Attack on Titan - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[Harangue]

Originally Posted by Hmm....

One thing I find amusing about this forest base debate.

If you guys rewatch Episode 1, you will see the recon corp went all gung-ho about capture "this place" as human first outside base of operation. Where did they engage the titan at that time ? Yes, in the giant treee forest.
It seem the recon corp did plan to do exactly what Genjichan suggested afterall.

However later on in the episode when they come back beaten, the population belittle them and said exactly the same thing as monir and other about wasting their tax money blah blah blah....

The author really have all this thought out, doesn't he ? lol

Isn't that a completely different forest? In Episode 1, they were trying to claim a forest outside of the human settlement. In this episode, they are recovering a popular tourism spot inside of Wall Mariah.

[Hmm....]

Originally Posted by Harangue

Isn't that a completely different forest? In Episode 1, they were trying to claim a forest outside of the human settlement. In this episode, they are recovering a popular tourism spot inside of Wall Mariah.

Ah, no, I didn't mean the very same forest but the same type of forest. It seem to be common in attack on titan world. You can see that the tree size is similar in both episodes.

[Harangue]

Originally Posted by Hmm....

Ah, no, I didn't mean the very same forest but it is the same type of forest. It seem to be common in attack on titan world. You can see that the tree size is similar in both episodes.

Okay then, confused me for a second. Thought I'd forgotten some sort of flash-forward bit in episode 1 or something.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Harangue

Levi is such a badass, but...what the hell happened near the end there? Anyone else notice that? He clearly got smashed out of the way, blood splatter and everything, and then suddenly he was right back on his horse, even surprising the other riders.

I don't know what you're talking about. He never left his horse.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's a tactical advantage. Strategically, it brings you nothing. It just costs you men.

Men are lost even doing nothing, ok?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Even if they have "less problems", they'll still have problems. And for what?

So you're worried about small problems the same way as big ones.... learn to check which is more beneficial..... every way has its risk. Its better than doing nothing. Show me a strategy that has no problems and risk...

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Men are lost even doing nothing, ok?

In what? Training accidents and titan attacks. Does leaving men in a forest in the middle of nowhere help with that? No. So you're just going to lose additional men. For nothing. You might as well eat them yourself and cut out the middleman.

So you're worried about small problems the same way as big ones....

And when did I say that? My point, if I have to spell it out again, is that even if titans sleep at night, you're still going to lose people to those supply runs.

learn to check which is more beneficial.....

Learn the term risk/benefit analysis. And, while we're at it, punctuation.

every way has its risk. Its better than doing nothing. Show me a strategy that has no problems and risk...

I'm fine with high risk high reward actions. I wasn't hard on Eren when his aggressiveness got him eaten by a titan because I understood that to achieve something, you have to take risks, and that sometimes it doesn't pan out.

My problem with your forest plan is that it is high risk, NO reward. It achieves nothing of value and is costly.

Even if everything goes perfectly, which you seem to think is guaranteed but will, in fact, never happen, you'll tie up valuable men and material for nothing. Best case scenario? You gain nothing. Worst case scenario? You lose everything. Tell me again how it's a good idea.

[monir]

Sorry about the delay in response... I got sidetracked...

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Detachments in ours aren't like those you guys have in US.... We don't have helipads, unlimited internet, concrete roads, ample of food supply and good friendly neighbors.

As I inquired from my sources... A detachment is around 1000 sqm (pretty small) with 3 line perimeter fence ( wood, rusty wires etc),guarded by merely platoon size group (20-21 men), with two 60 machine gun and one mortar, with rations every 15 days ( just enough supplies for 15 days) either being drop by chopper or delivered by another platoon to the area. So wisely you have to be resourceful in getting food from another source... wild chicken or wild boars....or trade wiit locals.... if possible....

Thanks for the info. You pretty much highlighted the problem facing for any military-hold in the forest when the enemy are the titans. You are suggesting they live in the trees somehow, then venture out at night time to gather their own food since supply won't be readily available. You are also suggesting they can do it every night (since they should be adept at survival training) to minimize the risk of confronting titans and fight the titans during the day time. Or, if they are not fighting or seeking out confrontation with the titans, then at least stay vigilant.

