[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Nih]

Actually, even Higurashi can be explained from an anti-fantasy perspective. There's a reason Saikoroshi-hen is called "The Dice Killing Chapter". But it's only one of the many possible interpretations. Kanon and Shannon mentioning they remember things is just another reference by Ryukishi and should not be taken seriously, imo.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Actually it could have been everyone, since there is a really big gap between them locking up and being found.
So I don't think this closed room is that difficult. Actually none of the closed rooms are as closed as they seem to be.

Also, i kinda start to think that the servants might remember everything. just a hunch. (In Ep 1 they talked like the murders happened often and it could have hit everyone) But this is way to anti-mystery xDD

About the chapel murders in EP 2. Could it be that Rosa opened the letter before she did in front of Battler, just to check whats in it, cause she was worried what was inside? And then put it back without using it? After that someone sneaked in got the key and but it back.

The key didn't pass through anyone's hands. so unless the culprit used his feet to open the door and walked on his hands till there I don't think this is possible.

Anyway the harder closed room to explain imho is Natsuhi's room on Ep2. The only way I can explain it is by saying that whoever checked the body with the key to the room is the one who actually placed it there at that very time. Who was it again?

[Kitsu]

The key didn't pass through anyone hands from the time Maria got the letter till Rosa opened it or so
If Rosa opened already before the time she did in front of Battler, let's say she sneaked into the cousins room at 0:01 to find out if the message for Maria was important or so, saw the key, was a little bit confused and put it back. After that the culprit got in got the key, created the closed room and then put it back to Maria.


I dunno who checked them sorry, I would guess it was Nanjo since he is the doctor and did all the time

[Nih]

The thing about the chapel key: while I think the envelope was unsealed sometime after midnight (regardless of whether Rosa was the culprit or not), you have to realize just how fragile that statement is. Because while it may seem stupid, technically, Rosa could have unsealed that envelope at any point in time and after that the part that states that the key did not pass through anyone's hands is no longer in effect.

[Serpit]

Originally Posted by Nih

The thing about the chapel key: while I think the envelope was unsealed sometime after midnight (regardless of whether Rosa was involved or not), you have to realize just how fragile that statement is. Because while it may seem stupid, technically, Rosa could have unsealed that envelope at any point in time and after that the part that states "the key did not pass through anyone's hands" is no longer in effect.

I'm not entirely sure, but was it ever stated in red that the letter Maria originally received actually the key? If not, then then Maria might have gotten an envelope with something else inside. The mruderer then used the key, still in his possession, to open the chaped door, then placed it in a second envelope, snuck it in Maria's handbag at night and took the original envelope with him.

[MeoTwister5]

I think I understand now how Ange's chronology of events work now before, during and after the events of the meta world.

Spoiler for Spoilers:

It seems that Ange did enter the game when she did jump from the building. However, Beato did kick her out when she managed to prove that Battler wasn't Asumu's son, and from my own POV this was when she returned to her reality in 1998 and landed on safely on the awnings of the building. From here is when she decided to undertake her journey to Rokkenjima to understand truly the events that transpired and to learn the nature of witches. Two scenes point to this:

1. After returning to the building to talk with Bern, she reveals that she thought it was possible that even if she saved Battler in the game she'd end up doing it only for the Ange of 1986 of the parallel world and not for herself. She also thought that Bern was tricking her. This idea of course was introduced by Lambda during the game.

2. She would reenter the game in the place where Beato and Maria were shut in, the very same place Beato retreated to when she successfully made meta Battler disappear.

I'm not entirely sure, but was it ever stated in red that the letter Maria originally received actually the key? If not, then then Maria might have gotten an envelope with something else inside. The mruderer then used the key, still in his possession, to open the chaped door, then placed it in a second envelope, snuck it in Maria's handbag at night and took the original envelope with him.

