Guilty Crown - General Discussion

[Flawfinder]

Originally Posted by FLCL

ugggggghhhhhhhhhhhh 4/10

Clarification, please? The episode couldn't have been that annoying that you couldn't clarify why.

Also, I am getting sick of Inori. I was hoping she would shoot Yahiro before he turned into even more of an ass, because at least she would something useful. But nooooooooooo. You let the ass live and screwed up a good chance to be useful to the plot.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by Flawnalyst

Also, I am getting sick of Inori. I was hoping she would shoot Yahiro before he turned into even more of an ass, because at least she would something useful. But nooooooooooo. You let the ass live and screwed up a good chance to be useful to the plot.

But doesn't it give Inori more character to her than just robot type or girl that follows every command from Gai. I think her decision back then when Shu beg her is right. Until now all she did was follow command or stick around and be useless or weapon. Though this time around the decision might ended up wrong in result but at least she grow in character.

[Znail]

Something really strange is that when Inori draws her gun so doesn't she aim at Sugar. It doesn't look to be accidental either as we clearly see it from her own perspective who she is aiming at. It might be sloppy writing, but it could be significant as well. Hmm, I guess it could be as simple as she planed to shoot the shears and kill him that way to confuse any investigation.

[Shinn Kamiyra]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

But doesn't it give Inori more character to her than just robot type or girl that follows every command from Gai. I think her decision back then when Shu beg her is right. Until now all she did was follow command or stick around and be useless or weapon. Though this time around the decision might ended up wrong in result but at least she grow in character.

I agree. Up until this point, one might think Inori as merely doing whatever Gai said. That she would defy an order of her own will not only shows some personal growth on her part, but also of her relationship with Shu.

Actually I believe this decision will serve Inori better in that Shu was put in danger as a result. She'll have to become a stronger person if she doesn't wish to make the same mistake in the future, something I hope to see her realizing once this current business is over and done with.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra

I agree. Up until this point, one might think Inori as merely doing whatever Gai said. That she would defy an order of her own will not only shows some personal growth on her part, but also of her relationship with Shu.

Actually I believe this decision will serve Inori better in that Shu was put in danger as a result. She'll have to become a stronger person if she doesn't wish to make the same mistake in the future, something I hope to see her realizing once this current business is over and done with.

Well, the cynic would say all she's done is transfer her doll personality to Shu, and it's not about showing free will, but viewing Shu as her new 'master' in Inori's messed up submissive role. I'll be glad to be proven wrong if Inori ends up developing beyond an Otaku's wet dream modern representation of Rei Ayanami. Super glad.

I guess how one views this character and her "empowerment" in this episode is dependent on how one perceives women in general, and/or how long one has been watching anime. I admit, I've been watching so long that it's difficult for me to not automatically fit characters to a long-standing character trope.

For now, I don't take anything she does/says too seriously, and just enjoy her for the eyecandy she provides. In that spirit, here's today's fanart from scarlet-xx of this season's pink haired godess:

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

I am very positive that Inori is some form of artificial lifeform. Her actions and expressions all lead to this. She even treats herself as an object. Her request to be able to stay by Shu's side sounds like a small child requesting it. I feel as if she was created in order to have that incredibly powerful void sword, and is probably not over 10 years old, if even less. A clone, could be a possibility as well.

Let's hope she's not a clone of Shu's mom or anything like that

[Reckoner]

Uhm... Wow?

I'll give Guilty Crown this, it manages to make my head spin more than any other show this season. I mean the tonal issues it has going for it are soooooooo mixed up.

I mean a show that tries to make you take it as seriously as this one is literally doing everything to throw my suspension of belief out the window.

Here are just a few of the things off the top of my head.

