[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

^a lot of your red truths need "...after having the room sealed for the first time" attached to them.

Edited as suggested, but I think you understand my timing argument right?

At the time Erika was busy committing the murders. Because she had forsaken the detective's authority, anything around her and during that time could have done anything at all without her knowing.

In short, it wasn't a perfect closed room until Erika stepped in.

If Erika were to refute this and we were debating, I'd ask her to repeat this:

'you killed them instanteously' or 'That it was impossible for Kanon to enter the room before Erika does.'

[GuestSpeaker]

This truth is doubtlessly true even outside the catbox. Examples given are, the existence of a Beatrice in Kuwadorian in 1967, that there are no more than 18 people on the island, both from EP3, and that Natsuhi was sitting all alone in the rose garden from EP5.

How sad, I suppose Kinzo never really did trust Natsuhi not even once.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

How sad, I suppose Kinzo never really did trust Natsuhi not even once.

Well, it doesn't necessarily mean he didn't like her at least
He didn't even trust his own children further than their own shadows...if probed with Red Truth, the only person he really TRUSTS would probably be Genji. The part of Kinzo Bern was torturing Natsuhi with was centrally about trust in the sense of giving her the One-Winged Eagle.

But it's still kinda sad...

[GuestSpeaker]

I think the true moral of Umineko is that Kinzo was a really terrible human being in like 95% of the ways that matter.

[AuraTwilight]

Even if that's true, it's probably not the moral of the story since he's a non-entity for pretty much every non-backstory part of it.

[Drifloon]

Well, he's not physically there, but you could certainly argue that it's his influence on all the other family members, and on Yasu, that's at the root of all the problems at the family conference.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Well, he's not physically there, but you could certainly argue that it's his influence on all the other family members, and on Yasu, that's at the root of all the problems at the family conference.

Though if you absolve the family members of their flaws by extension of Kinzo, you could also say that he simply became the man he was because of him being forced into a life he hated, a marriage with a woman he didn't love and was incapable to ever realize even one of his dreams.

Yes, Kinzo was very likely on the one hand a horrible person, but also very much a product of his environment.

[GuestSpeaker]

I think you can blame a lot on his environment, but building his family home on top of a bomb and the home of his mistress outside of its radius is pretty cruddy

[DaBackpack]

The only evidence we have of Kinzo having knowledge of the bomb is in the Forgeries, so maybe we can blame the authors' perception of Kinzo :P Also, we have no confirmation that there was a mechanism to control the bomb in the Golden Land.

Is it possible that Kinzo really didn't know about the bomb in R-Prime and that it was truly an accident? Can you screw up that badly as an landowner? I mean, Krauss went years without noticing anything suspicious...

[GuestSpeaker]

Krauss probably did know about Kuwadorian since he had that fly-over audit, the rest was all underground I assume. He was never really alive that long to talk about it.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Krauss probably did know about Kuwadorian since he had that fly-over audit, the rest was all underground I assume. He was never really alive that long to talk about it.

Unless the manga makes an argument in another direction I'd assume though that Krauss did not know about the underground explosives. Access was probably blocked off not only from the entrance close to the chapel but also from the Kuwadorian side.
At least Krauss and Rosa did know about Kuwadorian, but the underground tunnels are a completely different story depending on how well they were hidden.

The argument of living somewhere for a long time does not exactly count as an argument. I lived my whole childhood above an old WWII bunker system possibly connected to the cole mining company that existed directly next to my childhood home from before the war to before I was born. The entrances had been walled shut and I always assumed that they must have filled it all up, but who knows.

[GuestSpeaker]

I may have been unclear, I was saying that I believe that Krauss knew about Kuwadorian and NOT the underground stuff, so we are likely in agreement.

Krauss would never have left his family on top of a pile of explosives, but he potentially would have known about his dad's secret hideaway and not said anything to Natsuhi (after all, he has done it before with the gold). He probably had the place checked out and knows it is empty, so never brings it up as a potential place for someone on the island to be hiding.

