Sword Art Online - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

The issue is, why was Kirito himself not concerned about getting Sleep-PKed? You'd think that napping outside of a house or inn is something that is best done only with two people taking shifts, and avoided whenever possible, yet there he was lying under the tree like he bloody well owns the damned place.

He seems to have a lot of skills to help him survive/hunt alone. I'm sure he took that into account and made sure his skills could compensate.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Divini

Spoiler for minor spoiler for game mechanics:

It's explained in the source material for this story. Rooms that are owned by players, whether it's an inn, rental, or owned, are completely airtight when it comes to trespassing. And yes, this includes windows. Also there's no lockpicking skill.

Spoiler for LN plot material from this chapter, just in case:

Also Kirito and Asuna tested and refuted the 'attack from outside' theory (wasn't shown in anime). Kirito stabbed himself and confirmed that safe zones make you immune to even dot (damage over time) effects.

Spoiler:

Would that kind of test actually disprove the theory though? If someone with a strong enough attack did so from outside the limits wouldn't it be able to do enough damage to kill off a player? Not to mention he's either going to be stabbing himself inside of town or outside of town, even if he's straddling the safe zone the game might not recognize a self inflicted attack like that.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by GDB

He seems to have a lot of skills to help him survive/hunt alone. I'm sure he took that into account and made sure his skills could compensate.

Like is regen ability thats pretty handy I'm sure the would be pk would just get tired and quick after he figured out it was futile...

and yes I am back to posting in the episode threads since things have become civil again.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Like is regen ability thats pretty handy I'm sure the would be pk would just get tired and quick after he figured out it was futile...

and yes I am back to posting in the episode threads since things have become civil again.

I'm sure not all PKers are quite so weak...

[Kmos]

Originally Posted by Clarste

It's not about having "the option to operate another person's character", it's about "having the realism to touch someone else". The fact is, the menus work through a kind of motion control. Well, so does everything else. Because that's the only way the game can work. There is no controller, it's just a fake body being fed fake sensory information. There is literally no way for anyone to interact with anything in the world except by moving their game body around.

So either people can move other people's bodies, and therefore operate each other's controls, or they can't move each other's bodies at all. And I think everyone would agree that a VR game where you can't touch other people would be incredibly stupid and defeat the entire point of the immersion.

And really, the only problem is when people are asleep. But... in a real game (and SAO was designed to be a game), why in the world would you go to sleep in the game? Instead of just logging out and taking a nap? It just wouldn't be an issue that would ever come up in normal circumstances. Someone who's awake could easily prevent that because it's not like anyone's naturally bigger and stronger than you.

I'm just saying the game mechanic makes no sense and I haven't seen an argument that makes it acceptable. If you can operate another player's menu options it's a bad game. The problem isn't only sleep pk. Say you're in the middle of fighting, you go to your menu to grab a potion or switch equipment someone can intentionally interfere and make you select the wrong thing or you take a swing and someone re-directs it to an ally or trips you up. Same for trading. Huge griefing potentials.

I don't really get why other players are able to see another's menu either or the need to operate them with movements instead of just doing it within their mind. Might as well show a skillbar and which skill they're pressing to enemies if they're going to show players opening menus selecting things.

I don't want a drawn out discussion so I'm just going to conclude with:
If they can hide skillbars/skill activation, timers, map, anything else they can hide other parts of the user interface like menu options.
Things like menu options and controls are usually seen by individual player only and operated on their end.
Having such a bad game mechanic is only plausible because it seems like SAO is a light, survivalist genre maybe. I would strongly disagree with Kirito's assessment of how SAO is a fair game then.
If it was to be sold as a real game I don't think any dev would allow other player control of another player, then again there're a ton of bad devs and games atm.

[Divini]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Spoiler:

Would that kind of test actually disprove the theory though? If someone with a strong enough attack did so from outside the limits wouldn't it be able to do enough damage to kill off a player? Not to mention he's either going to be stabbing himself inside of town or outside of town, even if he's straddling the safe zone the game might not recognize a self inflicted attack like that.

Spoiler for the test:

He stabbed himself with a rare throwing dagger that had a DOT effect, then stepped into town. He still had the DOT effect in his debuff display, but didn't lose more hp. It confirmed that you can't take any damage in a safe area, even if it originated from the outside.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

The issue is, why was Kirito himself not concerned about getting Sleep-PKed? You'd think that napping outside of a house or inn is something that is best done only with two people taking shifts, and avoided whenever possible, yet there he was lying under the tree like he bloody well owns the damned place.

You mentioned that you read the source material - if you go back and reread that chapter closely...

Spoiler for beginning of volume 8:

...Kirito mentions that:

a) he uses his Search skill to set up an alert that will warn him if someone approaches him;
b) he only takes light naps when outside, to minimise the risk.