It was stated in red that the key was already inside the letter when Maria received it. It is also the only key to enter the chapel with. The only way a human person could have entered to murder or plant the bodies there was with the key, and given the circumstances, this person woud have had to retrieve the key from Maria's bag and replace it there.

[Jan-Poo]

-The contents of the envelope which I gave to Maria was certainly the key to the chapel

This is even better.

As for Kitsu theory, it is certainly possible but do you realize how twisted is this logic? You need to imagine that Rosa sneaked inside the cousin's room just to take a peak inside Maria's letter (after midnight) and then someone else entered the room and took the key. It would make more sense if Rosa herself took the key at that time.

[Kitsu]

Well that could certainly true but I don't like Rosa=culprit

But how about this, Rosa was told to retrieve the key, locked up for them and then she was told to go and lock up after her, for some strange reason. Or she was angry left and childishly locked them up. Then they killed each other and the last one commits suicide

[Serpit]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

-The contents of the envelope which I gave to Maria was certainly the key to the chapel

This is even better.
.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

It was stated in red that the key was already inside the letter when Maria received it. It is also the only key to enter the chapel with. The only way a human person could have entered to murder or plant the bodies there was with the key, and given the circumstances, this person woud have had to retrieve the key from Maria's bag and replace it there.

To be fair, this just means that the letter Maria received definitely held the key. It doesn't, however, gaurantee that the letter Maria got in front of Rosa was the same Rosa pulled out the next morning. If I assume Maria was first handed a trick letter, which was then replaced by the one containing the actual key, the conditions are still satisfied.

[MeoTwister5]

Well my point in the matter has always been that, while we cannot prove or disprove at this point if that was ever even the same letter, the fact of the matter remains that should a human have been the culprit he needed access to that key and only that key, which means this person would have had to get it from Maria's bag and return it at some point.

[Nih]

I don't like Rosa = the culprit theory either. Partly because I still like the character But mostly because to me that implies illogical behavior on part of the culprit. I hope we can all agree that this crime had to be premeditated and that there was someone present in the garden of episode two. Otherwise why would Maria and Kyrie both claim they saw someone?

I don't think it plausible that the main culprit would recruit accomplices after October 4th. That means they would be taking a major risk. What if Rosa would simply say, no I don't want to? Or are we supposed to think that the mastermind made Rosa an offer she could not refuse then on the spur of the moment Rosa decided to viciously murder her siblings? Not impossible I guess, but to me it seems pretty stupid.

Therefore, the arrangements had to be made before the family conference.
Therefore, if Rosa was an accomplice, there was no reason for her not to know about the contents of the letters. The only possible motive for Rosa I can see at this point is the need for money. This implies to me that "Beatrice" who seems pretty rich promised Rosa a nice compensation. If that were not the case I don't see why Rosa would kill her siblings when her other alternative was to extract money from Krauss with their help. And if Rosa knew everything from the start, that means she pulled off one giant act. Trying to open the letter in front of Maria (why?). Throwing up in the chapel (someone who would help arranging that scene should not have had any problems afterwards imho). And finally, stealing one of the ingots in the end. If she was already promised money, why would she bother? Does this mean something went wrong? If so, what?

To me it seems a lot more logical that Rosa was simply used for the murders by the culprit (along with Maria and Kyrie) to help support the illusion of a witch.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Serpit

To be fair, this just means that the letter Maria received definitely held the key. It doesn't, however, gaurantee that the letter Maria got in front of Rosa was the same Rosa pulled out the next morning. If I assume Maria was first handed a trick letter, which was then replaced by the one containing the actual key, the conditions are still satisfied.

That is also my theory:

The murder happens before midnight, everything from the time the chapel got opened till the time it was closed happened around 23:00-23:30
Maria receives the letter a little before midnight by "Beatrice", substituting the fake letter with the new letter
Rosa the next morning opens the new letter and obtains the key to the chapel


What is not clear is why Rosa left the chapel and doesn't tell anyone what happened. Why she only suspects the servants instead of Beatrice?


