Honey and Clover II

[potholes]

Originally Posted by Ayumi

Yesterday I saw the last episode, and I feel a little nostalgic, because it's hard to believe that it's over. I'll miss every character, Takemoto, Hagu, Morita, Yamada, Mayama... But, I must say, this second part of the history was awesome. First of all, Takemoto changed a lot; he became more courageous. I also liked how Hagu became older, not only because of her appearence, but also her personality. In Honey and Clover I, she was "perfect" and "untouchable", yet in Honey and Clover II she seems more human, at least to me. Yamada, always cute and, at the same time, always crying and Mayama, who fighted for Rika until the end. I also enjoyed to see Morita and Kaoru history (ep. 7 is one of my favourites). Morita is not so funny like in H&C II, but Morita is always Morita: it's impossible (for me) not admire and like him.

I think that more than love, H&C is about friendship and H&CII is the real proof of it. They can be in love forever, or not. But, in the end, they will always be friends. The end was great, lovely, yet sad. The final scene with Takemoto talking about his feelings is very powerfull. I admire H&C; it made me think over and over again. It's about life, about people and feelings. It made me laugh (Shinobu!) and smile.

you summed up my thoughts real nice Ayumi that's exactly what I thought of H&C 1&2. Love doesn't always mean you have to be together to really appreciate what it means. It comes in a lot of different shapes and circumstances.

[Ayumi47644]

Exactly, that's what I thought when I saw H&C, and I think that's a big message that the author is trying to say to us

[mycen]

Originally Posted by Ayumi

Exactly, that's what I thought when I saw H&C, and I think that's a big message that the author is trying to say to us

Indeed!! That's why I like H&C series I an II so much. Awesome storyline and character interaction .

[potholes]

i wish there is more anime of this calibre out there.

[Cal-Reflector]

The anime is over, the manga is finished. Honey and Clover has come to an end to we the fans' chargin. Unrelenting and unwise as I am, I've signed up for an RPG where I take on the role of... (I'm sure those familiar with me can guess) Shuuji. The story is set three years after the end of the series, and thinking that it might amuse some of you, I've decided post here a status report on Shuu's life, told by his own voice, three years after.

Spoiler for Only for those interested:

Young people smoke too much these days.

Of course, such a statement would sound hypocritical coming from me; I know it does. I never denied that I was a hypocrite in a lot of ways: giving advice that I don’t take myself, telling others to give up or move on when I’ve done neither. I suppose it does help me in one area though: teaching. Though life moves on despite my not doing so, I continue to excel at teaching others things I was not brave enough to realize myself. Teaching suits me.

It makes me laugh now, when I recall that, like my incoming freshmen, I was once eighteen, when the future was always the day after tomorrow and you could always start over, not giving a thought to how you might lose something you can’t regain.

There’s a big red check marked on the calendar in the middle of the month. That’s when my niece will be coming back to Tokyo. I count the days until she returns; it will have been the longest time we’ve been apart since I brought her to Hamabi more than five years ago. For leisure, I spend my time reading art editorials and history journals (contributing a few myself, when I’ve the mood). I look to the welfare of my students, present and graduated both, finding them jobs when I must and introducing clients in better times, though that has become less of a priority now, particularly in the case of Yamada, who is firmly on track working on her own and with Rika. Last I checked, Takemoto was alive and well established in his craftsman trade. Mayama of course needs no worrying about, and Morita… well, there was no point being concerned for that man; Morita would find a way to generate a profit from an NPO.

And so I turn to other things to find purpose in life and feel needed.

I’m chewing spearmint gum as I type now, having reduced my tobacco consumption down to a pack-and-half per week starting three years ago, mostly out of consideration for Hagu and the times we have to spend in the clean environs of rehabilitation. A small part of me realizes it is impossible that I shall ever be rid of the habit. Another part thinks that by doing so, I may be able to go on and change other parts of my stagnating life. I feel that other part is overly optimistic, but go along with it, and try to stick to the program by rewarding myself in creative ways, like a woman on a diet. Lately however, it has become increasingly difficult to come up with ideas; with Hagu away and my former pupils busy with their own blossoming careers, most material rewards, like special meals or movies become unrewarding. Its times like these that I realize that aside from them I have little to no acquaintances my own age that I could call friends; I usually end up smoking the pack then as a reward for not smoking too much.

When a man at the prime of his life and a steady income doesn’t know what to do with himself in his free time, he has a problem. When his parents in the countryside are starting to drop unsubtle hints to their ungrateful son about not fulfilling his duty to them by finding a nice girl and starting a family, he has a problem. When he has no life, knows it, and doesn’t do anything about it for years, he has a problem.