Asuna's Search skill isn't as high as Kirito's, and she fell soundly asleep (apparently for eight hours).

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Guppy

Spoiler for beginning of volume 8:

...Kirito mentions that:

a) he uses his Search skill to set up an alert that will warn him if someone approaches him;
b) he only takes light naps when outside, to minimise the risk.

Asuna's Search skill isn't as high as Kirito's, and she fell soundly asleep (apparently for eight hours).

Thanks God they remove this sort of thing from the anime. It makes him look even more Gary Stu than he already is (and he's already pretty high in the Gary Stu scale )

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Kmos

If it was to be sold as a real game I don't think any dev would allow other player control of another player, then again there're a ton of bad devs and games atm.

maybe they intended to fix the issue in the first patch...

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Kmos

I don't really get why other players are able to see another's menu either or the need to operate them with movements instead of just doing it within their mind. Might as well show a skillbar and which skill they're pressing to enemies if they're going to show players opening menus selecting things.

While it's possible to train people to move cursors with their mind (they do this for paralyzed people, for example), it's certainly not easy. "Do it with your mind" is absolutely not something that a game can ask you to do. And it's fundamentally a game. People buy it, plug it in, and want to play it immediately. No one wants a learning curve where you need to train for months to be able to open the menu.

Thus, it works like a game with motion controls. VR is cool and all, but ultimately it's just a fancy version of a Kinect. You move your body and stuff happens in the game. Even attacks work like that, as explained to Klein in episode 1. You don't just swing your sword around, you activate the Sword Skill by moving your arm in such-and-such way. Likewise, you open your menu by making a specific gesture and use the menu normally. To require anything more than that makes it more than a "game".

And, well, not to get overly defensive but the novel mentions that menus are only visible to the player who opens them, unless they turn on a certain setting. Showing the audience the menus all the time is just a narrative conceit. Note how sometimes they switch to "game view mode" where you can see the targeting cursors and the healthbars? Presumably it looks like that all the time, they just don't show it because it looks weird. Likewise, they don't show people operating invisible menus because that also looks weird. People could only figure out the Sleep-PK trick by memorizing exactly where the menu appears relative to the character and sort of fumbling around.

[Unknown Soldier]

I'm glad Perfectu Waifu is back. There were way too many episodes lacking in Perfectu Waifu before this one.

Originally Posted by Clarste

I'm sure not all PKers are quite so weak...

All the high-level front-line players seem to know each other quite well. Regardless of their individual play styles, guild affiliation, or personal likes or dislikes of each other, they all get together when the boss is found and work together to kill the boss to advance to the next floor. It's unlikely anybody on the front lines would be a PKer because of this. All the PKers probably are lower level than the front-liners simply because they spend time hunting and killing players and they would not be welcome at the front lines, especially in a boss fight.

Originally Posted by Clarste

Well, as Kirito said the game is fundamentally "fair", at least in how it kills you. If people could break the rules of the game, including "towns are safe", then it wouldn't be very interesting for the mad scientist, now would it?

It's a good thing this game isn't run by Blizzard. Everything Blizzard makes can be exploited to death.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Divini

Spoiler for the test:

He stabbed himself with a rare throwing dagger that had a DOT effect, then stepped into town. He still had the DOT effect in his debuff display, but didn't lose more hp. It confirmed that you can't take any damage in a safe area, even if it originated from the outside.

Spoiler:

I'll assume with this much in novel reveals that the theory is wrong, just not for these reasons. It doesn't accurately cover the theory enough. Kirito wasn't in town when the attack originated and wasn't off the ground either. Besides DOT is more of a debuff than an actual attack. A solid test, but I don't think it was thorough enough.

[Starlightz]

Originally Posted by Kmos

I'm just saying the game mechanic makes no sense and I haven't seen an argument that makes it acceptable. If you can operate another player's menu options it's a bad game. The problem isn't only sleep pk. Say you're in the middle of fighting, you go to your menu to grab a potion or switch equipment someone can intentionally interfere and make you select the wrong thing or you take a swing and someone re-directs it to an ally or trips you up. Same for trading. Huge griefing potentials.

I don't really get why other players are able to see another's menu either or the need to operate them with movements instead of just doing it within their mind. Might as well show a skillbar and which skill they're pressing to enemies if they're going to show players opening menus selecting things.

I don't want a drawn out discussion so I'm just going to conclude with:
If they can hide skillbars/skill activation, timers, map, anything else they can hide other parts of the user interface like menu options.
Things like menu options and controls are usually seen by individual player only and operated on their end.
Having such a bad game mechanic is only plausible because it seems like SAO is a light, survivalist genre maybe. I would strongly disagree with Kirito's assessment of how SAO is a fair game then.
If it was to be sold as a real game I don't think any dev would allow other player control of another player, then again there're a ton of bad devs and games atm.

