Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[Gilgamesh00]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

and so....how does the reused frames become the issue then?

Older animes had more reused frames than new ones, its fact, But GSD relatively new show(2004) is like a old show in this aspect.

[NoOneKnowS]

Wing is crap, GSD is un/fortunately better than it. GSD isn't a failure(marketing wise) but it is(story wise). End of story.

[hell88]

Originally Posted by NoOneKnowS

Wing is crap, GSD is un/fortunately better than it. GSD isn't a failure(marketing wise) but it is(story wise). End of story.

I liked Wing a lot, a lot more than I liked GSD. Think about it, in GSD their are too many crybabies and too much complaining, in Wing its get to the point and finish the mission.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Gilgamesh00

Older animes had more reused frames than new ones, its fact, But GSD relatively new show(2004) is like a old show in this aspect.

Reused frames have absolutely zero things to do with age and everything to do with time and budget. Watch any OVA from the 80's and 90's... Or movie. Find me a single reused frame from Char's Counterattack, for example.

While it is true that older TV anime series tend to have more recycled footage, that's only because they tend to spend less on animation back then, and use less people. But GSD should really be considered a special case, considering it uses more recycled footage than Zeta Gundam.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by hell88

I liked Wing a lot, a lot more than I liked GSD. Think about it, in GSD their are too many crybabies and too much complaining, in Wing its get to the point and finish the mission.

I actually liked that about Seed. Unlike most Gundam series where the main character decides that death is inevitable and becomes a stone cold killer Kira decided that even enemies had friends and family to go back to and he would not take their lives if he could help it. It made Seed unique that Kira and co viewed their enemies as misguided rather than bastards that deserved to die. It might not be badass or cool, but regardless of what some thing, that isn't all there is to anime or life.

Yet another reason why I find it hard to believe Fukuda really meant for Kira and co to be bad and Shinn to be good since everything Shinn's side does spits right in the face of everything they'd established to be good in the first series with the whole "Everyone who is against us is bad and must be elminated." Shinn especially since he seemed to view any enemy pilot he faced as some evil villian that must be destroyed. That's one of the reasons he freaked so badly against Athrun as for the first time in the series he had to give the pilot he was battling a face.

[yezhanquan]

Giving the enemy a human face. In Seed, this was well-done. As for Destiny, it is there, but wasn't enough to cover the other flaws during execution.

[Aquaman OS]

How would one go about contacting Fukuda? Though my Japanese is poor is workable and I have a teacher to make corrections. There are really some questions about Destiny particularly about the Lacus assasination team that I think he could clear up and make things more understandable.

Or is this impossible?

[kakakka]

I thought people already send some letters/e-mails regarding the matter?

[Aquaman OS]

If they did they never talked about their responses, and I need answers!

[Gilgamesh00]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

I actually liked that about Seed. Unlike most Gundam series where the main character decides that death is inevitable and becomes a stone cold killer Kira decided that even enemies had friends and family to go back to and he would not take their lives if he could help it. It made Seed unique that Kira and co viewed their enemies as misguided rather than bastards that deserved to die. It might not be badass or cool, but regardless of what some thing, that isn't all there is to anime or life.

This is a problem of GSD, if you are in war you can not be merciful, because if a enemy have family you have too, and no one can save all people(Except Jesus aka Kira) Well...at start i liked of kira fairy tale idea but after so many times erasing entire armies(and not killing anyone) it became very annoying, moreover, inteligence level of armies in GSD is 0, they never heard about retreat? come on! GSD have one of more stupid tatics of Gundam show on same level of Earth's Militia company in Turn-A, and all Kira idea not is new, Loran, main character of Turn -A was very stupid ingenuous also.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Yet another reason why I find it hard to believe Fukuda really meant for Kira and co to be bad and Shinn to be good since everything Shinn's side does spits right in the face of everything they'd established to be good in the first series with the whole "Everyone who is against us is bad and must be elminated." Shinn especially since he seemed to view any enemy pilot he faced as some evil villian that must be destroyed. That's one of the reasons he freaked so badly against Athrun as for the first time in the series he had to give the pilot he was battling a face.