I look at the framed picture on my desk, of the three of us from back in the days, when there were no problems whatsoever. The grin on the Man in the Middle’s face reflects itself on my own as I grin back.

“What would you do, Harada?”

Or maybe I should ask her instead, the one still here. It’d been a while since we saw each other.

Wish me luck; hopefully I'll make a good Shuu.

[Ayumi47644]

Cal-Reflector, I read your report about Shuuji's life.

Spoiler:

I liked it, especially the part he is trying to stop smoking. I always imagined that he would try to do that because of Hagu. Although it's been three years now, it seems to me that he is still the same. I enjoyed to read it, so I wish you good luck!

Originally Posted by mycen
Indeed!! That's why I like H&C series I an II so much. Awesome storyline and character interaction .

That's right, I loved the storyline and the characters. H&C is about life and made me remember things that happened to me a long, long time ago. I have seen many anime shows, but H&C was different. And that's the point of a good anime show, isn't it?

[Lyannea]

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

Wish me luck; hopefully I'll make a good Shuu.

Just one thing : Hagu is not Shuuji's niece. She's his cousin to second degree. I have no idea how it is called in english though. :P

Rest is quite good. Though I never imagined Shuuji would try to stop smoking... It is an interesting development.

[aliensporebomb]

I suppose she would be what they call in the U.S. his "second cousin", also
known colloquially as "Kissing Cousins" since that's the closest relation you
could actually marry should the thought come to you.

That is a nice "Shuu in the Future" reflection.

Spoiler:

I always thought the man smoked like a coal burning power plant.
The guy needs to quit if only for the health of those around him.

He talks about Rika trying to kill herself - the man is a poster boy
for the self-destruct sequence. So I'm encouraged with this.

You can imagine how Umino Chica would have it if he's trying to quit,
chewing spearmint gum then he encounters someone smoking so
he starts chewing his lower lip and practically gnaws it off - it could
be quite amusing.

But yeah, what's NICE about your writing is the idea that Shuu
KNOWS he has a problem and he KNOWS he has no life and he
should go out on some dates or something - it's not like the man
is socially isolated - he has ways of getting beyond this. It's
written from the viewpoint of a man about to do something
about it. And that's good - after decades of watching and
waiting everyone else he's about to do something.

What's nice about your RPG is that there's a lot of material
to work with.

I myself have some visions of some of the characters..
note this is purely hypothetical and based only on what I
think could be possible and no real reality..

Spoiler:

-Kaoru with a wife of his own and two small kids, both of them
equally unique personalities and he's careful to pay attention
to them both and not just the exceptional one. And maybe
his wife is the one who wears the pants in the family, keeping
him on his toes and keeping him honest. Maybe she's even
involved in the business in some way.

-Yamazaki and Miwako having some kind of unusual relationship
down the road - the sort of adversarial becoming affectionate..
He's got a closet full of 73 shirts that are so obnoxious that
combined it's like looking at the sun. You need special glasses
for that. You don't want to know what he wore to their wedding.

It's hard for me to come up with ideas for the main characters
though, so I'll have to think hard about that.

[Cal-Reflector]

Spoiler for Emotional Responses to each episode as I marathon through season II:

I've started watching the Honey and Clover II anime. My reactions will probably be of little interest to people now, as I'm sure most forum members are all talked about on all there's to talk about, but, oh well; if only for the sake of comparing the manga to anime, the music, and humor.

Edit: First real highlight came with episode 3, Nomiya's confession. Nice execution by the animators. Good dramatic impact, analogus to season 1's episode 6.

Edit: Oh right, that's why I've been putting off/afraid to watch season II this whole time, episode 4, I remember now. *Goes and sits in corner of room, muttering, ala Tamaki from Ouran*

Edit 2: SHIIIIIIIIII.... *Resigned* Too... much... angst... need 30cc injection of... Morita... now....

Edit 3: Someone brought this up before; but Morita's dad's wife looks exactly like Ayu.

Edit 4: Kaoru, the tragic hero, the Count of Monte Cristo... that's who came to mind.

Edit 5: The Morita-Hagu scene = me fanboying like a girl.

Edit 6: Episode 10: In which I discover for the trainwreck that he is, God help me, I cannot help but love that man. Shuu-chan sensei!!!! UOOOHHHH!!

Edit 6B: Episode 11: A caveat to Edit 6, I'd have liked to see Morita kick SHuu's ass then. MORITAAAAAAA!!!! Nooooooooo........ Ayu, go! Give solace to the man!