Hypothetical observation and/or food for thought (): suppose the Corps manage to hold out for couple of weeks with that routine above, how would be their nerves/psychological state of mind? When are these guys sleeping or taking a break where they are just trying to forget about the titans for a minute? One of the thing this show has been very impressive about is the consistent portrayal of the state of mind of the soldiers. If they don't go crazy by week three.... here is a different element to think about: what stops the armored titan to just come rushing in with a shoulder tackle during the day time when some of em' are sleeping while others are keeping watch. I bet it will be much easier to knock them off of a tree than a fortified, giant wall and have the waiting dumb titans at the bottom to go feast-mode on the soldiers that are falling like apples from a tree.

They manage to hold the Titans with the massive fortification.. I think its time for them to expand and bring the battle away from the city....

It's not like they haven't been trying to expand outside the city limits in the last 100 years as evident from all those expedition the Corps ventured into since episode one... It's just that they haven't enjoyed any success to the never ending onslaught of titans where killing 100 only resulted into facing another 100 as if there are endless supply of titans. Replacing human casualty, on the other hand, is much much more difficult. There is a reason why the human population has been in steady decline, and is facing the threat of extinction as punctuated so many times during the show. The expansion is very much necessary for human growth and progress. A city limit gets into the way of that progress and as a result created so many problem for that society which included culling of certain portion of population in the hands of the titans for the sake of population control. Other social problems like petty corruption, or rampant crime (as highlighted in Mikasa's story) also plague them regularly. Let's not forget the threat of pandemic plague and such disease which can wipe out good number of population.

The point is, I agree that they need to expand. What you are failing to understand is that the enemy is such in titans that any expansion outside of the city limit has not been successful thus far despite humanity's best effort for the past 100 years.

Btw, the city has its own forest too, so may be that's how the people started before erecting a giant wall around it? Some more food for thought...

Which is better, using the 3D gear on open plains (pretty obvious) or high forested terrain?

I bet Levy will kill you if you recommend fighting Titans on horseback,, Yeeha!!!?

You misunderstood. I'm not suggesting they fight in the open, when there is a forest out there better suited to utilize the 3D gear for maximum effect. They have fallen back into the forest many a time in the past as pointed out in this episode. No, what I am suggesting that staying in the forest for a strategic hold is plain foolish, if not suicidal for the above reasons. What I'm saying is that the Corps can engage the titans just as effectively from the safety of their wall which the dumb ones can't climb either just like those giant trees. Behind those walls, the Corps don't have to worry about supply because they don't need to cross any open terrain to get supplies.

Relying one source of food without thinking of alternative source when in the front line is not a smart idea for a unit which is supposedly train to fight way, way, way away from home.....

Because they value their own lives....

Is survival training that hard??? And why are they fighting...isn't it to survive by any means so they could continue fight and survive....

The point that you are consistently missing from this show is that despite the best effort for expansion, humanity has been unsuccessful at seeking out new territories outside of those walls for the past hundred years. A 100-year is a very long time from human perspective, and I would be very surprised if they never thought about occupying that forest and quickly discarded the idea because it was another faulty strategy that cost lives. I know the idea has been tried in the past because the Corps know to fall back into that forest whenever they are overwhelmed by the titans in the open plains. They are just smart enough not to hold the forest for a strategic location for the aforementioned problem I have highlighted which they might have learned first hand from trying in the past.

Originally Posted by Kaizokugami

My apologies for butting in Monir, my debaters spirit was on fire.

That's quite alright. And I think we are slowly making progress too considering Genjichan has conceded at least on one point at how difficult it is to get supply on a daily basis to any army. We are slowly making him wise, and we can make him wiser yet!

[JamJackEvo]

I would like to point out that the current expedition is starting fresh.

All the fortifications and emergency supply spots the Recon Corps had done for the past 5 years since the breaching of Wall Maria is now worthless because they are not moving out from Trost, whose gate is permanently sealed.