• Gai shows his face in the Undertaker video revealing himself as a terrorist yet he shows his face in broad daylight out in the middle of the city when he's talking to Shu.
• Shu is using his power of the King on various students for some comedic gag in broad daylight and they're acting like this isn't something that the public would easily see around them???
• Gai can see people's voids and tell exactly what they are, and knows their precise capabilities so well that he formulated and made some overly flashy plan in the last episode around said flimsy knowledge? This terrorist organization doesn't seem very well grounded.
• Hey lets not do anything about the guy who knows our secrets!... Because Shu said so? Again, this terrorist organization just doesn't seem very well grounded. If they always acted so loosely, how would they have been able to maintain being hidden so well? It just doesn't make sense.
• Even more ridiculously over the top evil villains are coming into the picture. In a setting like modern Japan where they're handling serious and heavy themes like foreign occupation, it just comes off really distasteful and uninteresting to use such evil looking and sounding villains.

Moving on though...

I expected this show to have better character exposition going forward, but it seems they are content just rolling along without providing all that much other showing more of how Inori is just a doormat and some pretty doll they want to ogle at in an overly sexualized manner. Really, I don't even get her character so far. She also had the oddest development at the end of this episode when she proclaimed wanting to stay with Shu forever, I mean what the heck? They barely know each other at this point and time!

Gai seems to still be stringing Shu along and he's complying for whatever reason. I'm not sure why he's forcing himself into a dangerous situation when he already stated not wanting anything to do with them anymore. Oh yes, he has the hawts for Inori, it all makes sense! That girl without any personality at all.

Despite what I said, I still enjoyed the episode in a twisted way, just not for any of the most probable intended reasons. I guess I was just amused at how over the top this plot and the characters are. 7/10.

EDIT: I'll just say it right now. This show's biggest problem right now is that it has a major identity crisis. It doesn't know what it wants to be, doesn't know how serious its setting and plot should be, and just goes back and forth in very annoying manner. Its different elements just don't mix well at all.

[justsomeguy]

Shu is an interesting character. He's timid and getting pulled around by others, but he can be badass when he doesn't think. He's also observant enough to figure out that Gai can see Voids and that Yahiro is Sugar, but too naive and trusting of somebody clearly suspicious.

As for Yahiro, I'm questioning whether he planned to betray Shu from the start or only after he was outed as Sugar. He knew Shu was with the Undertakers, but didn't set him up until afterwards.

Regarding the Voids: the assorted useless crap Shu pulls out puts a nice limit on the combat ability he has. He can't just grab a weapon from a random passerby, it has to be somebody whose Void is a weapon, limiting him to Inori and whomever Gai scouts out. Shu's ability to go head to head against a mecha when armed with Inori's sword would also imply that certain Voids may grant him buffs to his physical skills, since he could not lift the refrigerator at all.

With all the chest grabbing this episode and the useless Voids, I think Guilty Crown has established itself as action (with) comedy. I hope it shook off any expectations of being some high-class thriller drama.

[Shinn Kamiyra]

Originally Posted by creb

Well, the cynic would say all she's done is transfer her doll personality to Shu, and it's not about showing free will, but viewing Shu as her new 'master' in Inori's messed up submissive role. I'll be glad to be proven wrong if Inori ends up developing beyond an Otaku's wet dream modern representation of Rei Ayanami. Super glad.

I guess how one views this character and her "empowerment" in this episode is dependent on how one perceives women in general, and/or how long one has been watching anime. I admit, I've been watching so long that it's difficult for me to not automatically fit characters to a long-standing character trope.

For now, I don't take anything she does/says too seriously, and just enjoy her for the eyecandy she provides.

You're certainly correct in that it's still too early to say anything for certain just yet, though I'm still holding out some hope.

Something I found interesting about Inori has to do with the insight into Voids we got this episode and how they reflect a person's heart. Given what we've seen of her thus far, you would think a sword the least most suitable thing for such a submissive girl. Just like Shu, we can't help but ask why?

Like many others I'm sure, the first thing that comes to mind is an inner strength that we've yet to see come from our beautiful songstress.

One can only hope this is Crown's way of telling us to be patient while we give Inori time to grow and mature into a stronger woman, one that deserves attention beyond mere appearance.

