2012-10-26, 16:40 | Link #31001 | |
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On a second thought Nanjo might have had second thoughts and hoped that, if George were to talk to Yasu she would stop and then send him to do just so. However this instead causes Yasu to have to kill George whom she might have possibly wanted to leave alive till the end so she, in retaliation, kill Nanjo when it wasn't necessary anymore (she didn't need sacrifices anymore and she could have waited for the bomb to go KABOOM) maybe in fear he would tattle out the truth to someone else. |
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2012-10-26, 17:45 | Link #31002 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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I noticed something. All the points in EP3 where Beatrice is present is the same spot where Nanjo is and or Nanjo could easily be. What if in EP3 Nanjo = Beatrice.
1st Twilight: Suppose we use Battler's solution, Nanjo would have the key and could easily have backstabbed Yasu at night. 2nd Twilight: Had no Alibi. George and the Window: Nanjo supposedly let him out. Beatrice Supposedly let him out. Beatrice Reunited George with Shannon: Nanjo could have killed him to "Reunite" Them. Nanjo dies infront of the room where Jessica is. Beatrice is defeated infront of the room where Jessica is. Nanjotrice Theory go. |
2012-10-26, 18:42 | Link #31003 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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In regards to the rain, can someone provide a situation where the culprit would have to have been wet and had no time to dry off? I am sure there is one, I just can't really think of it. And as an aside: It is hard to determine if there was any sort of murder game or not, but in my mind it doesn't really matter to this part of the theory. Either by them solving it or Yasu simply deciding to help, the existence of the gold was made clear (by the way, I always wondered if it were truly that big a pile. All the fights over it and just logic would dictate there was probably a lot of money's worth, but not that massive mountain). I was trying to think of reasons for Battler to be in one tunnel and Eva to be alone in another. Using themes from the story and Ryu's interview stating the adults did something, I had an idea that doesn't involve multiple paranoia mass murders (which always sat poorly with me). All through the series we have seen the cousins, and specifically Battler, leave the adults in disgust when they argue over inheritance. I was thinking it was likely the adults were shown the gold, and they fought over it. Then I couldn't imagine why Eva would leave that sort of argument, and all I could think of is the series has shown us from ep 1 Eva worrying she is a bad and selfish mother, and George promising to fight for Shannon. So I wonder if some heated words weren't exchanged between Eva and George. Why Hideyoshi would let her go off alone is questionable, but all I have is gold for that one, or maybe she herself sent him back to make sure they got some. How the bomb gets set off is a further question, but anything that comes of that question is pure speculation, though we have received two possible hints: the shattering of the clock and screen shown often in loading, and more strongly, the scene where it was made clear the adults might not trust Yasu's claims as to whether the clock was on or off. The only thing about this is Our Confession sort of says that Kinzo never really sat around playing with some clock switch and everyone's lives, and that that was an embellishment made to convince Natsuhi. This vicious behavior by the adults and the way Kyrie and Rudolf had been acting before dying might have been what Eva wanted to keep from Ange, with the fact even she doesn't know what happened in the last few minutes being a further blow. All theories are possible in a catbox. |
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2012-10-26, 19:41 | Link #31004 | |
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Then Eva cries over her son's death, and supposes Shannon is dead, not realizing the truth. Shannon recovers and goes to protect Jessica as Kanon, then kills Nanjo and dies. I guess Eva's localization at George death can deny this, but I can't remember where she was exactly, so there's my 2-cents |
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2012-10-26, 20:07 | Link #31005 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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2012-10-26, 23:29 | Link #31007 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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It's in the game data, but isn't programmed to show up when you actually play the game. That's what I meant by "hidden".