They departed from the eastern most district of Wall Rose, Karanese, so everything there is all new to them. Not just terrain (although they might've reviewed maps), but also safe supply routes for the soldiers to trek till they reach Shiganshina. That's one of the main objectives the Recon Corps has to do, not just discovering new things about the Titans.

[monir]

Originally Posted by JamJackEvo

I would like to point out that the current expedition is starting fresh.

All the fortifications and emergency supply spots the Recon Corps had done for the past 5 years since the breaching of Wall Maria is now worthless because they are not moving out from Trost, whose gate is permanently sealed.

They departed from the eastern most district of Wall Rose, Karanese, so everything there is all new to them. Not just terrain (although they might've reviewed maps), but also safe supply routes for the soldiers to trek till they reach Shiganshina. That's one of the main objectives the Recon Corps has to do, not just discovering new things about the Titans.

Recon Corps highlight humanity's desperation perfectly. I guess that's why Eren's emergence with his newest ability comes at such an opportune moment which gives tangible hope for the first time to the possibility of human expansion from two front: a) Better way to fight back titans with minimum human casualty; b) and the invaluable knowledge gained about the titans which may enable humanity to fight the source itself of the titan problem. No wonder Recon Corps engaged into this deadly mission of bait-and-switch with Eren in the middle of it.

[Blue Longinus]

I think FT looks a bit like Annie Leonhart

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Does leaving men in a forest in the middle of nowhere help with that? No. So you're just going to lose additional men. For nothing. You might as well eat them yourself and cut out the middleman.

First of all I'm no cannibal. Why would I camp in the forest unprepared... built a hut an lives stocks. Titans don't give a damn on your chickens.

And when did I say that? My point, if I have to spell it out again, is that even if titans sleep at night, you're still going to lose people to those supply runs.

That's a true and they have to live with it.

Learn the term risk/benefit analysis. And, while we're at it, punctuation.

I think it has more benefits... and don't start labelling it stupid...

I'm fine with high risk high reward actions. I wasn't hard on Eren when his aggressiveness got him eaten by a titan because I understood that to achieve something, you have to take risks, and that sometimes it doesn't pan out.

We can't tell unless we try....

My problem with your forest plan is that it is high risk, NO reward. It achieves nothing of value and is costly.

As in COMPLETELY??? Leave some benefits...

Even if everything goes perfectly, which you seem to think is guaranteed but will, in fact, never happen, you'll tie up valuable men and material for nothing. Best case scenario? You gain nothing. Worst case scenario? You lose everything. Tell me again how it's a good idea.

You're too pessimistic, have faith.

Originally Posted by monir

You are also suggesting they can do it every night (since they should be adept at survival training) to minimize the risk of confronting titans and fight the titans during the day time. Or, if they are not fighting or seeking out confrontation with the titans, then at least stay vigilant.

I prefer twice a month. At night time.

how would be their nerves/psychological state of mind?

If everyone has gone what Levi has... NO PROBLEM....

I bet it will be much easier to knock them off of a tree than a fortified, giant wall and have the waiting dumb titans at the bottom to go feast-mode on the soldiers that are falling like apples from a tree.

You could see that the Titan's are just scratching the tree.. unless SUMO Titan's gonna.....

It's not like they haven't been trying to expand outside the city limits in the last 100 years as evident from all those expedition the Corps ventured into since episode one...

yes they do but I now if they thought building a temporary base like in the FOREST

The point is, I agree that they need to expand. What you are failing to understand is that the enemy is such in titans that any expansion outside of the city limit has not been successful thus far despite humanity's best effort for the past 100 years.

They lack strategy and technology that the blasted author is depriving them.....

Btw, the city has its own forest too, so may be that's how the people started before erecting a giant wall around it? Some more food for thought...

BUt those are unvirgin ones anymore.... You can't compare them from those outside... Tall and huge...

Behind those walls, the Corps don't have to worry about supply because they don't need to cross any open terrain to get supplies.

But they got thousands of civilians to protect as well.... if they're in the forest, it'll be themselves they have to protect. This applies IRL... we know how hard it is to keep the citizens safe while fighting at the same time... WHY DO I HAVE TO STAY WITH THEM.