[jjblue1]

No idea if the manga will give more info about the explosives but I like how its scenes are much more filled with emotions and give the characters much more deep.
When Ange cries out her pain at Beato, Beato thinks back at how she too suffered while in the visual novel she's just trying to be wise, adult and all knowing.
It's also good how Erika trashes Battler in a duel of red and blue about the current mystery of Umineko instead than just having the two of them fighting on closed room murders.
I also like how Beato catches Battler, resquing him from the goats, in a scene that reminds me of the killer fan.
And I really want to see the full episode and not just random pages because I've gotten curious about the message bottle Ange read as there was not such scene in the visual novel...

[GuestSpeaker]

So like a good little fanboy I have been ordering the umineko manga and giving Ryu more of my sparse amounts of cash, and I was so excited to get to the first red truth battle.

Except it isn't red truth, it's bold font. Was the colour just changed in the online versions, or did the Japenese fanbase actually get red?

This is not a red truth
This is a red truth

[GoldenLand]

Huh, you're right. I'm not a big fan of the ep 2 manga art, so I didn't read the whole thing through. But Yen Press really is only using bold text, not red text. It looks really silly that way. "From now on, WHEN I SPEAK THE TRUTH, I WILL USE BLACK BOLD CAPS." Unconvincing.

I'd been under the impression that the Japanese release uses real red text, but I can't confirm it.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I'd been under the impression that the Japanese release uses real red text, but I can't confirm it.

It doesn't.

[AuraTwilight]

Scanlations changed it to red with image manipulation. Red ink is effin' expensive for manga printing, you guys.

[Renall]

Going from B&W to any form of color would be wicked expensive, yes.

---

In completely unrelated news, I still sometimes keep thinking about this stuff.

Spoiler for Red Truth, The Baby, Yasu's Lack of Self:

[03:44:30 PM] Renall: You know, I think I realized something: There can't have been a baby.
[03:44:47 PM] Renall: The discussion of the ep8 manga separating gameboard and general red truth reminded me of something.
[03:46:22 PM] Renall: When Bern is mocking Natsuhi about being entrusted with the one-winged eagle by Kinzo, she puts down that notion and there's the red "The real Kinzo never once ordered Natsuhi to protect that honor."
[03:46:41 PM] Renall: Now if you look at it solely in the context of the ep1 scene then it just means "that scene didn't happen." But according to the manga people that one is suggested as a more general red.
[03:47:52 PM] Renall: Meaning Kinzo NEVER trusted Natsuhi to bear the one-winged eagle. If he'd given her his ACTUAL biological child, would he not be entrusting the one-winged eagle to her? That's literally what having the one-winged eagle means within the family (it's also a symbol of trust, but Natsuhi thinks of it in the familial sense as she recognizes even in her own delusion that she cannot overtly display the symbol).
[03:48:52 PM] Renall: So I think Yasu was probably just a random orphan boy that Kinzo was going to have symbolically adopted as a form of atonement. Note also Fukuin = Gospel and Jesus is a child from seemingly nowhere entrusted to Mary as a figure of great importance.
[03:49:00 PM] Renall: And Kanon's name is Yoshiya/Yeshua/Jesus
[03:50:54 PM] Renall: Meaning further that Yasu's furniture complex is not merely physical (which is bad enough) but ALSO in perhaps realizing that she was always a manipulated figure being configured to carry out a role, and this would have been true even if he'd been raised as Lion. Which kinda could make sense of Bern attacking it, if you take it as Yasu realizing that the happy fantasy of Lion's existence wouldn't necessarily be true because she wasn't really ever Kinzo's child.
[03:51:24 PM] Renall: Yet it also seems Kinzo didn't CARE, since he operates more or less entirely on symbolism (the epitaph requires only knowledge and imposes a role regardless of who does it, etc.).
[03:56:50 PM] Renall: This also adds further layers of complexity to Natsuhi's rejection of the child. What if she was suspicious that it was Kinzo's child? What if that's why she rejected it? It becomes a double-sided tragedy as the baby has essentially been rejected by everyone, hence "why didn't you just let me die" because in Yasu's eyes that rejection means she had no purpose to even exist anymore because Kinzo knew the truth and Natsuhi refused to accept the fantasy, so she was furniture with no purpose and no reason to exist.
[04:00:33 PM] Renall: I'unno just something that came to me.
[04:01:02 PM] Aura: it makes sense
[04:01:17 PM] Aura: does this theory also negate the Beato-rape or
[04:01:43 PM] Renall: No no
[04:01:45 PM] Renall: That happened
[04:01:49 PM] Renall: And there was a baby presented to Natsuhi
[04:01:53 PM] Renall: There just wasn't a child of Beatrice-2
[04:02:00 PM] Renall: Kinzo's atonement is symbolic
[04:02:34 PM] Renall: I think this squares it with the captain's story and Rosa's story
[04:02:44 PM] Renall: In neither case is there any suggestion of a pregnancy or imminent/recent birth
[04:03:04 PM] Aura: also none of the romances are incest
[04:03:14 PM] Aura: bonus!
[04:03:17 PM] Renall: I also think it makes more thematic sense if Yasu essentially has no past and no anchor to anything
[04:03:24 PM] Renall: Because that fits with her sense of self-worthlessness
[04:03:41 PM] Aura: and also the true master of Rokkenjima is an illusion with no form etc etc
[04:03:43 PM] Renall: If she truly believed she actually WAS the child of Beatrice, then at least she has family. She has history. Horrible as it may be, she'd know of her parents.
[04:04:10 PM] Aura: it also means Genji isn't a TOTAL liar in EP1
[04:04:23 PM] Renall: Also it makes somewhat more sense of her decision to fully adopt Beatrice's appearance and persona: She is essentially manipulated into becoming that appearance (in having to dress up before meeting Kinzo), then incorporates it into her own witch persona and takes ownership of it.
[04:04:50 PM] Aura: also the thing about witches only becoming witches when they have no other recourse.
[04:05:12 PM] Renall: I think this also makes sense of the "a tragedy is inevitable" claim
[04:05:21 PM] Renall: The excuses for not wanting Lion to succeed seem very flimsy
[04:05:29 PM] Renall: They're all "too young" which doesn't seem to make a lot of sense
[04:05:34 PM] Renall: Everyone was cool with it before, why now?
[04:05:47 PM] Renall: But I think "this kid isn't even a member of our family, let alone Krauss and Natsuhi's son" is a good reason
[04:05:56 PM] Renall: But you wouldn't outright SAY THAT
[04:06:58 PM] Aura: also it means Yasu missing three years of her life isn't a huge plothole
[04:07:17 PM] Aura: "Huh, I'm 3 years old? I thought I was a newborn babby lol"