But yeah, in that sequence of pictures (when Ange reads Eva's diary) there's a couple more pictures in the game data. One is of outside the mansion with George looking mad, and another is of Natsuhi, looking worried, standing in front of Beatrice's portrait. I don't remember if there were more. Jan-Poo posted it a while back in this post, but the picture link is dead now. Quote:
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2012-10-27, 08:50 | Link #31008 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Finished translating Our Confessions:
Spoiler for After-discussion between Dlanor and Beatrice:
Spoiler for Dlanor's epilogue:
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2012-10-27, 17:20 | Link #31009 |
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@Renall:
Spoiler for size:
Well, it's great that you're making theories. However, I think this illustrates the point you're missing here. You constructed that theory by reading over EP5 after you finished it and finding clues. You had to think very carefully over all you read and build a "story" of your own. If Ryuukishi had included that part of the "answer" directly in his ending, you wouldn't have gotten the chance to do that bit of reasoning. It would only be a matter of tying up a few loose ends and grading Ryuukishi on his work, rather than actually playing the game he's made. Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you had this whole theory ready to go before reading the end of the Hidden Tea Party. It's thanks to Ryuukishi's writing style that you were able to figure it out for yourself. Also, as for the theory itself, I think Dlanor would have asked a lot more questions, considering that you've shown no evidence that the theory actually happened (only some indirect evidence that it might have been possible), and since there's no explanation as to motive, either for Battler or the people who went along with his plan. Erika covered both of these bases in her theory, so at least at the moment, hers is still superior.
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2012-10-27, 21:12 | Link #31010 | |
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But mostly the fact the George often talks about telling his mother (or at least tells Shannon about it) and we are shown a rather dramatic interpretation of that event in ep 6. Plus there is a certain tragedy to Eva getting angry and telling him to go off and do what he likes (see: Rosa and Maria in the rain) to feel first regret, then like a selfish mother, and then to have him blown to pieces. |
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2012-10-28, 00:01 | Link #31011 | |||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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And if you do, for the love of God just come out with it and stop with the intellectual masturbation. At least I have the courtesy to do my masturbation in public. Also, it wasn't a theory, which you would have noticed if you'd bothered to actually read it instead of just quoting it to talk down to me. It was a rewrite suggestion. It's not a theory because it's not an attempt to explain the work itself, but to restructure it. Quote:
What are you even talking about? Are you honestly suggesting that his refusal to ever answer anything somehow makes the experience better? Are you genuinely of the belief that leaving the "game" open all the time is better than at least clearing up what's gone on and leaving tantalizing bits for moving forward? Because that's all we need. Bits. It was criminal to begin with to cut the story off and acknowledge that he doesn't really care all that much anymore about coherent lower-level narrative. Now personally, I think his "writing style" is over-meandering crap and all it did was waste time and intentionally try to confuse everyone. End is nothing more than a few nuggets of interest in a sea of filler. I understand the personal situation may not have been best for him, but he was the one who chose to soldier on with it and release it. There are much better ways to have written End, but quite honestly I think it was a misfire to begin Chiru in the fashion he did to begin with. Still, trying to offer constructive criticism here with minor suggestions, while addressing the stuff that he actually wrote. What exactly are you doing? Quote:
Moreover, his theory has more factual credibility, because it opens more avenues for holes in Erika's theory that are conveniently ignored because the trial is unfair and the writing is bad (such as the calls and Krauss's death). Of course, if you have a better idea, why don't you stop wasting everyone's time and throw it out there? I'm not going to beg you for snippets of your transcendent wisdom.
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2012-10-28, 15:20 | Link #31012 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Was just wondering, after some thought.