That's quite alright. And I think we are slowly making progress too considering Genjichan has conceded at least on one point at how difficult it is to get supply on a daily basis to any army. We are slowly making him wise, and we can make him wiser yet!

I'm suggesting twice a months.... and don't make me look dumb....

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

First of all I'm no cannibal. Why would I camp in the forest unprepared... built a hut an lives stocks. Titans don't give a damn on your chickens.

And if they trip over your hut, it's all over. And you can only do your farming at night. And your cooking in the trees.

That's a true and they have to live with it.

No they don't. They have the option of staying home unless they have real reasons to go out.

I think it has more benefits...

But you're the only one and you refuse to explain why.

and don't start labelling it stupid...

I don't see why not.

We can't tell unless we try....

Technically we don't know if we can't get rid of the Titans through the power of human sacrifice, either. You don't see them erecting Aztek temples, do you?

As in COMPLETELY??? Leave some benefits...

What benefits? You have men where you don't need them and kill a handful of Titans. Explain how that's beneficial instead of going all ipse dixit on us.

You're too pessimistic, have faith.

Being pessimistic is thinking the odds for good scenarios are lower than they are. I'm saying that even a best case scenario isn't worth the effort, and you've done jack to show otherwise.

I prefer twice a month. At night time.

So you don't kill a lot of titans.

If everyone has gone what Levi has... NO PROBLEM....

Notice that his team - his handpicked elite - is also very nervous in the presence of titans.

You could see that the Titan's are just scratching the tree.. unless SUMO Titan's gonna.....

The more you stay, the more you risk getting an abnormal one figuring out how to make a tree fall. Or worse, an intelligent one.

yes they do but I now if they thought building a temporary base like in the FOREST

That's why they have supply caches. Those don't unnecessarily endanger badly needed men.

They lack strategy and technology that the blasted author is depriving them.....

The "get killed for no reason" strategy, you mean? They're better off without it.

BUt those are unvirgin ones anymore.... You can't compare them from those outside... Tall and huge...

Before Maria's fall, ep 18's forest was inside the walls. It was only a few years ago.

But they got thousands of civilians to protect as well....

And they've got a wall, lots of canons, and hundreds or thousands of other soldiers to do it with.

if they're in the forest, it'll be themselves they have to protect. This applies IRL... we know how hard it is to keep the citizens safe while fighting at the same time... WHY DO I HAVE TO STAY WITH THEM.

If the Titans breach a wall, they need every man in the city, not camping out in the woods. If the Titans don't breach a wall, the civilians aren't in the way and provide much needed support. (Like potatoes. Think of Sasha.)

[Guido]

Ever since the start of this current arc, stress has been building and fluctuating throughout my whole body cringing over if the expedition is going to fail or to succeed.
With each and every inch of land that the expedition moves forward the strees keeps on building up and up, and that's when carnage burst out of a sudden.

I would never imagine to hate a Titan with such burning enthusiasm than the Female Titan. That huge b***h practically knows beforehand all the combat moves and maneuver strategies, so what's it's real identity.

We definitely know by now that it's the type like Eren, so it has to be someone, functioning like a mole, inside the walls spying from within.


The worst out of all is that not even the master soldiers knew what was going on and fear gripped right into their hearts. It's the situation one when faces the unknown and is paralyzed by fear because there's no reference point, familiarity, or common factor to cling onto.
It's the type of situation that whatever you do, think, and feel right in the moment that's what counts.

Being a sort of snark to quite catch upon things, I was hell confused what was the ruckus about Erwin proceeding as schedulted when after the recon team was lost.
I have this raw epiphany which later on in the episode Armin confirmed my deep fears: Erwin's expedition in the recent past has had trouble advancing forward beyond the walls likely of the female Titan's interference. However, I don't know if Erwin's intention to bring Eren forth into formation is their means to fight off the Female Titan, although there are loops in that theory.

It would be too convenient if only Erwin and Levi knew about the Female Titan from experience, and how fearsome it is in battle while did not know about it.