[04:07:46 PM] Renall: I think she was the baby though if only because I don't see a point in discounting the sex thing and I can't see why they'd mangle a random baby
[04:08:14 PM] Renall: So I'm willing to go with the voluminous evidence that Yasu was born male and somehow had his sex reassigned following the Natsuhi thing
[04:08:44 PM] Renall: So perhaps the attachment to Battler is the desire to create a sense of self and a history with a person who does not care about Yasu's nonexistent past. And the "promise" is a promise of continuity into the future. It's stability for the first time in her life.
[04:09:07 PM] Renall: To have that disrupted goes right back to the notion that she's nothing, just something other people make use of for their own desires.
[04:09:35 PM] Aura: True
[04:09:48 PM] Renall: Although I still don't buy this as motive for murder
[04:10:08 PM] Renall: But I think it makes sense of her thought process and self-worth, and makes a LOT of sense of why she's willing to just go with George
[04:10:23 PM] Renall: Because yes, he's just imposing a role onto her, but that's all she's got and he appears to be serious.
[04:10:24 PM] Aura: hell it explains why she's so indecisive in the first place
[04:10:33 PM] Renall: But does she WANT that? Perhaps not.
[04:10:37 PM] Renall: And that's why she can't be sure.
[04:11:17 PM] Renall: She's also experimenting with trying to be male with Jessica, and there I think the issue is more a lingering distrust of his/her ability to pull it off than Jessica being manipulative or role-defining since she isn't.
[04:11:21 PM] Renall: But maybe he fears that she is.
[04:12:03 PM] Renall: So in a way Beatrice presenting herself to Battler is her presenting an image to Battler and asking him to recognize and acknowledge it as herself.
[04:12:10 PM] Renall: But he rejects it.
[04:12:42 PM] Renall: Yet I think he wasn't rejecting it for the reasons she was fearing and so that's why he flips sides and goes all out on trying to fix things.
[04:13:10 PM] Renall: Because once he actually understands, he accepts the image she's created as her true self and even TRIES TO RECREATE IT.
[04:13:29 PM] Renall: Yet at the same time (if we accept Genius Battler), he won't impose it on the reborn Beato.
[04:13:40 PM] Aura: Right.
[04:13:40 PM] Renall: It's her identity, she has to rediscover it herself.
[04:13:53 PM] Aura: The whole "I accept you as a witch" thing in Chiru becomes a lot prettier this way.
[04:13:59 PM] Renall: The parallel there to Kinzo is also less icky.
[04:14:02 PM] Renall: Because it's NOT the same.
[04:14:04 PM] Renall: Battler ISN'T Kinzo
[04:14:18 PM] Aura: also it makes Bern wrong about Beatrice. Her suffering IS more significant.
[04:14:22 PM] Renall: Because Kinzo's efforts are to manipulate Yasu into becoming the child he couldn't apologize to because the child didn't exist.
[04:14:44 PM] Renall: Battler's efforts are solely to provide Beatrice with the framework she presented to him, and allow her to rediscover herself according to that framework.
[04:14:51 PM] Renall: Battler doesn't do anything Beatrice didn't already do to him first
[04:15:02 PM] Renall: It's not HIS vision, and it's even stated in Dawn that his goal is to show he understands HER game.
[04:15:59 PM] Renall: So he gives the game back to her and says "Beatrice would know what to do," with the subtext being "if you are Beatrice, you'll figure it out. If you don't, you're not Beatrice, so don't worry about it."
[04:19:26 PM] Renall: Also this makes a loooooooooot of sense of Maria's virgin birth story and the connection between her and Yasu
[04:19:42 PM] Renall: And contrasts their two powers
[04:20:11 PM] Renall: Maria finds a void (a lack of a father, a lack of a past) and fills it in with something (then my father must be divine).
[04:20:31 PM] Renall: Yasu finds a void (her lack of a past) and isn't sure what to do with it; she needs something to fill in there that she can then accept.
[04:21:11 PM] Renall: Yasu-as-Beatrice can manipulate impressions and create a truth out of deception, but she can't just whole-cloth generate truth. Maria can.
[04:21:59 PM] Renall: And this is perhaps also why Ange can't really fit in with their group; Ange knows who she is, even though she was ironically conceived out of wedlock and only has her identity on the happiest of coincidences.

[erneiz_hyde]

That would also tie up the issue of when (or if) Beatrice 2 actually conceived, and if she already had, why she didn't show any consideration towards the child when Rosa took her out.

Gosh, that really explains a lot of things.

[Wanderer]

Regarding Erika solving the logic error... I have and have read all 3 volumes of EP8 that have been released here in Japan, but that scene has yet to happen. Volume 3 ends when Ange realizes that "The Book of One Truth" is in the chapel, which happens before Battler and Erika have their logic duel. The back pages of volume 3 also say that volume 4 comes out in December.

So, I'm confused.