[Anime] Umineko - Speculation & Theories (for first time viewers)

[Tjfarmer]

Not sure if anime kept it, but Beatrice specifically said;

"I am not you"

During her final riddle about Battler being the only one on the island.

[Chishio no Hana]

ah... I don't think the anime kept that in....

[maximilianjenus]

the anime did not keep it, but beatrice said that in red in the novel.

[Arachanox]

But Beatrice is still not Battler. She may be a fictional creation of his in his own mind, but that doesn't equate the two. I was not my imaginary friend when I was little.

[risingstar3110]

"Beatrice"'s real identity could be the real human culprit of Rokkenjima..... and realising her identity (and her motives) will leads Battler to finish himself (and in several world, others) off.....
....Obviously, there's no cute little sister hugging him from behind and telling him to return this time....

Then the whole Umineko could simply be about Battler and his inner conflict to find and prevent the tragedy before it flick his own "L5" switch (leading him to no-returning path). Of course, we also have the yuri loli pair to mess things around.

I also have a feeling that the culprits for each sacrifice in each world would be just like the case of Himazawa murdering series (rather than traditional cases).

[Marion]

Again do not account a Higurashi solution into Umineko.

Spoiler for higurashi spoilers:

I highly doubt the presence of a virus similar to Hinamizawa Syndrome, which itself is already a very improbable and illogical disease.

However I don't doubt there being one set culprit, aka the mastermind.

[Steampunk Librarian]

I'm new here, but I just finished the Anime. The last ep was pretty lame, so I hope all the important truths were made known, though I think you can twist the red truth around.

Spoiler for Deaths EP1-4:

It would seem like, in the first two games, there was a preferred order in which the victims die, whereas in the 3rd and 4th game, the culprit(s) seemed to have had a change in MO. The 4th game is especially strange because the twilights seemingly end at the 4th (where many victims had their head partially blown off or something, Shannon had a stake by her and I think Nanjo had a stake in his wound, something like that) and the killing has become more 'frantic' and 'disorganized' than in the previous games.

I propose that the culprit has a priority in who he kills. Maybe like a time limit or merely the victim knows something they shouldn't. The culprit already knows Kinzo is dead and already knows the location of the gold. Money is not the motivating factor.

In all games, Battler is among the last to die/go missing, in fact Episode 1, 2 and 4: he is apart of the 10th Twilight, aka missing. The culprit, I think, is trying to show something to him, such as their ability to kill every person he knows and loves for, perhaps, revenge because of that sin 6 years ago? We might not ever find out the 'sin,' because we don't know very much about that apart from: 1, Battler denounced his family name when Kyrie became his step-mother soon after Asumu's death, 2, Ange was born and 3, he stopped coming to the island Rokkenjima until the current trip. Obviously, if his sin is the reason why all the murders are taking place -- the culprit has been waiting for him to return to the island.

In game 1 and 2, I believe there is a possible pattern/MO for the culprit. All those children of Kinzo who bear the One-Winged Eagle have to die prior the 3rd Twilight (though Rosa managed to escape that fate in Game 2, which might be a clue?). I believe another important factor to this is the fact that Kinzo is dead before the game even starts and this applies to all games. The people who would know Kinzo is dead would be those who live on the island and those who are servants (and Nanjo, of course, assuming he visits often). Krauss knows Kinzo is dead. Natsuhi probably does not recognize that Kinzo is dead, because she is delusional in some way (I think). The servants, at least Genji, should all know he is dead, but they keep it a secret (bribed by Krauss?). Krauss, in these games, always dies amongst the first and the servants seem to always die last. In fact, Nanjo was 7th Twilight and Kumasawa was 8th for both games. I believe that they were both conspirators to the culprit, but not murderers. In some way, they were accomplices. Maybe helped with keys? There must be a slashing type weapon on the island, but someone would certainly notice a person with a butcher knife, so since Dr. Nanjo is on the island, maybe with his medical kit, the slashing wounds on the victims was a scalpel? I'm still developing an MO for games 1 and 2, but they seem consistent with each other in terms of order of death and how soon specific groups of people die.

