. That makes the message feel false, because instead of the characters learning about the harsh realities themselves, things magically skip over to a point with a new character who is careless and happy anyway. And we start all over again, without having really ended it up the first time around.

This kind of story really would need a Seinen format and its own universe.

[Proto]

Now seriously, under that reasoning, anything bad in any literary medium can be excused because, hey, it's only fiction after all. Let's close all the review sites and critiques, people. And then let's watch some Twilight.

Strawman fallacy. I did state that the storyteliing has to be compelling in some shape of form. My argument has to do with excessive empathy towards fictional characters. My point being that tragedy and futility are valid literally themes. Saying that UQ Holder is bad because it illustrates the futility of the efforts of the characters in Negima is not a valid argument in and of iself. Liking it is an entirely diffent (and valid) discussion though. (I'm not saying I agree, I'm just saying that the discussion has merit, albeit for the most part it falls under personal taste).

Well, there's the fact some of us don't consider UQ's storytelling (mainly composed of shilling Touta while randomly hopping from one point to another) compelling.

That's an entirely different point, however you are entitled to your opinion.

Let's see if you're still singing the same song when he does the same thing to UQ Holder and its cast.

Bring it.

[felix]

@Hollownerox

I like UQ holder so far. Not sure what negativity you're referring to... guess I must of missed a long hate train or something since I joined late.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by felix

@Hollownerox

I like UQ holder so far. Not sure what negativity you're referring to... guess I must of missed a long hate train or something since I joined late.

It's not so prevalent here, but there are some forums that are filled with hate for this manga, like TV Tropes. Most of it is from people who are still bitter over Negima's ending.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by felix

@Hollownerox

I like UQ holder so far. Not sure what negativity you're referring to... guess I must of missed a long hate train or something since I joined late.

Something like that. Basically, this comes off a lot like a typical shonen series, which after the genre busting wonder that was Negima, seems.... unsatisfactory.

Personally, I just started squeeing the moment Eva showed up and never stopped. But then I like "standard Shonen" stuff.

[ellifeedn]

I just like seeing what kinds of crazy ideas the mangaka has.

[TnAdct1]

Originally Posted by Hollownerox

I'm not saying to suck it up and let this series be force fed to you, what I'm saying is that it is pretty illogical to judge something that is only 32 chapters in. Negima was still the typical Harem romantic comedy at this point, barely getting into the Kyoto arc and there wasn't a clear plot being present as of yet. Don't count your chickens before they hatch and all that.

In response to this comment:

-Keep in mind that Negima's early chapters (i.e. the first two volumes) were the result of Executive Meddling, as Kodansha wanted Ken Akamatsu to do another "harem" series (with him starting to move more towards shounen fantasy by volume 3). However, I haven't really noticed any executive meddling in terms of the early chapters of UQ Holder.

-By the end of chapter 32, there were already a number of things set up for when the story would really go into "shounen fantasy" mode. One student had already Pactio'd with Negi (Asuna), two have been revealed to be fighters and are aware of Negi being a mage (Kaede and Setsuna), and two additional students, Nodoka and Konoka, have been hinted at as eventual Pactio candidates, with the next five chapters setting up Nodoka's Pactio, something that I considered to be the point where the manga officially transitioned from "harem comedy" to "shounen fantasy".

-With these early chapters of Negima, I've been enjoying Negi (thanks in part to me being a Harry Potter fan at the time), and Nodoka was slowly growing on me. With UQ Holder OTOH, there hasn't been any character that I've grown attached to (and it doesn't help that Touta is an idiot).

[AstroNerdBoy]

Originally Posted by OverMaster

He makes a darker turn for Negima, but then that turn ends up with demons that attack a school... stripping people. And then he does a bloodier and gorier series where the old cast is dead... but surprise, the new cast can't be killed off.

Well, to be fair to Akamatsu-sensei, there are only certain things you can get away with in the shounen genre, whether it be violence, nudity, or sexual content. Exploring immortality may have been Akamatsu-sensei's goal, but he can get away with more violence in a shounen manga by having his characters be OK at the end of the day.

Still, I do understand the point you are making. Personally, I think Sensei should have just made a seinen title, where he could have his cake and eat it too.

This kind of story really would need a Seinen format and its own universe.

*lol* Now I read your similar idea, though keeping it in the same universe in a seinen publication shouldn't be a problem. After all, many of the kids who grew up reading Negima are old enough for seinen manga titles now.

Originally Posted by Endscape

It's not so prevalent here, but there are some forums that are filled with hate for this manga, like TV Tropes. Most of it is from people who are still bitter over Negima's ending.

Some folks have accused me of this, but for me, the things I dislike about UQ Holder have nothing to do with Negima. I just don't think that Akamatsu-sensei is bringing his A-game here. For me, Touta is not an interesting character. He's an extremely annoying character for the most part who can do almost anything 'cause he's the hero. From my perspective, he hasn't earned anything, unlike Negi, whom we saw earning his way every day. He may have learned things fast, but we saw him obsessed with making the effort to get to that next level.

