Macross Delta the Movie - Passionate Walkūre - Discussion Thread

[ippus]

Originally Posted by charles883

By the way you guys still havent give your ranking on your Macross movie?

Honestly, it wouldn't be particularly comparable fights between the movies;;; Macross Frontier has two movies, one of which is a retelling and both came out a little after the series. Delta was a remix that also comes after a series while DYRL comes way way way after a massive series ridden with Nostalgia. Anything outside of that are few multipart OVAs while M7's OVAs are practically extra episodes.

How do you compare short standalone stories to retellings and things backed by a largely fleshed out context? Do you neglect the serials and look at each on their own? If so then it's not really fair to put it up against the likes of Zero or Plus given they get more actual time to pull out the story...or are just part of a story.

In the end it's much easier to just rank your favourite macross than just go at it by movies...

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Tak

For example, Eureka 7, Mouretsu Pirates.

Tak, those two are somewhat bad examples, really.
In Eureka 7, Kawamori was only responsible for the mechas' design; and Bodacious Space Pirates was produced by Satelight - he didn't really have any direct involvement with it, as far as I can remember.

[Tak]

Oh well, I tried putting him in a good light.

NEVERMIND.

- Tak

[HirouKeimou]

Every creator has... off days... or years...?

/is shot trying to help

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Tak

NEVERMIND.

lolololololol

[magnuskn]

Yes, I know.
However, as I said, there are scenes and even whole episodes (like I said, episode 8) wherein Sheryl is straight up stealing all of the spotlight for herself with Alto while being friendly with Ranka despite semi-knowing Ranka's feelings for Alto at this point.

Yeah, you're leaving out that Alto explicitly told Sheryl that he had no feelings for Ranka in episode 5. And while Sheryl still denied to herself that she had feelings for Alto between episodes 6 to 11, they were definitely there. I don't see why she would have to step back and let Ranka fumble her way around.

And ironically, the writers are self-aware of their choice because Nanase points it out in episode 8 (again, prior to episode 11): Sheryl is an outsider like Ranka who knows nothing about their world and bursts in and decides to act like a primadona.

Oh, please. Nanase was more into Ranka than Alto ever was. She is the worst judge of character in relation to everything regarding Ranka you could find.

The biggest issue I have in her character is like all characters in Frontier: Their personalities or motivations change by episode. For instance, you're pointing towards episode 11 as a defense, but do remember earlier in the episode wherein Sheryl discovers Ranka is planning on inviting Alto to her concert with front row tickets for his birthday. Even though Ranka planned for his birthday in advance (a little bit) and Sheryl herself had never once asked him or his friends when his birthday is, she once again decided to try and steal the spotlight last minute.

Once again, Sheryl already was very much into Alto at that point, though she only admitted it to herself at the end of the episode. She wanted to give him the perfect birthday gift and actually thought what he would like to do. Ranka instead came at it from the angle what she wanted to be a good birthday gift for Alto. Sheryl didn't owe Ranka anything and actually gave something important to Alto.

I find her characterization and its progression to be extremely consistent throughout the series, same wih Alto. Ranka is much more spotty, which is why she got particular attention in the movies, while both Alto and Sheryl suffered some pretty significant downgrades in that department.

[ippus]

Zzzz

The very idea that a more forceful Sheryl is either bad or less rivalrous is pretty derp to begin with. Unlike the movies Ranka was as much a shiny new stranger to Alto as Sheryl was, and managed to surprise him on a multitude of occasions into being seriously romantically confused to the point that everyone and their moms were telling him to make up his goddamn mind.

TV Ranka actually had a chance at him and tv Sheryl rightfully felt insecure by that. Who in their right minds blurbs their feelings into the open when there is a very high chance at heartbreak? Not even Freyja would say jack shit until Mirage forcefully confessed on THE LAST EPISODE at a guy she knew she had ZERO CHANCE WITH. Bloody think about that. Freyja knew she had a short lifespan and that Mirage likes Hayate as well, that hasn't stopped HER from sticking to him like glue so why in the world should the standard be different for Sheryl.

Speaking of which, Sheryl when realizing she was going to die, actively started pushing Alto away. He's the one that chose to stick by her. She thought it better for him to think her a coward than ever letting him know that she was dying. Bloody priorities.

Also Movie and TV Sheryl did the same thing. Both recognized Ranka liked Alto and that Alto possibly might like her back, and still actively went after him cus he endeared to her. Heck this stuff about movie Sheryl's fire being snuffed out- THE GIRL SANG HERSELF INTO A COMA.