[creb]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

As for Yahiro, I'm questioning whether he planned to betray Shu from the start or only after he was outed as Sugar. He knew Shu was with the Undertakers, but didn't set him up until afterwards.

You're not being devious enough. The real question is if it was all manipulated by Gai to force Shu into using his Void Genome power again, to slowly manipulate and goad the poor boy into becoming something he has said he doesn't want to be.

For all we know, Yahiro is just doing what Gai told him to do! ;p

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by creb

You're not being devious enough. The real question is if it was all manipulated by Gai to force Shu into using his Void Genome power again, to slowly manipulate and goad the poor boy into becoming something he has said he doesn't want to be.

For all we know, Yahiro is just doing what Gai told him to do! ;p

I did consider that, though it's more risky. After all, Shu is so timid that Gai can already manipulate him, with Inori's seductiveness to help. Sending Shu into the hands of the enemy may draw out said enemy, but also put his possibly greatest weapon at risk.

Of course, from what we've seen of Gai he just might be Machiavellian enough to do just that.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Argh. Even this episode managed to annoy me. Leaving aside any plot issues since it wasn't anything amazing from episode 1 and I was willing to let it pan out before criticising, there were other elements that bothered me from this episode:

Characters. Not only do we have Shu as a questionable character (being "beta", whiny) which I was willing to be patient since a lot of "emo shonen-type" leads tend to take a while to develop, we now have Inori as a questionable character. She's completely dependent and a total doormat. Any "style" she had from the opening eps from shot out the window in this episode. Thanks Inori! You made me look dumb by half-fagging about you in the past.

Secondly the fan-service. Unlike the majority of the first two episodes, where it was actually tasteful and had purpose... this was not the case in this case. Shu walking in on Inori changing and Funnel being "angry". Facepalm Number 1. Shu taking out voids from various classmates of his but then grabs the breasts of his class rep. Facepalm Number 2.

I'll let this episode slide and consider it one of those obligatory "school comedy" filler eps, although technically it wasn't filler since the plot actually moved. Not the best plot development or the best way to handle the whole issue with Yahiro, but that wasn't the major issue for me. Definitely the weakest ep of the three so far. I'll give it 6/10.

[Team Rocket Elite]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

Secondly the fan-service. Unlike the majority of the first two episodes, where it was actually tasteful and had purpose... this was not the case in this case. Shu walking in on Inori changing and Funnel being "angry". Facepalm Number 1.

Isn't that pretty close to what he did when he met Inori in episode 1? And she was wearing less in episode 1. >_>

[Flawfinder]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

But doesn't it give Inori more character to her than just robot type or girl that follows every command from Gai. I think her decision back then when Shu beg her is right. Until now all she did was follow command or stick around and be useless or weapon. Though this time around the decision might ended up wrong in result but at least she grow in character.

In theory, yes. The problem is that I find Inori so boring and the situation so unsubtle and tired that the "character growth" moment came off as contrived. Couldn't you have found a better way to have her character grow? On top of that, Inori is so submissive to everybody that it just seemed to me like she was following Shu's orders rather than thinking for herself. And as much as I find Gai dull, he at least is the more credible chain of command to follow. The only thing that can save Inori for me at this point is to explain why her behavior is what it is, and why she is so clingy to Shu.

Now, if it was Revy from Black Lagoon in the same situation with Rock, that would have been more interesting. When Inori does it, it's not very convincing.

While I'm at it, another thing that works in theory, but not in the show, is the best friend betraying Shu after reconciling with him. It's a good idea, but their friendship barely had any development, we barely saw them together, and the entire make-up speech was given the "pretentious narrating" treatment. I am sick of that narrating cliche. So when he betrays Shu, I just became annoyed.

Now with that said, a lot of people seem to like the episode. I can't see why, other than maybe two or three small things, or the fact that a bunch of people are putting this anime in the "so bad it's good category" (I'd do the same thing if the series was a little more campy). But hopefully, we won't have a hate-filled discussion like last episode.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

So now what?