I do not like the theory that Rosa is the culprit either, however finding an explanation to "save" her is very difficult...

[Renall]

I've figured out the mastermind of ep2. It was all so obvious!

Spoiler for Episode 2, Cracked:

While attending to the family conference late in the evening, Rosa came by the kitchen and mentioned to Gohda that there was going to be a Halloween party for Maria in the chapel the next day. Thinking this was a wonderful idea, Gohda decided to make some special treats for the occasion, but because he was distracted he accidentally reached for the box marked "Tiny Food Bombs" instead of the sugar. He gave some of the treats to Rosa, who took them to her siblings. They all went to the chapel to check out the party since they'd probably be too tired in the morning, when the tiny food bombs exploded and killed everyone but Rosa, who wasn't hungry.

Later, Gohda was hanging out and he heard Jessica having an asthma attack. Rushing upstairs, he found Kanon with her and reached for her inhaler, but as he swung it over to give it to her she tripped and he accidentally impaled her in the back with it. Kanon assumed he was trying to kill her and they struggled, and Gohda accidentally pushed Kanon out the window. Realizing he was going to get in so much trouble for this, he quietly locked the window, planted a stake in Jessica's wound, and walked off whistling.

While bored, Gohda decided to show off a new knife trick he learned to Nanjo and Kumasawa. Disaster occurred. Genji suggested they blame Kanon for it so nobody would find out, and dump the bodies somewhere.

Later in the evening, George and Shannon refused to believe Gohda's claim that he was capable of juggling three Stakes of Purgatory at the same time. Upset, Gohda offered to prove it to them in Natsuhi's room. Tragically, he was not as proficient as he thought he was.

Genji called Battler upstairs to tell him everything. Battler couldn't accept this ridiculous scenario, and declared that it was more likely that a witch did it.

[Nih]

I think she "suspects" the servants because (while it's likely she was in the chapel), she did not know that the siblings would be killed afterwards. If she is innocent, there are several possibilities here: one could be she does not think "Beatrice" commited the crime alone and another could be that she knows that she is a prime suspect, so she is frantically trying to place suspicion on everyone else (even poor Battler wasn't spared ).

[vandakiara]

Originally Posted by Renall

I've figured out the mastermind of ep2. It was all so obvious!

Spoiler for Episode 2, Cracked:

While attending to the family conference late in the evening, Rosa came by the kitchen and mentioned to Gohda that there was going to be a Halloween party for Maria in the chapel the next day. Thinking this was a wonderful idea, Gohda decided to make some special treats for the occasion, but because he was distracted he accidentally reached for the box marked "Tiny Food Bombs" instead of the sugar. He gave some of the treats to Rosa, who took them to her siblings. They all went to the chapel to check out the party since they'd probably be too tired in the morning, when the tiny food bombs exploded and killed everyone but Rosa, who wasn't hungry.

Later, Gohda was hanging out and he heard Jessica having an asthma attack. Rushing upstairs, he found Kanon with her and reached for her inhaler, but as he swung it over to give it to her she tripped and he accidentally impaled her in the back with it. Kanon assumed he was trying to kill her and they struggled, and Gohda accidentally pushed Kanon out the window. Realizing he was going to get in so much trouble for this, he quietly locked the window, planted a stake in Jessica's wound, and walked off whistling.

While bored, Gohda decided to show off a new knife trick he learned to Nanjo and Kumasawa. Disaster occurred. Genji suggested they blame Kanon for it so nobody would find out, and dump the bodies somewhere.

Later in the evening, George and Shannon refused to believe Gohda's claim that he was capable of juggling three Stakes of Purgatory at the same time. Upset, Gohda offered to prove it to them in Natsuhi's room. Tragically, he was not as proficient as he thought he was.

Genji called Battler upstairs to tell him everything. Battler couldn't accept this ridiculous scenario, and declared that it was more likely that a witch did it.