As stated, a player can't touch other players' menu, so in order for the "middle of fighting" scenario of yours to happen, they would need to grab hold of the opponent's hand and fingers, or at least move the hand - which shouldn't be that easy in middle of fighting.
And if you were thinking skill bar / skill activation are hidden from other players, you were wrong. To active a skill, you need to move your body on the starting motion (Ep. 1), anyone with enough experience can realize what one's skill was if they have seen it a few times beforehand. Knowing what it was and knowing how to counter it is another story, though.

Spoiler for LN spoiler, menu visiblity:

Generally, one player can't see status or other parts of other player' interface (timers, map, etc.) without that player turning on "visible mode". This was shown in both anime and LN version (anime example would be ep1, when Kirito can't see Klein's menu, there were various LN's examples). I know this conflicts with Sacchi seeing Kirito's level in previous eps., but we don't know about the details of that - Kirito might have turned on visible mode to show her something before that, or there was some special mechanic that allows you to do so (like being in a party for example?).
Sleeping PK works because players can guess where the acceptance button will be as it will always appear at same spot so they don't need to see the menu.

(And to be realistic, even in real life MMO-RPG, other players can see and operate your menu if they are physically close enough to you =p)

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

All the high-level front-line players seem to know each other quite well. Regardless of their individual play styles, guild affiliation, or personal likes or dislikes of each other, they all get together when the boss is found and work together to kill the boss to advance to the next floor. It's unlikely anybody on the front lines would be a PKer because of this. All the PKers probably are lower level than the front-liners simply because they spend time hunting and killing players and they would not be welcome at the front lines, especially in a boss fight.

It's not a fair fight, they just need to be able to hurt him. Which... isn't really that hard unless you're much lower level. Someone only a few levels behind could probably kill a sleeping player. People seem to really really overestimate that regeneration skill. It was the insult on top of the injury, not the gamebreaking ability that let him survive. Even without it it would have taken about 6 hours to kill him with the damage they were doing.

Also, I think you're greatly overestimating the "closeness" of the front line people. Kirito's a front-liner. And he told us himself that turning orange for a few days would make no difference to him. And of course he seems to constantly take breaks from the front lines and help out lower level people. It really wouldn't be hard at all for him to secretly kill someone and then lay low for a while to turn back to green. I'm not saying Kirito himself would ever do anything like that, but we've hardly met anyone on the front lines. How can you say that none of them would ever murder someone? Even if they wouldn't kill a random person for no reason, who's to say they wouldn't act on a grudge or something? People in real life are faced with great penalties for murder, but that doesn't mean it never happens. Either it's a crime of passion or someone thinks they won't get caught. Why would that change in a VR world?

[Vocah]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

The menus are controlled by hand gestures. Manipulate a sleeping player's hands in the correct gestures and the system responds, regardless of whether they're awake or asleep. This isn't something you could do in a regular MMO because you don't have that much control of your hands, but it's possible in a VRMMO.

That is not correct. They can't open menues or such, the only exception is when they issue a duel with the player, then they can accept it with a motion of the sleeping players hand

[Clarste]

Well, essentially it's an exploit that was discovered 1.5 years into the game, that only works on sleeping players. And why the heck would anyone not trapped in the game decide to go to sleep in the middle of the street, instead of just logging out and sleeping on their bed? So it's pretty clearly the sort of bug that wouldn't have been found in beta.

[styr]

Originally Posted by Vocah

That is not correct. They can't open menues or such, the only exception is when they issue a duel with the player, then they can accept it with a motion of the sleeping players hand

You'd think that with Kayaba, who was proclaimed a genius and all, would have devised a system such that falling asleep would activate a "safe mode" for players within SAO that would automatically decline duels, trades, etc to prevent abuse or exploits.

Sleep PK is a very weird exploit already.. I can only imagine the outcry from MMO players if Sleep PK was possible in games now.

[Vocah]

Well, I find it natural that bad stuff can happen when you fall asleep whereever.
Common sense 4tw

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by styr

You'd think that with Kayaba, who was proclaimed a genius and all, would have devised a system such that falling asleep would activate a "safe mode" for players within SAO that would automatically decline duels, trades, etc to prevent abuse or exploits.

Sleep PK is a very weird exploit already.. I can only imagine the outcry from MMO players if Sleep PK was possible in games now.

Again, who the heck goes to sleep inside a game?

[Starlightz]

Originally Posted by styr

You'd think that with Kayaba, who was proclaimed a genius and all, would have devised a system such that falling asleep would activate a "safe mode" for players within SAO that would automatically decline duels, trades, etc to prevent abuse or exploits.

Sleep PK is a very weird exploit already.. I can only imagine the outcry from MMO players if Sleep PK was possible in games now.

You've never gone afk just to go back and see your character as a ghost, I see :P