Aquarion EVOL - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[NoemiChan]

Wow this episode sum up the previous series... Its so clear to me.

Now that Shrades gone and Zessica controlled by Mykage... who will fight along side Amata with Aquarion. Will Andy and Cayenne help him or Mixy?!

Well, it'll be a three X three match against Kagura, Mikono and Zessica!

Solar Aquarion versus Aquarion Evol!!!

Go! Amata-kun, its time to show who's Daddy!!!

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Solar Aquarion versus Aquarion Evol!!!

Wasn't Shrade's Vector destroyed, though? They'd need to get another Vector and two pilots from Vega somehow to be able to form Evol. I suppose it's going to happen, simply because it would be really lame if we didn't get an Aquarion showdown.

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Go! Amata-kun, its time to show who's Daddy!!!

Poor Amata, I think he'd be happy with not getting his ass kicked or upstaged for once... :/

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Haak

Well at least we now know why Okada said Mikono was a "bad girl". Apparently Mikono likes it "Doggy-style"...

Lmao...


Yeh, this series ever since Mix's capture went full retard-mode. It's no longer a guilty pleasure or so bad its good... it's just so bad it's painful now. Absolutely nothing makes sense anymore. Will be watching AKB0048 until it stops humoring me (which it is inevitably going to happen), since it's by the same crack production staff - I'm looking at you Kawamori and Okada.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Wasn't Shrade's Vector destroyed, though? They'd need to get another Vector and two pilots from Vega somehow to be able to form Evol. I suppose it's going to happen, simply because it would be really lame if we didn't get an Aquarion showdown.

Oh, I missed that!!! Damn... Now he still need a vector then. The past versus the present.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Poor Amata, I think he'd be happy with not getting his ass kicked or upstaged for once... :/

Who won't be... I still hope Amata will do well end the end and have Mikono...

[miketyson]

I get that this is mostly in fact a retcon, but I still have to appreciate its meta-ness: within the show proper, no one of importance -- aside from, perhaps, Fudo and Rena, and *possibly* Mykage -- actually knew the true story of the events from 24000 years ago; even Kagura, whose ideas come from the movie, isn't actually *that* much worse-informed than the rest of them, really. On the other hand, the audience is now also in the same boat: not even the audience actually knew the true story...and in the same way the characters' talking of hate now seems hubristic, so too does all our speculating and conjecturing (), because we were bold enough to assume we knew the facts.

I'll reserve judgment on the full impact of the twist until after everything's done, but even at this early stage I can't help but admire its meta-ness, and the way it does to the audience what it does to the in-show characters.

[Ypocaramel]

I haven't liked the last few episodes as much as 1-14, but I'll see it through to the end

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by miketyson

I get that this is mostly in fact a retcon, but I still have to appreciate its meta-ness: within the show proper, no one of importance -- aside from, perhaps, Fudo and Rena, and *possibly* Mykage -- actually knew the true story of the events from 24000 years ago;

The problem is that apparently nobody knew the true story of the events from 12000 ys ago. I mean, the idea that Touma made such a mistake is ridiculous in itself, especially since Mykage apparently had no problems recognizing little Amata for who he was (never mind that unlike Apollo, Silvia and the rest, Touma didn't have to rely on other people's accounts of the story, he actually was there in person), that Celiane/Silvia never realized that the guy she loved wasn't the reincarnation of Apollonius but his dog is equally ridiculous in a different way (I mean, seriously?), and so on... really, in a way this "revelation" pretty much invalidates the plot of the first series. Epic romance of two star-crossed lovers spanning 12000 years! ...except not. Twisted love, pain and revenge nurtured for 12000 years! ...targeted at the wrong person. etc. (Again, there's some real comedy gold in this, but unfortunately it's not being played for laughs. ) And the way the dog is shoehorned into the whole thing is some really bad writing.

(This dog reveal would've been fine if they hadn't dragged Genesis into it, but as it is... This is why you don't mess with closed canons, damn it.)

[mayumi]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Actually they didn't care anymore of the past lives. Apollo and Silvia fell in love on their own.

Even Silvia said to Otoha she isn't Celiane anymore but Silvia descendant of Apollonius.

I think this is where the problem starts. It looks like Mikono is not reincarnation of Silvia but is reincarnation of complete Celiane. From her dark personality to her calling herself useless is all Celiane did.

Silvia's characteristics are gone. Mikono is neither warrior or a tsundere tomboy. She is just Mikono. She remembers some parts of Silvia's memories just like how Silvia remembered some parts of Celiane's memories but she is not really Silvia other than the scent.

The sad part is Silvia loved Apollo for whoever he was. She ended up not caring in the end. If you take a look back at genesis ep the last one, you can see Celiane's soul trying to reach out to Apollonius in the aquarion.

I do wonder if Mikono will be able to love the complete Amagura, cause he is really not Apollonius unless there is some more reveals to be done.
Mikono falling in love with Amata is almost like Celiane falling in love with the winged angel Apollonius.

I just hope Silvia had kids so didn't waste her life to be trolled in nex life when she became Celiane again.