I laughed so hard at this :'D

it'd be so cool if it were really true

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Renall

I've figured out the mastermind of ep2. It was all so obvious!

Spoiler for Episode 2, Cracked:

While attending to the family conference late in the evening, Rosa came by the kitchen and mentioned to Gohda that there was going to be a Halloween party for Maria in the chapel the next day. Thinking this was a wonderful idea, Gohda decided to make some special treats for the occasion, but because he was distracted he accidentally reached for the box marked "Tiny Food Bombs" instead of the sugar. He gave some of the treats to Rosa, who took them to her siblings. They all went to the chapel to check out the party since they'd probably be too tired in the morning, when the tiny food bombs exploded and killed everyone but Rosa, who wasn't hungry.

Later, Gohda was hanging out and he heard Jessica having an asthma attack. Rushing upstairs, he found Kanon with her and reached for her inhaler, but as he swung it over to give it to her she tripped and he accidentally impaled her in the back with it. Kanon assumed he was trying to kill her and they struggled, and Gohda accidentally pushed Kanon out the window. Realizing he was going to get in so much trouble for this, he quietly locked the window, planted a stake in Jessica's wound, and walked off whistling.

While bored, Gohda decided to show off a new knife trick he learned to Nanjo and Kumasawa. Disaster occurred. Genji suggested they blame Kanon for it so nobody would find out, and dump the bodies somewhere.

Later in the evening, George and Shannon refused to believe Gohda's claim that he was capable of juggling three Stakes of Purgatory at the same time. Upset, Gohda offered to prove it to them in Natsuhi's room. Tragically, he was not as proficient as he thought he was.

Genji called Battler upstairs to tell him everything. Battler couldn't accept this ridiculous scenario, and declared that it was more likely that a witch did it.

YOU GOT MEEEEEEEEEEEEE

|D lulz~

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I think I understand now how Ange's chronology of events work now before, during and after the events of the meta world.

Spoiler for Spoilers:

It seems that Ange did enter the game when she did jump from the building. However, Beato did kick her out when she managed to prove that Battler wasn't Asumu's son, and from my own POV this was when she returned to her reality in 1998 and landed on safely on the awnings of the building. From here is when she decided to undertake her journey to Rokkenjima to understand truly the events that transpired and to learn the nature of witches. Two scenes point to this:

1. After returning to the building to talk with Bern, she reveals that she thought it was possible that even if she saved Battler in the game she'd end up doing it only for the Ange of 1986 of the parallel world and not for herself. She also thought that Bern was tricking her. This idea of course was introduced by Lambda during the game.

2. She would reenter the game in the place where Beato and Maria were shut in, the very same place Beato retreated to when she successfully made meta Battler disappear.

I think Ange of 1998 and ANGE in the meta world are completely different entity. ANGE is more likely a piece (or a witch) create by Ange in 1998 (and Bern, maybe). I look at Meta world as a place exist out of time axis and only witches and pieces can exist there.

Well, I also think that Battler in the meta world also a piece created by real Battler (or at least entity create by Battler in one of the world) and Bern too.

Actually, how many layer of games are there? I think we have a game between Lambda and Bern-chan. Pieces of this game are Battler (Meta) and Beatrice. Then we have Battler playing with Beatrice. Their pieces are people on Rokkenjima during 2 days of the family conference. Battler is capable of controlling his piece (Battler in the game board) and Beatrice can control the rest (I guess).

[Marion]

Actually if you look at a chessboard the number of pieces each side has is 16. But there are 17 humans, including Battler. If you want, you can say Battler doesn't have his own piece on the board. But you can also say that one of the 17 is the culprit and that piece was transferred to Beatrice's side at the start of the game.

Oh, first post on page 100! Do I get a prize ?

[Kitsu]

You get a sparkling butterfly

And ...I as a chess loving person didn't notice that xDD

[Alaya]

To me, it's more like Battler is the only white piece on the board, where the rest are black...