Originally Posted by XFire

Personally, I just started squeeing the moment Eva showed up and never stopped. But then I like "standard Shonen" stuff.

So did I, but I go back to Negima there. After being teased about how powerful she was in volume 3 of that manga, when she does her dues ex machina arrival to bail Negi's butt out of the fire in volume 6, it is an awesome moment. She gets to show us a taste her badarse self rather than us hearing about it. Thus, when she shows up as Yukihime to bail Touta's bacon out of the fire (before he could find his next level up), then drops her Yukihime form for her true Eva form, I squealed with delight too.

Originally Posted by TnAdct1

-Keep in mind that Negima's early chapters (i.e. the first two volumes) were the result of Executive Meddling, as Kodansha wanted Ken Akamatsu to do another "harem" series (with him starting to move more towards shounen fantasy by volume 3). However, I haven't really noticed any executive meddling in terms of the early chapters of UQ Holder.

I agree -- I don't think there's been any executive meddling. After all, Akamatsu-sensei owns the copyrights now, so he's calling the shots. I suspect he has an editor, but not the same one he had before. It is my belief that Akamatsu-sensei, while trying to be different in some regards (and darker), is neglecting certain elements of good story telling and good character creation/development. His editor isn't helping as best as I can tell.

-With these early chapters of Negima, I've been enjoying Negi (thanks in part to me being a Harry Potter fan at the time), and Nodoka was slowly growing on me. With UQ Holder OTOH, there hasn't been any character that I've grown attached to (and it doesn't help that Touta is an idiot).

Harry Potter didn't play a role in my enjoying Negi as a character. Peter David didn't help me with the first two volumes of Negima (he did a ton of rewrites -- I've got a sample of the changes in my review of omnibus volume 1) because he removed a lot of foreshadowing. That being said, I liked all of the characters used in a meaningful way in Negima through the first two volumes and especially into volume 3. And Eva was an interesting first true villain.

With UQ Holder, obviously I liked Yukihime because she's Eva. Kuroumaru was interesting to me, though I quickly grew weary of the "is Kuroumaru a man or a woman" jokes and was glad when Sensei finally spelled that out for us. I've liked Karin from what I've seen of her. Touta's mindless, airheaded nature with the ability to do pretty much anything he wants when it comes to fighting so that he's sure to win is not only not interesting to me, it can become rather irritating. But that's just me.

I've no real feeling one way or the other with any of the other introduced characters, though Basago could get annoying to me.

There are enough interesting elements in UQ Holder to keep me coming back. I just wish Akamatsu-sensei would stop trying to be clever by half and just script a tight story and giving us character exploration. I fear that he's not going to do much character work this time in favor of tons of action, sometimes gory action.

[Dargor]

Negi knew as far back as the Chao arc that he would be considered a villain in the eyes of many, no matter what choices he makes in life. That's probably the point of him being called evil so often here. In Negima there was no good or evil, just different points of view and most of them being right.

Good luck trying to paint burning down slums and attempting to butcher orphans and nuns in cold blood in a sympathetic light. Even better is the fact that you have a crazed rapist asshat by the name of Chao (Quite ironic, given how the previous one was utilized) and Nagumo the Amazing Bigot running around. All who's paychecks are being signed by a bunch of rich people living in a tower just so they can have their land back...and Fate. Maybe.

Even in the case of Chigusa, she was at least given a motive for her douchebaggery. Sure, she was still crazy as hell, but a teeny tiny slant in a different direction could've almost made her ever so slightly sympathetic...barely. Chao and CE (Choice in membership aside) were trying to at the very least prevent a giant catastrophe that was arguably worse then what they they were ultimately doing, but all of this seems like a bunch of petty and vindictive assholes all sad that their precious land is being inhabited by squatters...all the while most of it is underwater in the first place.

it is pretty illogical to judge something that is only 32 chapters in.

I keep seeing this everywhere I go (Though it pretty much disappeared for the most part twenty chapters in), and I have to wonder...how bloody long should people wait for it to "get good"? Thirty chapters is an ample amount of time to introduce basic ideas in the setting while still dealing with a sizable portion of the cast at the very least, and we barely got the latter as it is! With our so called main characters (I've half convinced myself that Karin will not be among them. I feel we'll keep shuffling among the immortals during each arc for their exposition), there's barely anythign you can do with them as is. Kuro is set up to be a Setsuna 2.0 along with all the problems that entails, and Touta...well, idiot hero's like him rarely develop in a meaningful manner. They're entire existence is basically "I am who I am", and that leaves you at a sort of dead end developmentally, unless he gets some alter-ego or something. Regardless, Chapter 50 is to me the benchmark (A very, very generous one at that) to see if this series is worth keeping up with...too bad we're past the half-way point for that.