[miketyson]

kuromitsu: I'm sure if I'd seen and at least liked the original I'd feel more like you do.

As-is, I just like "You kept talking so much about fate and fighting fate but now you realize you didn't even know what you were talking about" much, much more than I like the previous way the topic of fate had been handled. (FWIW I never liked and never bought into the "fighting fate" paraphrase, and am glad to see it's not that relevant really).

[kuromitsu]

Actually, it still might be relevant, depending on how they're planning to resolve this situation. (Then again, they've written themselves into a corner with Kagura and Zessica, so...)

As mayumi said above, both Silvia and Apollo ended up disconnecting themselves from their previous lives (despite Silvia spending most of the last episodes speaking both as Celiane and as Silvia). Mikono is not the reincarnation of Silvia, she's the reincarnation of Celiane-who-reincarnated-once-as-Silvia. However regardless of who Silvia and Apollo were the reincarnations of, they were still in love as themselves, and the current reincarnation of Apollo (minus wings that Apollo never had, but anyway) is treating that as destiny (otherwise it wouldn't make sense that Kagura is still calling her Sylphie, the Silvia from the movie). This is why I said that the dog stuff wouldn't really matter in the long run, because it wouldn't change the status quo. Separated, Kagura is still the reincarnation of Apollo whom Celiane-who-reincarnated-once-as-Silvia loved, and Amata is basically a pair of wings from the dog with some hazy stuff lurking in his unconscious. (Somehow.)

[miketyson]

The only way the dog stuff changes the current status quo is confirming in-show what we already guessed -- Amata and Kagura are both Apollo's reincarnation -- and giving Zessica another punch to the gut.

Bigger picture though it really does change the themes and interpretations behind that status quo -- if it didn't do that people wouldn't be upset about what it did to Genesis, no? -- and in a way that more or less completely undermines most of the fate-centric discussion we've had so far.

To expand a bit: I doubt the movie thing is even going to turn out to be a negative, now. If there wasn't anything wrong with Silvia and Apollo falling in love due to some misconceptions, it seems unlikely that the show will turn around and say it'd be wrong for Kagura and Mikono to do the same...it's the present-day feelings, etc., that matter, not necessarily how you got there.

[mayumi]

I wonder why they never mentioned that Silvia was half-angel. Wouldn't that be kinda important? But Celiane's reincarnation really does go around, doesn't she
Is that why Apollonius ran away from her?

[kuromitsu]

I meant the status quo in Evol. Btw Amata also being a reincarnation was confirmed when the situation with him and Kagura was revealed, Zessica simply wasn't around to hear it for herself. The nature of the split between Amata and Kagura is what may come into play here, because no matter how we look, Kagura is the one who is similar to Apollo, Amata is a completely different person.

(And as for the overall effects, I think I'll just start pretending that Evol is happening in an alternate universe.)

Originally Posted by miketyson

To expand a bit: I doubt the movie thing is even going to turn out to be a negative, now. If there wasn't anything wrong with Silvia and Apollo falling in love due to some misconceptions, it seems unlikely that the show will turn around and say it'd be wrong for Kagura and Mikono to do the same...it's the present-day feelings, etc., that matter, not necessarily how you got there.

This is what I was saying, maybe I wasn't clear enough. Except Silvia and Apollo are not "present-day feelings," they're 12000-ys-ago feelings, which is why Kagura can treat it as destiny (and why Amata felt that it was destiny). And so, dogs or no dogs, we're back where we were in ep 21.

Originally Posted by mayumi

I wonder why they never mentioned that Silvia was half-angel. Wouldn't that be kinda important?

Not really - Celiane was fully human but this had no effect on her being reincarnated into a half-angel. Maybe the wings on Mikono's boots are a sort of meta memento of Silvia's feathers.

[miketyson]

kuromitsu: are you quite sure? I mean, I thought running up to that point there was strong *suggestion* that Kagura was Apollo's reincarnation, but only in the form of visions and "wow, he's just like that beast-guy in the visions", so on and so forth.

So the "you're me" confirms that if Kagura's a reincarnation so is Amata, but it wasn't until Zen spilled the beans that there was in-show *confirmation* that Kagura+Amata were *actually* reincarnations...did I forget something?

[KleenexGhost]

The problem I still have with the dog thing is that it kinda makes Amata's character even weaker. In episode 22 he said that he loves Mikono for her. Not because of all this reincarnation crap, but the dog thing just makes that meaningless because he loves her because it's fated, not because of his own free will and affection for her, which makes his whole quest to fight fate pointless.

One of things I liked about his character was that he was willing to go to the wall for Mikono, even though she hasn't really shown why she's worth it. It showed that he was willing to go that far out of his own affection, but with this new revelation it just makes him look a over dependent dog.

[Zuul]

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

The problem I still have with the dog thing is that it kinda makes Amata's character even weaker. In episode 22 he said that he loves Mikono for her. Not because of all this reincarnation crap, but the dog thing just makes that meaningless because he loves her because it's fated, not because of his own free will and affection for her, which makes his whole quest to fight fate pointless.