Even in the slightest possibility, if the knew beforehand then what's the point of meaninglessly losing men and warfare power continuing on with the expedition when common sense would have dictated to retreat?

[darklegends8]

Originally Posted by Guido

Ever since the start of this current arc, stress has been building and fluctuating throughout my whole body cringing over if the expedition is going to fail or to succeed.
With each and every inch of land that the expedition moves forward the strees keeps on building up and up, and that's when carnage burst out of a sudden.

I would never imagine to hate a Titan with such burning enthusiasm than the Female Titan. That huge b***h practically knows beforehand all the combat moves and maneuver strategies, so what's it's real identity.

We definitely know by now that it's the type like Eren, so it has to be someone, functioning like a mole, inside the walls spying from within.


The worst out of all is that not even the master soldiers knew what was going on and fear gripped right into their hearts. It's the situation one when faces the unknown and is paralyzed by fear because there's no reference point, familiarity, or common factor to cling onto.
It's the type of situation that whatever you do, think, and feel right in the moment that's what counts.

Being a sort of snark to quite catch upon things, I was hell confused what was the ruckus about Erwin proceeding as schedulted when after the recon team was lost.
I have this raw epiphany which later on in the episode Armin confirmed my deep fears: Erwin's expedition in the recent past has had trouble advancing forward beyond the walls likely of the female Titan's interference. However, I don't know if Erwin's intention to bring Eren forth into formation is their means to fight off the Female Titan, although there are loops in that theory.

It would be too convenient if only Erwin and Levi knew about the Female Titan from experience, and how fearsome it is in battle while did not know about it.

Even in the slightest possibility, if the knew beforehand then what's the point of meaninglessly losing men and warfare power continuing on with the expedition when common sense would have dictated to retreat?

Uhh I think your questions are answered in this weeks episode.

[CrazyPerson]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

We can't tell unless we try....

You're too pessimistic, have faith.

Really? You actually think they should just randomly give things a try and hope for benefits? What army in the world does this for the off-chance for benefits? No army makes gambles unless they absolutely need to or the benefits outweigh the problems. Almost every post in the thread has pointed out why it's not intelligent to tie an army up somewhere with no supply line.

It seems your main point is that an army in the trees can forage supplies for itself and the titans can't climb trees.

-snip-

-Second: There's no raising livestock in huts or raised platforms. Livestock need food and space to grow, lots of food and space. You're not going to be farming/foraging enough for them. There's also no way to build enough platforms space for them to be self-sufficient too. Now that the chickens are on the ground you'll be attacked every time you went down to raise/catch a chicken. Don't say "go get them when titan's aren't there" because the whole point of the outpost is to attract attention. They're always going to be there. Can't even play the distraction game either, if you're there long enough, they'll be there in enough numbers that they can't all be distracted away. (Abnormals too) Sure, they'll avoid livestock, but the livestock will get trampled as well. Not only can you not feed the livestock, there's no place to keep them.

-Third: What about non-food supplies? Those blades break, those gas canisters go empty. It's been specifically stated that the hardened steel (and gas) they need to make and maintain the 3D gears is produced by the heavy industries in the cities. Can't move those industries to the trees; they'd need a supply line.

-Fourth: You just have a high-risk outpost with supply caches along the way. So you drain resources from the city, risk an army 24/7, and probably not attract all the titans away from the cities anyway. The giant forest is East of Higansha, so all the titans North and South of that city will go to the city anyway. Congratulations, you've just distracted 1/3rd of all the titans away from a city that was built to distract titans anyway. Department of redundancy department!

-Fifth: You can't infinitely forage for even a small squad infinitely. Eventually they eat all the berries or kill all the animals. Hunter gatherers back then had to migrate to keep fed. They can't migrate out of the trees for more foraging area. Might take a little while, but it'll eventually happen.

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

So you're worried about small problems the same way as big ones.... learn to check which is more beneficial..... every way has its risk. Its better than doing nothing. Show me a strategy that has no problems and risk...

You're wrong here. In economics the "do nothing" option is considered viable if you lose less than doing something. You wait until a more beneficial option appears before acting instead of going acting on a bad decision immediately. Those supposedly small problems are cumulative too.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And if they trip over your hut, it's all over. And you can only do your farming at night. And your cooking in the trees.