Edit 7: I'd forgotten what emotion I felt when I first read the manga scans, Hagu's words, asking Shuu to give her his life, but watching it on anime made me... kinda pissed off. ちょとむかつく、ちょとだけ。　But... I changed my mind a six minutes later, after Hagu's long monologue.

Edit 8: Episode 11, So, Shuuji drops us the big bomb. Perhaps its because I've had months to agonize and digest yet, but seeing the anime, the outcome seemed surprisingly easy to stomach. In fact, the part of me wanting to see an ending bending towards Morita-Hagumi was not disappointed, perhaps even a little uplifted, by Hagu's voice at the very end.

Or maybe I'm just lying to myself and blinding myself from the truth so that Shuu's personality is not completely wrecked. *Laughs*

Edit 9: Beginning of episode 12. On second thoughts, no, it still comes across as out of the blue and awkward and difficult to accept.やパリ変、なとくできない。

Edit 10: Wait, *rewinds, checks, rewinds, checks, repeat 5 times* Did Rika and Shuuji just kiss? What? *Five minutes later in the episode* Damn, is this like, the consolation prize for Rika-Shuu fans or what? To make it up to the people who became upset with the latest developments so they don't become violent? *Chuckles*

Edit 11: Rika to Mayama, as he stops her from going to Shuu: "Let me go, what do you know about him?" Pathetic man that I am, this is probably the quote that's made me happiest in the entire two seasons, coming from Rika.

Edit 12: *Clutches Heart* Ah, Kaoru and his loyal band of subordinates. Its beautiful.

Edit 13: *Clutches Heart and pulls it out* Ah, Takemoto! Dammit man, I love you too! For all the poor bastards out there with unrealized loves! Takemoto! Your sacrifice gives our pain meaning! *Salutes with manly tears*

Conclusion:

So in the end...

Ayu: Little development in the latter half, the pivotal turning point being when she told Mayama about how to grow a spice to accompany somen with when he went to Spain. Inspected by a microscope, it may be that she's finally yielding to Nomiya.

Takemoto: Grew by leaps and bounds, no character has earned my resepect more than him. Our great narrator who finally finds for all of us the central question of the series: Whether there is a meaning to something that does not last (or a love unrealized), or does it disappear like it never existed before. Yes, there is.

Mayama: Little development in the second half, well, he was pretty on track since the end of season 1, and we see his stalker-persistency finally come to some fruitition. I still don't like him though, but that's personal.

Morita: Takemoto's opposite and rival; talented and wealthy. After the emotional drain from the Kaoru-Monte-Cristo arc, wants to escape with Hagu, but is encouraged by her instead. Unlike Takemoto, his fight for her love will continue (I think it is but a matter of time, as she loves him too), and we shall all be cheering for him.

Shuu: Taking a sabbath was not just for Hagu's sake, but for his own as well, as the years with Hagu have finally enabled him to finally leave Hamabi and its memories behind, and embark on that Journey of Personal Discovery like Takemoto, which he never had... if Harada and Rika hadn't brought him back everytime, years ago, things would have turned out very differently for Shuu.

In that regard, Shuuji and Takemoto are analogus, the difference being that one was able to go on a biking trip to Hokkaido and the other not.

In the end, Shuu will finally embark on his many-years-delayed-journey to discover just what is his purpose in life. His love (romantic, fine, whatever) for Hagu is unselfish, and it would seem that in his heart, he sees that there will come the day when Morita returns for Hagu, and for Hagu's happiness he would not mind it. I hope by that time he'd have found his TRUE purpose in life... in Rika, back where he started.

Hagu: She's a strong lady, and the character who grew the most aside from Takemoto (or just as much), the character most weak and dependent turns out in the end to the emotional support of just about everyone else, encouraging them on in life with her own struggle against pain. The choice of art over Morita is temporary, and as long as that love is there, it is outrageous to think that she cannot have both in the future.

Kaoru: A side character, I know, but I love this man. Embodying the struggle of the common man under the shadow of genius. I loved this guy ever since he kicked down Shinobu's door and charged Takemoto for the Taxi ride as a joke. *Salute*

Nomiya: Always remained a side character for me... his involvement with Ayu never seemed to draw me in, not even as much as the Ayu-Morita friendship moments. That said, when Ayu forelornely spoke of where Morita had gone, seeing his name on a sake pitcher, and calling him a liar, my Ayu-Morita shipper's heart leapt with joy.

[misakichii]

OMG! i haven't been on animesuki for the longest time on so i'm so behind and finally tonight i'm kinda trying to compensate for the time i have lost. so WOW! i'm so freakin excited. there's a second season. i did not know that. i really didn't. i was so sad when the first season ended. wow! it's a must see. yay! IKE H&C!!!