Episode 3 is interesting because there is a survivor, Eva. However, what is most interesting is here all the servants are dead at first Twilight. Another thing is, prior to this game, Maria had been under the "missing" status; however, now she was strangled (not necessarily as the second Twilight, I don't remember seeing any stakes, but I could be wrong). It looks like this killer is not the same person as Episode 1 + 2, and it is this game where Battler is -not- one of the 10th Twilights, but in fact, is apparently murdered by Eva. Jessica, instead, is stated as the 10th Twilight. What's important to me, about this, is the fact that there is most likely more than one culprit and, prior to the game, something went wrong between them. For some reason, the murders could not be conducted as they had before. Eva survives this one and she is found at Kuwadorian. In EP4, we can see that after the incident, something reduced the Main Mansion and all its little areas around it to nothing, even clearing the forest around it (or so it looked, the picture was a bit...eh, sketchy?). This game is just sketchy itself, as the killings just seem really off and how did Eva manage to escape? Maybe she wasn't the one who killed Battler after all, and in fact, she had fled to the Kuwadorian in fear she would be murdered?

Episode 4 is full of lulz, that's all I can say with regards to the murders. There are definitely multiple culprits here, because its not only disorganized, but its also very messy. They don't seem to be in cohoots (at least not anymore). There is also the fact that Kumasawa and Gohda were shot while they had ropes around their neck. Its almost as if they were about to commit suicide, but the culprit got to them before hand and murdered them -- just to give the illusion of a closed room murder. There seems to also be no more "gouging" of the body parts apart from the head on (I think) both Shannon and Nanjo. While Battler is the final Twilight again, Kanon is missing, which places a lot of suspicion on him.

I still have to look into the deaths more, maybe read the VN since it probably has reds that totally negate everything I just said haha.

tl;dr:
I try to discover the MO of the culprit(s) in the games, but not necessarily think about WHODUNIT.

[ChibiBear]

Since Kinzo's been dead the entire time, doesn't that mean that all the times that Nanjo plays chess with him, he doesn't have an alibi?? not to mention that Nanjo and Kinzo are very close, so maybe Knizo taught him a thing or two about 'magic'?
So: In the first game, Nanjo could have handed the letter to Maria.
Also, before the 2nd twilight, around 7pm-ish, Nanjo and Genji are playing chess, and then Genji leaves to tell Natsuhi that dinner is ready.
After Genji left, Nanjo killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then hid in the room when Genji and Kanon came to call them for dinner. After they go off to find wire cutters/call Natsuhi, he draws the magic circle and leaves.

And for 6th-8th twilights:
Nanjo lets the culprit into the room, the culprit (and Nanjo(?)) kill Kumasawa and Genji, the culprit/killer then kills Nanjo, smashes their faces, instructs Maria and goes back into hiding.
OR
Nanjo lets the culprit into the room, the culprit and Nanjo kill Kumasawa and Genji, puts a fake corpse in Nanjo's place, smashes their faces, instructs Maria, then both go into hiding.

Is there any red truth/anything that counters this? I've been thinking of Nanjo as an accomplice for a while now, and it seems to make sense...

[Arbane the Terrible]

Originally Posted by ChibiBear

Also, before the 2nd twilight, around 7pm-ish, Nanjo and Genji are playing chess, and then Genji leaves to tell Natsuhi that dinner is ready.
After Genji left, Nanjo killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then hid in the room when Genji and Kanon came to call them for dinner. After they go off to find wire cutters/call Natsuhi, he draws the magic circle and leaves.

How did he get out of Eva's room while leaving the chain fastened?

[ChibiBear]

Hmm... good question... How about this then:
After Genji left, Nanjo killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then hid in the room when Genji and Kanon came to call them for dinner. After they go off to find wire cutters/call Natsuhi, he draws the magic circle and hides in the room again. After the room is sealed off again, he leaves and nobody ever checks the room again.