The simple answer is that Kira and company were never meant to be bad, and that the point of Shinn's character was to show how someone with the best of intentions can end up acting against his professed principles. In a way, the show was trying to refute the validity of dogmatic "us versus them" philosophies and simplistic answers to complex problems. I happen to like those kinds of themes, so I'm rather more forgiving of Destiny's faults.

Originally Posted by Gilgamesh00

This is a problem of GSD, if you are in war you can not be merciful, because if a enemy have family you have too, and no one can save all people(Except Jesus aka Kira)

Which is something that the characters fully acknowledge. However, that doesn't mean that they can't try to alleviate the problems. Moreover, it's overly simplistic to say absolutes like "in war, you can not be merciful" - there are times and conditions where mercy is more beneficial than not.

Originally Posted by Gilgamesh00

Well...at start i liked of kira fairy tale idea but after so many times erasing entire armies(and not killing anyone) it became very annoying, moreover, inteligence level of armies in GSD is 0, they never heard about retreat? come on! GSD have one of more stupid tatics of Gundam show on same level of Earth's Militia company in Turn-A, and all Kira idea not is new, Loran, main character of Turn -A was very stupid ingenuous also.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Destiny forces do retreat from time to time, and in general, the tactics portrayed in the show are about as good as found in any Gundam show. If you want to talk about stupid tactics, there are mountains of worse examples.

[-Sho-]

For me GS > GW > GSD if we talk just about this 3 Animes .

[Aquaman OS]

Well poor tactics are really the fault of the staff and not Kira. Suffice to say Morosawa doesn't seem to know how to write battles besides "Ace pilot demolishes all unimportant grunts with no trouble at all" "Ace pilots circle each other and look cool and nobody really causes any lasting damage" and "Ace pilot beats another by destroying him flashily" Unlike other Gundam series where battle damage is occasionally taken and hits can pile on most Seed MSs are spotless until right before destruction presumably so they don't look uncool.

This goes for the assasination team as well. While people claim that because they were beaten so badly by Andy and Murrue they couldn't possibly be coordinators, its more likely the fact that "Nameless faceless characters are incompetent and useless in the face of established named character, in all situations" is one of the first rules of C.E. is why they lost so badly. Also their poor tactics that involve runnning in and making alot of noise and shooting everywhere is supposedly evidence that they aren't a special ops team but just a bunch of hired idiots, but its really more likely that Morosawa and the staff simply don't know how a special ops team is supposed to act.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Well poor tactics are really the fault of the staff and not Kira. Suffice to say Morosawa doesn't seem to know how to write battles besides "Ace pilot demolishes all unimportant grunts with no trouble at all" "Ace pilots circle each other and look cool and nobody really causes any lasting damage" and "Ace pilot beats another by destroying him flashily" Unlike other Gundam series where battle damage is occasionally taken and hits can pile on most Seed MSs are spotless until right before destruction presumably so they don't look uncool.

That's more combat choreography than it is tactics per se. I don't think that anyone would claim that Seed/Destiny combat choreography is very good.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

This goes for the assasination team as well. While people claim that because they were beaten so badly by Andy and Murrue they couldn't possibly be coordinators, its more likely the fact that "Nameless faceless characters are incompetent and useless in the face of established named character, in all situations" is one of the first rules of C.E. is why they lost so badly.

While you're quite correct for many cases in Seed/Destiny, there's plenty of reasons why the assassination was completely botched. They went in with totally inappropriate intelligence, they went up against defenders who knew what they were doing, and they didn't really have any way of dealing with the house's most formidable defense mechanisms (the security door). That's a ripe recipe for failure, and they were lucky to get as close as they did.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Also their poor tactics that involve runnning in and making alot of noise and shooting everywhere is supposedly evidence that they aren't a special ops team but just a bunch of hired idiots, but its really more likely that Morosawa and the staff simply don't know how a special ops team is supposed to act.

Not really. The idea that a special ops team is going to be free from making stupid errors is laughable. Operation Eagle Claw is a good example of just how badly they can screw up.

[Aquaman OS]

Heh, tell that to the Durandal supporters 4tran. I was just coming up with a way to retort the top Durandal supporter arguement of "The assassins couldn't have been sent by Zaft because they would have sent Coordinators, and those guys couldn't have been Coordinators, because a Natural woman, and a Coordinator cripple were able to hold them back."