[Theowne]

Kaoru: A side character, I know, but I love this man.

Yes! Another member of the Kaoru fanclub.

the difference being that one was able to go on a biking trip to Hokkaido and the other not.

In season 1 Shuuji's sensei was talking about ( I think) how Shuuji himself had also gone on a self-realization trip, in a comedy scene. Of course this was before Harada-Rika, etc. I'll try to find the exact ep where they talked about it, obviously it must be near the end of season 1.

[Shades]

Very good ending...few live up to my expectations, and while it didn't end the way I might've thought... it still works, and I still find it right.

Part of me still feels bad about Morita... his heartfelt feelings about his dislike of how people react to his talent resounded well with me...he has his friends but somehow there's still always a wall there...

Some people say he may still go with Hagu, but I don't think so. Either way. And while I was going to ask about Takemoto's va...they list him in the credits...should've looked there first instead of thinking they'd list the normal one and not list the replacement.

[tetsuo]

Wah!!! why did it have to end? I loved it soo much! All the greatness, the great story, the great characters, the great love!!! why why did it all have to end. So yeah i guess now that its finished, i just wanted to know everyones favorite moment in either season. Mines is actually the ending scene it almost made me cry, it was just so touching and yeah all the crying made me wanna cry!

[Rion]

Originally Posted by Theowne

Yes! Another member of the Kaoru fanclub.

Oh yeah *ggg* I'm really glad there actually are people who like Kaoru (like myself). I always got the impression that people think Kaoru is "getting in the way" in the storyline and want more Ayu/Hagu/Mayama/Rika/whoever-action. I personally think that Kaoru is very important - at least for Shinobu. Shinobu actually always considered Kaoru and his family as his first priority in life - but now that it's over, he has realized that he has a life of himself, and will probably pay more attention to his own intellectual and emotional growth now. He can now live to pursue what he really likes (working with Peter Lucas and his love interest Hagu)... *____* For Morita, this is probably the best development of all...

[Zappster]

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

Morita: Takemoto's opposite and rival; talented and wealthy. After the emotional drain from the Kaoru-Monte-Cristo arc, wants to escape with Hagu, but is encouraged by her instead. Unlike Takemoto, his fight for her love will continue (I think it is but a matter of time, as she loves him too), and we shall all be cheering for him.

You can count me out of that. I won't be, but that's mainly because I dislike the way things went for him. He's a funny guy and everything but yeah, no way in hell would I be cheering for him. Mainly the Takemoto fan in me speaking.

As for your edit 10 in your spoiler it wasn't a kiss IIRC, just a hug. Might have to rewatch it again, but at the time I can't recall anyone else "seeing" the same thing either.

[Ayumi47644]

Kaoru was one of the characters that surprised me. One of my favourite episodes of H&CII was ep. 7, which was about Morita and Kaoru's childhood. I didn't pay much attention to Kaoru when he first appeared in season one, but Umino Chika surprised me with his and Morita story. It was a huge development for Kaoru, although I would like to know more about what happened to him after the end of the story. Another thing is that I couldn't hate Tatsuo for what he had done. He wasn't presented as a villain, and I don't think he was it.

About the pairs, it's funny, but I don't "love" any of them. When I saw the first episode of H&C my thoughts were: "Well, Yamada will end with Mayama, Hagu with Takemoto and Morita, well... I don't know". That is what usually happens: it's everything difficult, but, in the end, it's like that. However, I quickly understood that it wouldn't be like that. Another different point in H&C!

I admire a lot Morita and Yamada relationship. If there were a pair that I could choose it would be them.

[Cal-Reflector]

While discussing character backgrounds for the purpose of the Hachikuro RPG I'm participating, I had a sort of epiphany, which I think others here may have already thought of before: It is the extent to which the Harada-Rika-Shuu relationship parallels the Morita-Hagu-Takemoto triangle.

I never thought that H-R-S could have been a love triangle
before the person brought it up, but now that I think about it, there were already
many, many strong parallels set down by the author between the
two relationships already. For example:

Like Takemoto, Shuu was constantly made aware of his lack of talent
compared to the other two geniuses.

Shuu was aware that the other two were in a world of their own.

Shuu was the down to earth one while Harada was the one who had it all: popularity, talent, brilliance, and a larger than life attitude.

Shuu probably even left on his journeys (failed) of self-discovery for the same reasons.

Likewise, what's to say that Shuu wasn't in love in Rika, lost out to
Harada, conceded like Takemoto did, and the three continued living
together. Picturing Shuu and Rika's relationship in parallel to Takemoto and Hagu's (She loves him, but the other a little more) It seems to fit
quite well, the analogy, does it not?