One of things I liked about his character was that he was willing to go to the wall for Mikono, even though she hasn't really shown why she's worth it. It showed that he was willing to go that far out of his own affection, but with this new revelation it just makes him look a over dependent dog.

Amata was parroting Zessica here. Not a single time did he come with a heartfelt line concerning his 'love' for Mikono. It's always the conventionnal cheesy stuff you pull to woo a girl even if you don't mean it.

OMG I love Mikono for herself, I could have bought it if Amata didn't suffer from a blatant case of love at first time with zero development past the first episode...

I fear and expect there is a troll hidden here. I think his feelings aren't much guenuine than his foe Kagura. Just remember Fudou's contempt at their little pityful fight.

EDIT : In episode 5, it was alright to pull corny line about their being fated. Anything that serve his cause.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by Zuul

Amata was parroting Zessica here. Not a single time did he come with a heartfelt line concerning his 'love' for Mikono. It's always the conventionnal cheesy stuff you pull to woo a girl even if you don't mean it.

OMG I love Mikono for herself, I could have bought it if Amata didn't suffer from a blatant case of love at first time with zero development past the first episode...

I fear and expect there is a troll hidden here. I think his feelings aren't much guenuine than his foe Kagura. Just remember Fudou's contempt at their little pityful fight.

True on all points.

While he did get his ass kicked by Kagura twice for her and did put his life on the line for her his romantic attraction to her felt shallow. Love at first sight indeed.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by miketyson

As-is, I just like "You kept talking so much about fate and fighting fate but now you realize you didn't even know what you were talking about" much, much more than I like the previous way the topic of fate had been handled.

I'd say that this revelation showed where fate was actually being fought and where it isn't. Pollon had wait thousands of years on a slim hope and wish that he'd be reincarnated with Celianne and that she'd notice him, subverting the intended story of Apollonius and Celianne much as Apollonius had subverted his and Touma's intended story. (In the case of Apollonius, certain outstanding details (perhaps guilt) kept him from reincarnating at all.)

In the case of EVOL, you have the opposite going on because (1.) Pollon never finished his story, dying to save the world, (2.) Celianne clinging to the cycles for an apology, and (3.) the promise from 12,000 years ago. Amata (the whole, or either part) and Mikono are following the steps that fate laid out, but no matter how you cut it, there is a stark difference between the case of Pollon -> Celianne/Apollonius, and Amagura/Mikono. The issue stands, of course, that as its set with Amata AND Kagura existing simultaneously, you could end up with a situation where you have a conclusion that satisfies fate and one that defies it, sending a very strange message. (Especially with the Touma background example of why clinging onto the past is a bad idea.)

Originally Posted by Zuul

Amata was parroting Zessica here. Not a single time did he come with a heartfelt line concerning his 'love' for Mikono. It's always the conventionnal cheesy stuff you pull to woo a girl even if you don't mean it.

OMG I love Mikono for herself, I could have bought it if Amata didn't suffer from a blatant case of love at first time with zero development past the first episode...

I fear and expect there is a troll hidden here. I think his feelings aren't much guenuine than his foe Kagura. Just remember Fudou's contempt at their little pityful fight.

Its called doing what you must to get what you want, the question that arises is more of "Do you really want it." or "Do you believe that you want it." and not "Do my reasons make sense.", and this is why I find it peculiar that Amata lost at that instant (unlike in Ep. 5, with the scene in Ep. 22 being an effective reversal of what it was in Ep. 5: Kagura knocks away Amata to catch Mikono, Amata knocks away Kagura to catch Mikono) to Kagura. His Wings of Glory had no effect unlike his previous Wings.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by mayumi

I just hope Silvia had kids so didn't waste her life to be trolled in nex life when she became Celiane again.

Apollo left her kids. Chibi and the other orphans.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Zuul

Amata was parroting Zessica here. Not a single time did he come with a heartfelt line concerning his 'love' for Mikono. It's always the conventionnal cheesy stuff you pull to woo a girl even if you don't mean it.

Yeah, he totally doesn't mean it, I mean we've already established that he's a creepy little jerkass, no? And he has so much experience with wooing girls.

Please tell me where Zessica said that Amata should love Mikono regardless of Mikono being reincarnated and destined for someone else. No, really, do please tell me. Because this is what Amata said, but hey, this doesn't show him in a bad light so let's twist everyone's words to make a case against Amata. . What Zessica actually said was that Kagura and Mikono were reincarnations of Apollon and Sylphie and such destined to be together, nothing more, nothing less.

>Vena
In ep 5 Amata could get away from Kagura using his wings because Kagura didn't use his power. The Detachment Wings worked once, but we never learned if they would've worked a second time because Cayenne intervened and shot Kagura. And the Wings of Glory didn't fail as much as Kagura needed to take Mikono away for plot reasons and kicking Amata's ass again was the only way to do it. (If it was important that it failed we would've gotten a longer scene of it failing, instead of just a scene with Amata and Mikono getting up on that roof, presumably after having fell down.)