I think we're on the same page here 4tran and I have to say its seriously warming my heart and restoring my confidence in humanity that I've finally run into someone that agrees with me. I just had yet another arguement with a new person on a youtube clip and he keeps disreguarding everything I say and refuses to give me the time of day til I produce word from Fukuda himself backing my suspicions, and when I tried to smile and conceed that he had good points and we'd have to agree to disagree he snubbed me.

Why can't everyone be open minded?

[wingdarkness]

^Yeah tell that to me since I’m certainly a Dullindal supporter who would pick his side any day of the week over the side of omnipotence (Kira-Lacus side)…However I believe it is showed in the manga (Certainly not the anime) that Dullindal did indeed have ZAFT Loyalist behind “Break The World” and behind trying to kill Lacus…As for a half-dead scar-face guy, Murrue, and some kids besting Zaft’s hit-squad I’ll throw that in the Kiracus omnipotence file…

Because the anime itself is so mired with execution problems, from script, to dialogue, to battle choreography (Like you said earlier “tactics”—I know exactly what you mean with this correct wording), to pace, to etc., it’s hard to get a person to change their case when the anime doesn’t provide everything that is needed to do so…So while it’s decently clear that Dully is behind Lacus’ assassination attempt, there’s also enough lacking evidence for someone to not 100% accept that conclusion…

I support Dullindal and I’d like to think I’m extremely open-minded…I just don’t see how anyone can positively tout things that the anime itself never handled well in an explanatory fashion…I think some people would rather grab handfuls of Lacus-dust, put it in a jar and call in fireflies before they admit how non-existent certain plot-points and moral dynamics were in this show…GSD failed in it’s deeper message (and even smaller ones like "Who tried to kill Lacus"?) because it failed in it's basic execution of a show…

[monster]

Whoever actually sent those assassins didn't really matter in the end. The fact that they were using relatively new ZAFT mobile suits and someone is posing as Lacus was enough for Lacus to not trust the chairman. But it's not like they're outright saying it was him. Other things came up and that whole assasination attempt became just a catalyst to get Lacus more actively involved with the outside world.

[Triple_R]

Gundam Seed Destiny had two main problems...

1) The main protagonist of the first half of the anime shifts into the main (combat) antagonist for the second half of the anime. Shinn didn't just get put into a second billing position - he made (from the plot's perspective) a moral alignment shift from main protagonist to very important antagonist. This is a shift that I've never seen done before to the extent that Destiny did it - and, ultimately, the shift was just too jarring for many people I think - it certainly was for me.


2) The failed to sell Dullindal as the great horrible villain that had to be stopped no matter what. I get what GSD was trying to do - they were trying to make Dullindal and his Destiny Plan seem like Orwell's Big Brother. GSD simply failed to make Dullindal and his Destiny Plan seem like anywhere near that dire or menacing, largely since the Destiny Plan wasn't fleshed out much, and when it was fleshed out, Dullindal presented it like it was some sort of cheerful cartoony communism only with genetic manipulation thrown in (genetic manipulation not much unlike what the coordinators had already been doing for ages now).

Kira and Lacus' outrage over the Destiny Plan struck me as a bit odd, frankly - I mean, we're talking about coordinators here; we're talking about a huge group of humans that have already signed on to the idea of wide-scale human genetic manipulation for certain desired results. The coordinators have been meticulously mapping much of their destiny for quite some time now. Dullindal's plan, really, is merely a logical progression off of what the coordinators were already doing... and Kira and Lacus are coordinators. If Kira and Lacus were naturals, the opposition to Dullindal's plan would have felt a bit more natural (pardon the awful pun ) to me.

Again, I get the ethical concerns with wide-scale genetic manipulation of huge human populations - it's one of the greater ethical dilemmas that the original Gundam Seed presented well - but since you have the coordinators already doing a lot of gene manipulation to begin with, it's not like the ethical concerns of Dullindal's plan weren't already there to begin with. Basically, what makes Dullindal any worse than your typical ZAFT leader? Heck, Dullindal comes off as a Saint compared to Athrun's father.

Having your future career/job choices made for you before you're even born is a bit of an abridging of free will - but no more so than having your very genes artificially manipulated before birth is.