I don't think think they could trip your hut when it's on top of the tree. Don't know you heard of raising veges on pots?

They have the option of staying home unless they have real reasons to go out.

They have to unless they want to be stuck the way they are and wait for the two special ones to keep ramming walls one by one....

But you're the only one and you refuse to explain why.

I explained it but all you say is how to keep you "elite pampered" and fat....

Technically we don't know if we can't get rid of the Titans through the power of human sacrifice, either.

Until then.... we have to do what we can do.... even if it cost lives....

What benefits? You have men where you don't need them and kill a handful of Titans. Explain how that's beneficial instead of going all ipse dixit on us.

DO I have to repeat everything???

Being pessimistic is thinking the odds for good scenarios are lower than they are. I'm saying that even a best case scenario isn't worth the effort, and you've done jack to show otherwise.

I find this unproductive.... if one so damn caring about human lives... why seen a elite corp out in the wilderness in the first place.... Just wait for extinction....

So you don't kill a lot of titans.

Resupplying once every 15 days.. you got two weeks luring Titans and ambushing them inside the forest...

Notice that his team - his handpicked elite - is also very nervous in the presence of titans.

It's normal to be afraid... being scared and unwilling to act is stupid...for an elite..

The more you stay, the more you risk getting an abnormal one figuring out how to make a tree fall. Or worse, an intelligent one.

Same goes on the walls no? I think it might take some times as these Titans did on the walls... I think these would have been effective if done a couple of years ago...

That's why they have supply caches. Those don't unnecessarily endanger badly needed men.

Is it my eyes or I see wagons following the corps.....

The "get killed for no reason" strategy, you mean? They're better off without it.

I never said that, lols

And they've got a wall, lots of canons, and hundreds or thousands of other soldiers to do it with.

But look what happens..... it didn't done anything during the surprise attack

If the Titans breach a wall, they need every man in the city, not camping out in the woods. If the Titans don't breach a wall, the civilians aren't in the way and provide much needed support. (Like potatoes. Think of Sasha.)

The objective of base camp is :

1. Front line of defense against Titans

2. Luring the Titans to a

> Less populated area away from the walled cities
> With strategic advantage for their 3rd gear
> Providing an effective ambush site against Titans

3. Serve as a resupplying area for Recon corp.

4. Training area for actual combat experience..

5. A front for further expansion..

Supplies could be resource from wild games or livestock being raise ABOVE. Other necessity could be sent twice a month from the main base inside the cities every 15 days at night.

[kitsunisan]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

and don't make me look dumb....

There's absolutely zero benefit to having a post in the woods. It gains nothing for them. At the level of tech they have, there's no way they can hunt at night to sustain themselves without frequent supply trains, which just puts more men at risk. There's just no point in it.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by kitsunisan

There's absolutely zero benefit to having a post in the woods. It gains nothing for them. At the level of tech they have, there's no way they can hunt at night to sustain themselves without frequent supply trains, which just puts more men at risk. There's just no point in it.

This really makes me laugh. Did mention NIGHT hunting?? Give another reason and not based from previous posts

[Kayin]

Being a manga reader I know everything about the Female Titan, but damn, the anime has made her ten times more awesome. They'd be so screwed if all the titans fought like that.

Aside from the human-form Titans that I know about, most of the mystery surrounding the "normal" Titans is still unresolved - even in the manga. Anyway, expect more awesome from the Female Titan with 19 and 20, but the regular Titans won't have their secrets revealed for quite a while it seems.

[darklegends8]

Originally Posted by Kayin

Being a manga reader I know everything about the Female Titan, but damn, the anime has made her ten times more awesome. They'd be so screwed if all the titans fought like that.

Aside from the human-form Titans that I know about, most of the mystery surrounding the "normal" Titans is still unresolved - even in the manga. Anyway, expect more awesome from the Female Titan with 19 and 20, but the regular Titans won't have their secrets revealed for quite a while it seems.

Episode.. 20, probably, is going to be so depressing ;_;