I'd also like to point out that a lot of the criticism UQ Holder gets is not just bitterness built up by Negima's own ending. Many people were more then willing to call foul back during the end of the MM and Sports Festival arc, way before anyone knew it was going to end in the first place. Rather, a lot of it is that people know (Or at least feel) that Akamatsu is capable of preforming a hell of a lot better then he has been for the past few years, and there's nothing worse then seeing squandered potential. Shit, you can make UQ Holder into a decent story, but so far its wasted on a trite narrative that's been done over and over as is.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Dargor

Good luck trying to paint burning down slums and attempting to butcher orphans and nuns in cold blood in a sympathetic light.

Nice strawman you have there. No one was trying to put those things in any kind of sympathetic light. The fact that bad things happen doesn't mean that Akamatsu's crapping on Negima or anything.

Even better is the fact that you have a crazed rapist asshat by the name of Chao (Quite ironic, given how the previous one was utilized)

You are aware that Chao is one of the most common Chinese family names, right? That guy and Chao Lingshen have nothing in common.

[Dargor]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Nice strawman you have there. No one was trying to put those things in any kind of sympathetic light. The fact that bad things happen doesn't mean that Akamatsu's crapping on Negima or anything.

Way to take something in a context that was never intended in the first place. Never mind the fact that I said nothing about it crapping on Negima to begin with.

You are aware that Chao is one of the most common Chinese family names, right

In a fictitious setting, I'm not putting anything past anyone. Doubt they're related, but I'll be surprised if he doesn't rear his head again, unlike Nagumo or wolf-dude. Either way, its kind of hard not to hearken it back to a character in a previous series that shared the same name, and I doubt Akamatsu did it unintentionally. Whether its just a sort of nod to people who followed Negima (Which it probably is. Don't want to confuse the new readership and all that), or not, we'll see.

[Shinji103]

I only just got around to this recently due to my backlog of anime, manga, and games >.> , but that's interesting, I remember hearing it being theorized before, but this is really a sequel/spinoff to Negima, eh?

And Touta is Negi's grandson? Let me guess, we won't find out who his grandmother, aka Negi's wife was.

[Hollownerox]

Originally Posted by Endscape

It's not so prevalent here, but there are some forums that are filled with hate for this manga, like TV Tropes. Most of it is from people who are still bitter over Negima's ending.

Yeah not so much hate here but I decided to post here simply because I know the majority of people on this site respond with legitimate comments rather than trying to tear my head off. The Animesuki forums are, in general, filled with reasonable people. But some of the other forums I've been looking at have been extremely toxic in regards to this series, and I'm not suicidal enough to post there (Internet comments still hurt my feelings for some reason )

Originally Posted by TnAdct1

In response to this comment:

-Keep in mind that Negima's early chapters (i.e. the first two volumes) were the result of Executive Meddling, as Kodansha wanted Ken Akamatsu to do another "harem" series (with him starting to move more towards shounen fantasy by volume 3). However, I haven't really noticed any executive meddling in terms of the early chapters of UQ Holder.

-By the end of chapter 32, there were already a number of things set up for when the story would really go into "shounen fantasy" mode. One student had already Pactio'd with Negi (Asuna), two have been revealed to be fighters and are aware of Negi being a mage (Kaede and Setsuna), and two additional students, Nodoka and Konoka, have been hinted at as eventual Pactio candidates, with the next five chapters setting up Nodoka's Pactio, something that I considered to be the point where the manga officially transitioned from "harem comedy" to "shounen fantasy".

-With these early chapters of Negima, I've been enjoying Negi (thanks in part to me being a Harry Potter fan at the time), and Nodoka was slowly growing on me. With UQ Holder OTOH, there hasn't been any character that I've grown attached to (and it doesn't help that Touta is an idiot).

Yeah I know about the executive meddling part, Love Hina was such a success that the publishers wanted a rehash of it. But in a way this might relate to UQ Holder. Even though there is no evidence of exec-meddling Ken probably doesn't want to have this series be another Negima. Perhaps that's why he did not announce it as a sequel to it, maybe he wanted it to be a connected yet separate entity from the Negima series. (Though I personally am hoping a tad that Touta is just a decoy protagonist and Negi will come back sooner or later.)

And I agree with your second point as well, however keep in mind that Negima was doing a full on genre shift, something quite drastic since it was Ken's form of writer revolting. UQ Holder is a shounen (presumably) start to finish and those in general tend to be extremely slow paced especially so in the beginning. (Remember when Bleach was just a monster of the week thing, and Naruto was just "I want to be the best Ninja"). Though, as you said, UQ Holder has not had nearly as much progress as Negima had in this span of time; something I'm slightly worried about.

Also what is with Japan's obsession with protagonists that are stupid? Negi was a refreshing character simply because he had some form of common sense (Though he still had his moments, but the guy was ten). Seriously, you don't need to be intellectually deficient to have suicidal heroic resolve, I miss the times where determination wasn't correlated with stupidity.

[ellifeedn]

People often connect youth with inexperience and inexperience can cause someone to do stupid things.