BTW that wasn't the theory I mentioned in the episode thread if that was what you were looking for...

[Steampunk Librarian]

Originally Posted by ChibiBear

Hmm... good question... How about this then:
After Genji left, Nanjo killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then hid in the room when Genji and Kanon came to call them for dinner. After they go off to find wire cutters/call Natsuhi, he draws the magic circle and hides in the room again. After the room is sealed off again, he leaves and nobody ever checks the room again.

BTW that wasn't the theory I mentioned in the episode thread if that was what you were looking for...

Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers. This is a Red Truth left out of the final episode. That's why I say they aren't murderers, but accomplices.

[ChibiBear]

I also think that Nanjo is an/the accomplice but I always thought that he helped kill people too... Ah well. They need to stop leaving out red truths =.=

Edit: I just looked it up, it said that the statement Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers. was referring to Kanon's death in EP1? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Steampunk Librarian]

Well, it only applies to EP 1, but I am trying to establish a common MO across all games... I think it will make it easier to figure out the WHY of it all.

- Its not for money.
- Its not for the headship.
- Its not just to kill innocent people for no reason.

Spoiler for Possible Culprits etc:

This is all for Battler, because of his sin. I want to know why these people die in the orders they do etc. I think knowing that will solve half the mystery. Knowing the why usually leads to the who. I don't think any of the Ushiromiya adults have anything to do with this. My prime suspects are: Shannon and Jessica. Someone is posing as "Beatrice" for Maria, and Maria is so young/naive, she'd believe anything probably. Shannon and Jessica were also both present 6 years ago, the last time Battler was on Rokkenjima (which is where this 'sin' happened). I'm iffy on the culprit being Jessica though, since she is attached to her family. I can't image what Battler has done to her. I have heard of a theory that involves "Beatrice" pretending to be Shannon to play with the other kids (a Beatrice raised and hidden in Kumadorian), but I'm not totally sure what that could mean.

Maybe Shannon in the game is not Shannon, but "Beatrice" who is really good at cosplay? Beats me.

I'm also trying to account for the truths in the magic scenes, that's why I think Ronoue and Kumasawa are involved in some way, because their "magical selves" are. They don't directly murder anyone (the stakes do) but they definitely know of and approve of these deaths.

[Arbane the Terrible]

Originally Posted by ChibiBear

Hmm... good question... How about this then:
After Genji left, Nanjo killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then hid in the room when Genji and Kanon came to call them for dinner. After they go off to find wire cutters/call Natsuhi, he draws the magic circle and hides in the room again. After the room is sealed off again, he leaves and nobody ever checks the room again.

I just checked the manga--Dr. Nanjo shows up at Eva's room at the same time Natsuhi does. If they're all working together (my current theory), that wouldn't present a problem, mind you. If fact, it could simplify things considerably: If all the servants are working together, whichever of the servants committed the murder could've cut the chain _then_, and only pretended to need to cut it later. The same goes for the "mysteriously appearing" magic circle on the door.

Originally Posted by ChibiBear

BTW that wasn't the theory I mentioned in the episode thread if that was what you were looking for...

I can't seem to find it. Got a link?

Originally Posted by Steampunk Librarian

Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers. This is a Red Truth left out of the final episode. That's why I say they aren't murderers, but accomplices.

Hm.... was that for that one game, or for all of them? It's a bit ambiguous that way.

One other crazy theory: According to Beatrice, There are no more than 17 people on this island. Has Battler actually ever seen Shannon and Kanon at the same time?

[ChibiBear]

I'm actually quite convinced that the central culprit is Kanon (Who may or may not be Shannon), possibly with an accomplice (Nanjo?), and another killer who changes depending on how the game starts.
I'm probably wrong, but I'm sticking with this until it's proved wrong

If Kanon is the culprit, him just pretending to cut the chain makes sense, maybe he and Nanjo planned it in advance and all Nanjo had to do was tape or glue the chain together or something...