Huff.

And just one more
She wrote
Lyrics
In a Jail Cell
ON A WALL

WITH HER OWN BLOOD
WHICH SHE COUGHED OUT
FROM HER OWN MOUTH


Which I'd say is pretty damn metal compared to eureka by Zentraedi panties.

[HirouKeimou]

I'll put it like this: We, as the audience viewing the episode, know of Sheryl's intentions because of her monologue. However, would you understand it if you were in Ranka's shoes? Because if I were, I'd not wanna be friends with a girl who would one minute encourage my celebration of his birthday (and not wanna be invited herself, mind you) and then grab the spotlight by stealing him off to somewhere else instead of simply joining the party. And Alto is not the only one in the wrong for not calling Ranka, as I understood, all three of them had each other's contact info, and Sheryl did not call Ranka either (whether Ranka could reschedule or join them is not really a debate).

Which is why I bring up writing in her character, because ever since episode 8, you could see a change in Ranka's demeanor around Sheryl, and Sheryl never once noticed how her once "fan" didn't like being around her anymore. And if the writers are trying to tell me Sheryl is shallow by not noticing her choices are ruining her friendship with Ranka by not talking to Ranka upfront... they're doing a great job in the TV series...

Communication is all those girls needed, and it's a bloody shame it's only really shown in the movies...

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Oh, please. Nanase was more into Ranka than Alto ever was. She is the worst judge of character in relation to everything regarding Ranka you could find.

No, Nanase is right: Sheryl butted into their group (even if you exclude Ranka) and acted like she owned the place. Hell, while she called Alto her slave, she bossed everyone around in episode 8, even poor Luca who's gear she later broke (even if not completely her fault). Sheryl basically barged into all their lives and decided to do her own thing, never mind everyone else's lives...

And one episode later, she's trying to console Alto about Michael's past. I don't buy the writing one bit sometimes but I guess filler episodes will be like that. The problem is, it's normally not canon in a manga-based anime, but in something like Frontier, it's canon. So Sheryl is a rubrics cube of weirdness when it comes to her writing.

And it's not like she's been the only Macross written female that sometimes could be off episode-to-episode: I remember SDF-1 sometimes and how Minmei could bounce from "I don't like Hikaru" to "I love you Hikaru" in like whiplash speed. It's not because either character is bad, but it does show areas where the writer said "screw it, I'm doing this because drama is needed here."

-
And yeah, now I remember why I really didn't like this forum at all: Heaven forbid someone should ever point out flaws in your precious characters or series you like, heaven forbid someone should have an opinion which clashes with yours; you especially (and a couple of others) don't like it when someone doesn't agree with you. And if you don't even wanna see someone else's side in general, don't even bring up your side at all. If you feel like you're screaming at a wall, look in a mirror. Because I have been saying over and over again I do like Sheryl as a character but the more I talk to you guys here on this forum, the more I really do wanna hate her for existing if this is how the fandom is.

[Tenzen12]

Sheryl is good, she knows she is good and she is expect everyone know it too. So yes she might come as overbearing and arogant at times, but she decent and generous person notwithstanding. Just because she has several sides of her doesn't make her inconsitent.

Minmay in other hand was stupid kid that got suddenly famous. She didn't know what she wanted and expected everyone provide her exactly that and would go for whatever whim she got at moment. But again that's how she is. You find people like that everywhere especially among young idols

Sheryl being more than just arogant idol nor Minmay being exactly that, make inconsitent or bad writing. And while this post might look like I dislike former (and I do dislike her), she is actually brilliantly written (unlikable and shallow as she is) character.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Communication is all those girls needed, and it's a bloody shame it's only really shown in the movies...

Frontier TV was written by Yoshino as a romcom. In interviews he admits he was deliberately going for a sort of harem vibe. Lack of communication is expected in that kind of storyline. This wasn't a writing fuck up. They were going for it.

The movie version played that expect of the show down because Kawamori re-arranged the story himself and he wasn't a fan of that kind of things.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Sheryl is good, she knows she is good and she is expect everyone know it too. So yes she might come as overbearing and arogant at times, but she good and generous person notwithstanding. Just because she has several sides of her doesn't make her inconsitent.

Minmay in other hand was stupid kid that got suddenly famous. She didn't know what she wanted and expected everyone provide her exactly that and would go for whatever whim she got at moment.

Sheryl being more than just arogant idol nor Minmay being exactly that, make inconsitent or bad writing. And while this post might look like I dislike former (and I do dislike her), she is actually brilliantly written (unlikable and shallow as she is) character.