I mean this is the 3rd episode so he can no longer go back to school unless Gai somehow turns the table around. Perhaps it's a "I told you so" lesson for him.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Team Rocket Elite

Isn't that pretty close to what he did when he met Inori in episode 1? And she was wearing less in episode 1. >_>

I thought Funnel was "angry" in that scenario because they were found hiding by Shu. The only piece of fanservice I remember giving me in the first 2 eps a eyebrow was in episode 2 - the air duct scene.

[Myname]

Damn that Yahiro. Shu should've did to Yahiro, what he did to Shouta.

[Archon_Wing]

What the fuck? Oh great, there's ecchi moments that I wouldn't even tolerate in an ecchi anime. It's thrown in so haphazardly it lacks any kind of sexiness or humor whatsoever and comes across as blatantly sexist in parts. Anyhow, Shu pulls shit out of people and lands more unfunny jokes and shit. Oh and Inori's corny lines at the end that would put George Lucas to shame for romance writing.

Also, Shu going emo at being dissed by his classmate was kinda funny, god, was he even more annoying at this episode.

Anyhow, spending half the episode on nothing and the other half on Shu pulling out his friend's dildo out of his chest doesn't really come across as compelling to me. Shu has no balls, and Inori is lacking up there. Again, it's a bit too early to blame them for being underdeveloped, but they really should have tried a bit harder to make people less obnoxious.

I would complain about the plot, but I forgot, even though I was watching. I'm certain I was just staring at the timer waiting for it to end. And lol@ the bad guys.

3/10. Hopefully, this is just an exception to the rule.

[winhlp32]

As low-brow entertainment, I think this is pretty good stuff. Its still very pretty, and I enjoyed most of it, and had a good laugh at some of the terribad directorial decisions that was made this episode.

- I'm kind of happy this series revealed its true colors that its actually a comedy. It makes all the pseudo-science stuff much easier to stomach.

- Hiroyuki Sawano's "fan-service" music is annoying. Other pieces are passable.

- As for the fan-service itself, it really isn't that bad. Maken-Ki is bad.

- I haven't seen much of Clown-guy, but he's hilarious already in the few minutes he's had. Likes to hang people upside down in his own office over a nice sunset and city skyline. His face looks like the guy on the horror movie DVD cover, and he decorates his cellphone with accessories.

- Yahiro did such a cheap shot in that final scene.

- I found the ED where Shu was apologizing to the class president cute.

- I feel like Shu's mother has a death flag set up...

- Gai has bad taste in fashion sense. Way too bombastic.

- I want that glassy refrigerator. It'd look good in my kitchen.

[Triple_R]

I personally thought that Episode 3 was an excellent episode.

Here are some reasons why:

1) Trope justified, but then subverted. Often in anime we see the mysterious transfer student gushed over excessively. Here, it happens, but for a justifiable reason: She's an idol singer/minor celebrity. But then, this trope is subverted by Sugar stepping in to get everybody to cool down and treat each other normally. The great irony is that the guy that takes the refreshingly common sense approach to this situation is also one of the antagonists of the episode.

2) The topic of occupying forces using harsh interrogation to deal with problematic elements is a good and topical one to explore. There's a vaguely Orwellian feel to much of the episode.

3) The effects and nature of Void use is showcased nicely, and humorously. It was neat to see how void use won't always create something terribly useful, that it all depends on the psyche of the person that it's used on.

4) The visuals are, of course, still quite nice. Some of the best artwork I've ever seen in anime. In particular, I liked the way interior decor, and overall direction, was handled. The classroom in this episode felt like a real classroom to me, reminding me of my own when I was in high school, in fact.

5) The BGM was superb. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

6) I liked how Shu's character was further explored and developed in this episode.

7) The fanservice was quite mild, in my view.

8) The plot twist at the end was executed marvelously.


9/10 for Episode 3.