I honestly felt badly for Dullindal in the end - I even felt a little bit badly for Shinn, as Dullindal was practically Shinn's hero near the end.

So... either they made a mistake in trying to make Dullindal/Shinn the main antagonists in the end, or they simply didn't do a good enough job of making them seem actually villainous.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by RRR

Again, I get the ethical concerns with wide-scale genetic manipulation of huge human populations - it's one of the greater ethical dilemmas that the original Gundam Seed presented well - but since you have the coordinators already doing a lot of gene manipulation to begin with, it's not like the ethical concerns of Dullindal's plan weren't already there to begin with. Basically, what makes Dullindal any worse than your typical ZAFT leader? Heck, Dullindal comes off as a Saint compared to Athrun's father.

Coordinators performing gene manipulation?
Wasn't that the Naturals?

Having your future career/job choices made for you before you're even born is a bit of an abridging of free will - but no more so than having your very genes artificially manipulated before birth is.

It is not a bit. It is an abridging of free will.
So if both of them are an abridging of free will, and one they can actually stop because obviously, they don't want it to happen - what's wrong with fighting one that eliminates all who oppose him?

So... either they made a mistake in trying to make Dullindal/Shinn the main antagonists in the end, or they simply didn't do a good enough job of making them seem actually villainous.

You seem to misinterpret Destiny.
In Destiny, there aren't any real antagonists - there are just people who fight for what they believe in. But there certainly are elements that flushes out Durandal's trait of being a villain - sending soldiers to kill Athrun once Athrun doubts him, Lacus' assassination attempt and perhaps, being associated with Rau.

Before any one of you jump on me about the point: being associated with Rau; I would like to remind you that Rau is the antagonist for SEED. Being associated with a former villain, more or less gives the audience an impression that you're/will be the villain in Destiny. So while according to you, Durandal may not seem villainous, he is presented to be possible of having the quality of being the villain in Destiny.

Hell.. who doesn't know Durandal is a sly fox from the very first episode? >.>

As for Shinn... he isn't a villain.
He's just an emotional puppet that is easy to manipulate. I would call him foolish, but never villainous.

If you want to label main antagonists in Destiny, I would say it's Durandal and Rey. But then again, all of them are just fighting for their beliefs.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Neku

Coordinators performing gene manipulation?
Wasn't that the Naturals?



It is not a bit. It is an abridging of free will.
So if both of them are an abridging of free will, and one they can actually stop because obviously, they don't want it to happen - what's wrong with fighting one that eliminates all who oppose him?



You seem to misinterpret Destiny.
In Destiny, there aren't any real antagonists -

It was painfully predictable, for several episodes before the conclusion, that Dullindal would be going down and going down hard at the hands of Kira and Lacus. That predictability makes Dullindal the classic antagonist - i.e. destined to lose.

Kira and Lacus were also presented in an uniformly positive light - which came across to me as a very heavy "*hint,hint, nudge,nudge* You're supposed to hate and root against Dullindal". Ok, fine... now give me a reason to hate him and root against him since you're so intent on making me feel that way. Dullindal giving a cherry cartoony presentation of the Destiny Plan, and subtle unsubstantiated hints that he may have tried to assassinate Lacus, is supposed to make me hate him?

...
there are just people who fight for what they believe in. But there certainly are elements that flushes out Durandal's trait of being a villain - sending soldiers to kill Athrun once Athrun doubts him, Lacus' assassination attempt and perhaps, being associated with Rau.

Before any one of you jump on me about the point: being associated with Rau; I would like to remind you that Rau is the antagonist for SEED. Being associated with a former villain, more or less gives the audience an impression that you're/will be the villain in Destiny. So while according to you, Durandal may not seem villainous, he is presented to be possible of having the quality of being the villain in Destiny.

Hell.. who doesn't know Durandal is a sly fox from the very first episode? >.>

As for Shinn... he isn't a villain.
He's just an emotional puppet that is easy to manipulate. I would call him foolish, but never villainous.

If you want to label main antagonists in Destiny, I would say it's Durandal and Rey. But then again, all of them are just fighting for their beliefs.

Your point on Rau is genuinely a good one. That is a questionable association for Dullindal, I will admit.