After Genji left, Nanjo killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then hid in the room when Genji and Kanon came to call them for dinner. After they go off to find wire cutters/call Natsuhi, he draws the magic circle and glues/tapes the chain together and leaves. Kanon returns with the bolt cutters and pretends to cut the chain, and nobody inspects the chain closely enough to see the tape/glue or If the door was taped, Kanon removed the tape after pretending to cut the chain

[Steampunk Librarian]

Originally Posted by Arbane the Terrible

Hm.... was that for that one game, or for all of them? It's a bit ambiguous that way.

It was for Episode 1, specifically used when referring to the clockwise deaths, when Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo were all found dead while Maria faced a wall.

However, The Red Truth is absolute, as in, even if Beatrice was using the Red to speak of that particular incident, she would not be capable of saying it if it did not apply to the entire world of Episode 1. The reasoning being because the Red which was given does not specify this incident; therefor its vagueness is more like a blanket statement in which Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers

[Steampunk Librarian]

Originally Posted by ChibiBear

I'm actually quite convinced that the central culprit is Kanon (Who may or may not be Shannon), possibly with an accomplice (Nanjo?), and another killer who changes depending on how the game starts.
I'm probably wrong, but I'm sticking with this until it's proved wrong

Also for the servants working together thing, if Kanon is the culprit, him just pretending to cut the chain makes sense, maybe he and Nanjo planned it in advance and all Nanjo had to do was tape or glue the chain together or something...

After Genji left, Nanjo killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then hid in the room when Genji and Kanon came to call them for dinner. After they go off to find wire cutters/call Natsuhi, he draws the magic circle and glues/tapes the chain together and leaves. Kanon returns with the bolt cutters and pretends to cut the chain, and nobody closely inspects the chain.

I've begun to think there are 2 factions, because everyone ends up dead.

Spoiler for Faction A:

This has something to do with Battler. They want something from him, fear? The driving force behind the murders, the big boss.

Spoiler for Faction B:

These are the people working with Faction A, but it seems like in Episodes 3 and 4, there is a break up between them. I believe these people are the servants. I also believe that these are the people who burn Kinzo's corpse in an attempt to keep an autopsy from identifying a time of death.

Also, I just remembered: You know how the families of the servants received those keys that lead to the bank accounts loaded with cash? What if the servants were offered this deal -- in exchange for your service and your life, your families will be paid X yen? This would explain why the servants in both the REAL world and META world seem compliant to just lay over and die. Aside from Kanon, of course, who might be the problem child.

I made an edit on B if anyone just read this lol.

[ChibiBear]

I agree, the central culprit most likely has something against Battler.
My theory: Asumu had a son 18 years ago, who is not the Battler we know. Kanon's real name is not known, and very little is known about his childhood, and he could possibly be 18 years old and just look young for his age. Maybe he's the real 'Battler Ushiromiya', and he's taking revenge on Battler for taking away his title?

I can't seem to find my last post either... I'll post it again later and try to word it better because it didn't completely make sense last time.

[Steampunk Librarian]

Originally Posted by ChibiBear

I agree, the central culprit most likely has something against Battler.
My theory: Asumu had a son 18 years ago, who is not the Battler we know. Kanon's real name is not known, and very little is known about his childhood, and he could possibly be 18 years old and just look young for his age. Maybe he's the real 'Battler Ushiromiya', and he's taking revenge on Battler for taking away his title?

I think Kanon is supposed to be closer to Jessica's age. Besides, if Battler is not Asumu's son (as we know, biologically, they aren't related), then its far more likely that he is Kyrie's son. I wouldn't put it past Rudolf to have slept with them both and for their children to be born around the same time. However, Asumu not wanting to be without Rudolf, paid the doctor off to switch her stillborn with Kyrie's.

I think Kanon might be an accomplice, but he probably isn't always one. I think the games make him look suspicious on purpose, a red herring maybe.

[ChibiBear]

I did think that Kanon was being framed since it seemed too obvious, but it seems easier to explain if he was the culprit