Back in arc 2's intro, Shkanontrice actually seemed so obvious at first. At that point, I did think all three were one being, and I'm sure many others thought something similar. But then came later on in the same arc the red truth. I believed the red truth, and thus discarded what I thought of the intro of arc 2. But in the long run that made me wonder, if ultimately Shkanon was really something hard to accept, or if it wasn't the "betrayal" of the red that made it that way (even tho we've been told over and over that red was a weapon used by the witch against us)? Because I'm thinking if I forget the existence of the red, we probably would've established them being one being much earlier and not making much a fuss about it when it turned out to be probably true. Much later the arc 5 parlor scene messed that up further tho. I think that even tho explanations were found for it, all of them seemed to be bending the rules to find a way for it to happen and not be anything very meaningful tho. I still feel like we are missing something there. Still without it and the red, so basically with the narrative of the question arcs, is Shkanon really hard to accept? + Wow Renall. |
2012-10-28, 15:51 | Link #31013 | |
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Not mentioning that, unless she was already planning the murder game 2/3 years earlier than it happened, the motive for her to lead a double life is weak. Mind you, I accept it as the solution because that's clearly what it's meant to be but... each time I think at Yasu putting it into practice I've weird flash of Yasu switching clothes in a Clark Kent's style so that she can 'confortably' switch between the two, Natsuhi who suddently stop being the control freak and completely miss the fact that she's paying the same person twice, Kanon or Shannon either skipping work or having to work twice the normal amount Jessica being so blind she doesn't realize her love interest shares the same face as her best friend (let's assume George is really that blind as he wear glasses... or that he never paid Kanon a second glance) and so on. Just to name a few. All things that can be possible but that, as far as I'm involved, are hard to swallow when placed together. |
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2012-10-28, 16:32 | Link #31014 | |
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Will's sudden red "It's not allowed for a servant to be the culprit" and the co-existence of Shannon and Kanon TOGETHER with Lion in ep7 despite Shannon's bluescreen still makes me wonder if we should accept ShaKanonTrice as the culprit. Regarding Natsuhi indirectly telling us that Shannon is one of the culprits in ep5, it is somehow TOO obvious. In this part I have to agree with KNM with the probability of 4 tarrot-cards in different locations, since it feels so similar to the case from ep7 where Yasu switched Belphagore's key out "with magic". Remeber that scene?) Especially the red. Why on earth did Ryu07 mention it? Is he just trolling us (again)? Shannon also said in her bluescreen ("The one who orders us"), which can mean either Yasu, the troll-author or Kinzo/Genji/Natsuhi. |
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2012-10-28, 17:32 | Link #31015 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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I'm awaiting an answer from Wanderer which is regards to the whole "Yasu" thing as I do admit eventhough I'm probably the only one, I do think Jessica is deeply involved.
Was actually my main suspect of being Beatrice until Yasu came in. Quote:
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2012-10-28, 18:02 | Link #31016 | |
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The question of fooling others is really a separate thing, because it spawns a debate on fooling who. I think it makes more sense, if we accept Shkanon, to think about who'd need to be "in" in order for it to work, as well as why did it begin in the first place. I personally think it'd be easy to fool everyone when Kinzo was alive since they were his personal servants. After that, I think Natsuhi and Krauss has no reasons to be fooled since they're in along with Yasu and the servants about the death of Kinzo. Jessica to me has shown hints of knowing that about it as well. Basically it would be people not on Rokkenjima fooled. I even think there's a good chance her asking Shannon to dress like a boy to pretend being her boyfriend at school might be the origin of Kanon. Think that in most of Umineko, people are rarely visually fooled - that usually indicates someone lying not someone fooled. |
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2012-10-28, 19:54 | Link #31017 | ||||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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I've built a theory that gave Yasu a limited number of accomplices in order to make ShKanon work but I can't say Umineko offers us a theory about it. As far as Umineko tells us Kanon showed up a year before Yasu solved the epitaph and his existence as his own being is never questioned so any solution to the how is in a catbox. Quote:
Note that the working schedule is under everyone's eyes in the servant room and that Natsuhi is described as the sort of person that control the servants so it's not like they can handle on their own as they please. Kinzo's complicity might assure Genji's complicity but then, why should Kinzo be an accomplice in this for a full year as he doesn't know yet Yasu is Beato? And would Yasu dare to ask him complicity in this when Yasu has no idea Kinzo is his father/grandfather? Quote:
As I said, I've built my theory about why they would do this but I'm curious about yours, if you've one. Quote:
So, either she isn't really supportive of George and Shannon or she's not in love with him or she has given up on him or she's trying to organize a threesome without Yasu knowing as Yasu seems to stick on the idea she must have only 1 loved one and either leave with George or remain on Rokkenjima with Jessica. In short if Jessica is aware that Shannon=Kanon this can solve some problems about her being fooled (she calls Shannon her best friend and is in love with Kanon and doesn't notice a thing about the two of them being the same person?) but then it would destroy part of her characterization. Quote:
Though I think that's the sort of problem Ryukishi didn't worry about, like the rain not soaking people, it's still a thing that pushes me not to apprecciate the ShKanon solution. Quote:
Also technically Shannon/Kanon and Lion didn't exist in the same universe. Shannon and Kanon says they don't know him. Basically Bern as pieced together two universes, the one in which ShKanon existed and the one in which Lion existed, in fact Maria and Jessica, when answering Will about their experiences with Beato talked of a world where Lion didn't exist, and Lion is unaware of Beato's existence as the witch of Rokkenjima. Interesting enough Shannon and Kanon are the only ones who don't know Lion, while the others, although talking of a world were Lion doesn't exist when answering to Will, knows Lion. This is likely because the jessica of Lion's world and the Jessica of ShKanon's world were... turned into a single being with the knowledge of both Jessica... while the same wasn't possible for ShKanon as they didn't exist in Lion's universe. Quote:
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Though I personally like the idea of Gamemaster Genji who's trying to use Yasu to get Kinzo's gold... but Umineko always described Genji as loyal to his master/masters so this would mean throwing his characterization out of the window... |
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2012-10-28, 22:05 | Link #31018 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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However, I abandoned that line of thinking very quickly, since, to be frank, the idea that "Shannon and Kanon might be the same person" just flew in the face of common sense. Especially since the story had not been going on long enough at all for there to be a pattern of "Battler never sees them together, OoooOOOoooo", it seemed like they were presented as present in front of SO MANY people that it was clearly preposterous, and of course, the idea that noone would recognize it? It was a dumb idea then, and it's mostly still a dumb idea now, just one I accept as the authors intention. Honestly, and it's been said before by others, but I doubt Ryu had fully thought out all the "mechanics" and logistics of his solution, yet. Considering also that he gave several arcs HUGE rewrites depending on how the Japanese fandom was reacting to the previous ones, I think, at best, he had a vague idea of the general sentiment of Shkanon, and didn't think the details out beyond Oct. 4 and 5 1986. And that sentiment, IMO, seems to be about acknowledging Kanon's distinct personhood, the "magic" that allowed for his existence int he first place, and how that magic is strenghtened by having it acknowledged by others. Still, though, if there had been just one line, something like "actually, Kanon doesn't work here very often, he's more of a part-time guy..." or maybe saying that Shannon and Kanon were actual blood siblings, instead of just "close like a brother and sister", or even, actually, if the story were written with her several years OLDER than she currently is, it would just avoid so many of the obvious problems. ... thinking on it this way, I can explain Will's nonsensical "We don't need to hear about the last two years" as not just Ryu being lazy, but by saying Even Will knew the bullshit that layed ahead would probably have been too much for even HIS patience. |
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2012-10-29, 03:29 | Link #31019 |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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I always kind of feel like people are missing the point when they discuss how plausible it would be for Yasu to actually act out the lives of two different people. I mean, the gameboards aren't real. They're just message bottle stories. It seems pretty clear to me that she never did something like that in real life; she's deliberately emphasising the differences between the three people that she would like to become, and thus presenting them as three different characters in the fantasy narrative. There's no reason to believe she ever did anything like this in the real world.
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2012-10-29, 04:01 | Link #31020 |
The True Culprit
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Except that it seems extremely important that she had these three romances and no one seemed to understand there was a conflict. If George and Jessica knew they were pining for the same person, you think it'd come up. It does for George and Battler, but...
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