The good part about each of their counterparts is they had other versions of themselves if you didn't like the initial impression.

For instance, I liked movie Sheryl for her consistent personality vs. her TV self that could be prude like TV Minmei at times. I don't know if the novel version of Sheryl is good or bad, seeing as I didn't really read a lot of it to know if she's consistent in her character; but her manga self is consistent for a majority of the story (Kiss in the Galaxy notwithstanding in this argument because I'm talking the official Frontier manga).

Minmei is a curious case at times. I didn't really ship Minmei and Hikaru from the beginning so I could say I like both versions of her?

I guess it's more noticeable how other media can show off flaws in characters because Delta's official manga and novel portrayed Hayate as overwhelming obsessed with Freyja from the beginning because of her singing in their first meeting; but the TV series had a gradual build towards it in the first 13 episodes which felt more natural. Then it continued to stretch on in the second half to the point where it really didn't feel like Hayate was in love with Freyja (or initially obsessed like in the movie, novels, and manga). The finale really showed how stretched out Delta was because their initial "we'll do the second arc in a movie" was cancelled.

And yes, there are character flaws in all forms of work, but ignoring them in favor of praising your favorite character never does justice I feel. I mean, I can admit Ranka has loads of flaws. Do I accept those flaws and still love her as a character? Yes. Can I accept others feel she has flaws? Within reason and if they bring a sound argument from the CHARACTER'S point of view (not the audience) then yes, I can.

[Tenzen12]

To be honest I don't think Ranka had any glaring flaws either.

... Putting aside complete lack of any charisma that could explain her popularity of course (Nothing against Megumi Nakajima, she is pretty pleasant on ears, but I don't think her singing could be reason either.)

[Tak]

... wow, I just saw ten years past flashing before my very eyes!

I say lets get back to our favorite pastime of bashing Windermere, that is something we can all do, together...

- Tak

[Tenzen12]

But I like Windermere and don't want bash them!

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

But I like Windermere and don't want bash them!

Liar!

- Tak

[ippus]

Originally Posted by Tak

...

I say lets get back to our favorite pastime of bashing Windermere, that is something we can all do, together...

- Tak

Don't, the mods will close us down. Gotta rotate that off topic of the month.
Something something Delta movie.

[HirouKeimou]

I'm... surprisingly impartial to Windermere as a nation. (After all, if I slapped on the actions of select individuals onto a whole culture, I'd basically be hating on Germany for Hitler and... that's not right at all...)

But I do really dislike Roid as a character in general. While I could sympathize with Keith for his brother's condition (who's is used like a tool by both his father and supposed best friend later on) and also other Knights who really didn't wanna fight the war (Bogue is not in this area) but had to... Roid's motivation always felt... shallow and pointless. This guy wants to join everyone into a hive mind for peace? Has this guy seen any media in said genre? It never works. Exhibit A: Fallout. Period.

[Tenzen12]

It never work, because it's never allowed work. There will always be bunch of meddlesome kids who believe in overrated individuality and ruins everything.

Did you ever seen complaining Cyber-man? Or Borgs indulging themselves in civil war? Only when individuality come into picture everything start fall apart

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

And yeah, now I remember why I really didn't like this forum at all: Heaven forbid someone should ever point out flaws in your precious characters or series you like, heaven forbid someone should have an opinion which clashes with yours; you especially (and a couple of others) don't like it when someone doesn't agree with you. And if you don't even wanna see someone else's side in general, don't even bring up your side at all. If you feel like you're screaming at a wall, look in a mirror. Because I have been saying over and over again I do like Sheryl as a character but the more I talk to you guys here on this forum, the more I really do wanna hate her for existing if this is how the fandom is.

<shrug> If you can't handle the heat, don't play. Because this is the wrong thread, I'll let it lie. The mods otherwise are going to have to delete posts, anyway.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

It never work, because it's never allowed work. There will always be bunch of meddlesome kids who believe in overrated individuality and ruins everything.

Did you ever seen complaining Cyber-man? Or Borgs indulging themselves in civil war? Only when individuality come into picture everything start fall apart

Even though Windermere is obviously a race of advanced humans, they can act surprisingly human, which is probably why I do sympathize with various characters on their team. As a nation, they are lied to by their leaders and pulled into a war no one would, in their right mind with understanding, go into...

The movie only adds to this thought because we're never given a reason of why Windermere is fighting our heroes aside from Bogue's throwaway comment on how Earthlings began it...