Now to respond to some critical comments...

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Uhm... Wow?

I'll give Guilty Crown this, it manages to make my head spin more than any other show this season. I mean the tonal issues it has going for it are soooooooo mixed up.

I don't see any tonal issues at all.

I mean a show that tries to make you take it as seriously as this one is literally doing everything to throw my suspension of belief out the window.

No, I don't think it is.

Here are just a few of the things off the top of my head.

Gai shows his face in the Undertaker video revealing himself as a terrorist yet he shows his face in broad daylight out in the middle of the city when he's talking to Shu.

It was specifically stated that a security check was done on Shu and Inori to see if anybody was following them. This suggests that Gai had operatives in place around the area in order to cover him, and get him to safety if necessary.

Shu is using his power of the King on various students for some comedic gag in broad daylight and they're acting like this isn't something that the public would easily see around them???

Just because something is done in broad daylight doesn't mean there are loads of people around to see it.

Gai can see people's voids and tell exactly what they are, and knows their precise capabilities so well that he formulated and made some overly flashy plan in the last episode around said flimsy knowledge?

The plan wasn't overly flashy given that it was quite justified based on what Gai revealed, and it worked perfectly well. I don't see any basis for calling it "flimsy knowledge". Gai has a legitimate special ability. I see no problem with it.

[*]Hey lets not do anything about the guy who knows our secrets!... Because Shu said so?

Keeping Shu happy is likely a big goal of Undertaker, given his Void ability. They likely want to slowly persuade him to join them, and so they may have taken a calculated risk to put faith in him in the hopes that it would make him feel more comfortable with the idea of eventually joining them.

[*]Even more ridiculously over the top evil villains are coming into the picture.

This argument is grossly overstated, imo. He's a colorful interrogator. Big deal. It's not "ridiculously over the top" at all. How is it any more "over the top" than what happened in the real world in Abu Grhaib in Iraq? So it's not "distasteful" at all, imo. And it does not in any way contradict serious and heavy themes. In fact, occupying forces using morally questionable interrogation means is in itself a serious and heavy topic.

Moving on though...

I expected this show to have better character exposition going forward,

The character exposition in Episode 3 was fine. We learned a lot about Shu, "Sugar", and a bit more about Inori. Shu's character is slowly rounding into shape. In this episode we see that he has some qualms with killing potential enemies, even when that's clearly the most pragmatic course of action. I suspect that such differences in moral outlook between Shu and Gai will play out more forcefully and compellingly in future episodes.

but it seems they are content just rolling along without providing all that much other showing more of how Inori is just a doormat and some pretty doll they want to ogle at in an overly sexualized manner.

Inori is likely literally a doll. I think that this is what was foreshadowed during the conversation in the gym.

I very much doubt that Inori is fully human. She's probably an artificial lifeform, to some degree at least. If that is the case, I see no problem with her character.

Really, I don't even get her character so far. She also had the oddest development at the end of this episode when she proclaimed wanting to stay with Shu forever, I mean what the heck? They barely know each other at this point and time!

She was likely impressed by Shu's decision to spare "Sugar". I think that moved her at some level (which, again, becomes even more likely if she's an artificial lifeform of some sort who's sole experience with other human beings is as a tool of a terrorist organization).

Gai seems to still be stringing Shu along and he's complying for whatever reason. I'm not sure why he's forcing himself into a dangerous situation when he already stated not wanting anything to do with them anymore. Oh yes, he has the hawts for Inori, it all makes sense! That girl without any personality at all.

He's already in a dangerous situation due to "Sugar" being at his school. That's probably at least part of the reason why he 'complied'. Having Inori's assistance in dealing with "Sugar" was no doubt helpful to him.

I'll just say it right now. This show's biggest problem right now is that it has a major identity crisis. It doesn't know what it wants to be, doesn't know how serious its setting and plot should be, and just goes back and forth in very annoying manner. Its different elements just don't mix well at all.

I totally disagree.