If the same fate should have befallen the three, I see Takemoto doing the same things for Hagu as Shuu did for Rika.

I understand this may be a strectch of a comparison, but what do you guys think?

[aliensporebomb]

I don't know.


Re: Shuu / Rika:

Spoiler:

I see what you're talking about but my understanding of the situation was that
Rika did love Shuu but they both agreed
a relationship wasn't realistically possible
due to the overly large shadow of Harada
standing over them.

I think Shuu was simply afraid and perhaps
Rika felt she would not be honoring Harada
properly by taking up with him.

BUT, my feeling was - what better way for
Shuu to honor Harada by making sure his
wife was being properly taken care of.

And you just know Rika would take care of
him and encourage him to stop his bad
habits.

Re: Takemoto's Future:

Spoiler:

After this, I can see Takemoto being able to
let go and accept being Hagu's friend.

He's happy he confessed, he's happy for
having loved her and been her friend.

He realizes that you sometimes don't get
what you want. And it's not the end of the
world.

Since he likely won't be seeing her nearly
as often and will be with a different circle
of people I still get the idea that he's going
to end up with Shin-chan's sister or
something - it will be something he won't
be expecting and it will hit him over the
head like a frying pan or something.

Or better yet! The sister of the guy who he
was always butting heads with - the other
young guy on the construction crew! The
one who was secretly sharpening the planes
at night! That would be HILARIOUS. He had
a ton of siblings too which is why he was
kicked out of his parents house in the first
place.

I'd like to think those sandwiches were a clear
message:

"You're a dear friend and I love you like a
brother and I want you to get as much
happiness as you can out of life" with
the unstated but obvious "don't count
on a romantic kind of relationship with me."

How many romantic refusals would have such a kind gesture behind it?

That's why he was happy - she was
unexpectedly decent about it.

In fact, better than decent.

They will be the kind of friends who won't
see each other for years and take up like
no time at all have passed.

In a way, he made out better than Morita
since for him every interaction with Hagu
is like a test - he has to keep one upping
himself.

[Cal-Reflector]

Originally Posted by aliensporebomb

I don't know.


Re: Shuu / Rika:

Spoiler:

I see what you're talking about but my understanding of the situation was that
Rika did love Shuu but they both agreed
a relationship wasn't realistically possible
due to the overly large shadow of Harada
standing over them.

I think Shuu was simply afraid and perhaps
Rika felt she would not be honoring Harada
properly by taking up with him.

BUT, my feeling was - what better way for
Shuu to honor Harada by making sure his
wife was being properly taken care of.

And you just know Rika would take care of
him and encourage him to stop his bad
habits.

Re: Takemoto's Future:

Spoiler:

After this, I can see Takemoto being able to let go and accept
being Hagu's friend. He's happy he confessed, he's happy for
having loved her and been her friend. He realizes that you
sometimes don't get what you want.

Since he likely won't be seeing her nearly as often and will
be with a different circle of people I still get the idea that he's
going to end up with Shin-chan's sister or something - it will
be something he won't be expecting and it will hit him over
the head like a frying pan or something. Or better yet! The
sister of the guy who he was always butting heads with - the
other young guy on the construction crew! The one who was
secretly sharpening the planes at night! That would be
HILARIOUS.

At least, I'd like to think those sandwiches were a clear
message:

"You're a dear friend and I love you like a brother and I
want you to get as much happiness as you can" with the
unstated but obvious "don't count on a romantic kind of
relationship with me."

How many romantic refusals would have such a kind gesture
behind it?

That's why he was happy - she was unexpectedly decent
about it. In fact, better than decent. They will be the kind
of friends who won't see each other for years and take up
like no time at all have passed.

In a way, he made out better than Morita since every
interaction with Hagu is like a test - he has to keep
upping himself.

Oh of course, I agree completely with what you said. All along, I should've made clear that in spite of their parallel positions, Takemoto differs tremendously from Morita in that he found his closure and moved on; Shuu never did until many many years later, and is even now still searching for what Takemoto has already found.

[Rion]

Originally Posted by Ayumi

I admire a lot Morita and Yamada relationship. If there were a pair that I could choose it would be them.

And sometimes I wish Honey & Clover would be more of a josei and Ayu and Morita were sex friends. Seriously, this series lacks the sex.

@aliensporebomb: I love your speculations about Takemoto's future and your interpretation about him. On the other hand, I do think that there's some kind of chemistry between them, it's just that Hagu loves art and Morita more than Takemoto. (Similar to Nana... it's not like Shouji didn't love Nana, it was just that he loved Sachiko more.)