2011-11-25, 20:42 | Link #25941 |
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I could be wrong but I don't think electronic detonators existed until around the time the US was involved in Vietnam. However, it's trivial to get a clock to send an electrical pulse as long as you have the mechanisms complete a circuit. How Kinzo did it isn't that important as long as he can send an electrical signal to a detonator.
Having said that, I don't get Jan-Poo's point about it needing to be exactly midnight. It's never exactly midnight. Midnight is largely arbitrary. If most of the island thought it was 00:00 and it just so happened one clock was off by a few minutes, who cares? Besides, it's a fiction; we don't actually know the exact moment of detonation in R-Prime.
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2011-11-25, 22:57 | Link #25942 | ||
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You should have understood what I meant by my last post, if my english is that bad please tell me where it wasn't clear.
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2011-11-25, 23:02 | Link #25943 | |
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''Ep 5 was made by monkeys''. I mean, can this really work? Can Erika listen to Battler's breathing all night, not notice the others breathing, then feel stumped when Battler claims he could have killed him after his scream? Is the only way to explain it ''Ryukishi didn't think that far''? This seems like a serious slip, if Erika could honestly elevate Battler's status to red truth(even if that's worthless?) based on her testimony of hearing his breathing, we should assume that she could have heard at least the other cousins breathing.... This...I just don't get this. |
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2011-11-25, 23:12 | Link #25944 |
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Does it make sense that Erika improvised alchemical analysis of footprints and dirt to reach the status of red truth about Genji's room, using the stuff she found in Kinzo's room? Because that's what she said.
I see only two possible scenario here. Either Erika actually did all the things she claimed she did in Ep5 (and the story would lose any chance of any plausible realism), or Erika didn't do the things that she claim she's done; the story actually developed differently and most of what we saw and what she claims never happened. This second possibility branches even further in how the red truths were dealt with: Either Erika used a more credible method to reach her red truths (and for some reasons she didn't tell), or Erika received hose red truths from some other source (which can be some unfair power granted to her by Bernkastel, or from Lambdadelta herself who was in league with Bernkastel for some reasons).
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2011-11-26, 00:12 | Link #25945 | |
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An electrical detonator, like the ones used in nuclear bombs, should suffice to activate the bomb at a rather precise moment in time. There were some who were invented especially for the purpose of having a short time to the actual explosion. Digital clocks were invented pretty early, the first patents came around the 50's, but there are also some classical clocks which were able to measure a 24 hour system, so it's not completely unlikely for the clockwork to be able to do that. |
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2011-11-26, 02:23 | Link #25946 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Between 1:00 AM and 3:00 AM Rosa and the cousins hid in another upstairs room of the guesthouse. Battler entered an empty cousins' room at 3:00AM and slept there by himself until morning. Meanwhile, after Erika had put her ear to the cousins' room and was listening to Battler sleep by himself, Rosa and the cousins quietly left the room they were hiding in and sneaked out of the guesthouse.
Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-11-26 at 02:34. |
2011-11-26, 07:00 | Link #25948 | |
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About detonators, yes they did exist before the 1940s. So they could easily use some for the mechanism. |
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2011-11-26, 08:53 | Link #25949 | |||
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These quotes are a few pages back but anyway...
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If the truth Ange learned is that Sayo Yasuda is the one who murdered their entire family well I really don't get her reaction. Not to mention I really wouldn't get why would Eva protect her from the truth. It's not even "weird" but rather totally random. I guess it could be possible to reason it given a very specific scenario, it's probably something supporters of Yasu murderer in prime should try to explain. Quote:
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Here is such a theoretical scenario. Thunder makes a short circuit somehow leading to the bomb exploding. Before it does at one point Eva and Battler solves the epitaph and follow the path to Kuwadorian and end up being safe while everyone else blows up. A lot of bad stuff would have happened at the family conference (adults fighting over the inheritance and the sort of usual things we see in most arcs before the murders) and this would be why Eva doesn't want anyone to know what happened. Now if the "our confession" booklet actually reveals what happened in Rokkenjima Prime (I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't) then... If the solutions it brings are actually things we could have rationalized you would be entirely right that pursuing the truth of Rokkenjima Prime would be a good thing. If the solutions it brings are things that we couldn't have ever figured out by ourselves then it would remain that all 8 arcs wouldn't have as goal to figure out "prime" I guess that remains to be seen but for now I'm fairly certain we can't because of Will's attitude toward it. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-11-26 at 09:31. |
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2011-11-26, 09:02 | Link #25950 | |
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And that's another thing that doesn't make sense. Erika was so anal about checking this and checking that and she didn't even check the corpses.
But the major problem I have with Ep5 is the issue about shkanon and the scene where everyone is in the same place. The most logical explanation is that the scene we have seen was seen through the unreliable perspective of Battler and therefore he could see Kanon and Shannon in the same place. But there is still a problem. This was supposed to be a game and in a game you need a "witch side" and a "human side". The human side in Ep5 is Bernkastel and her proxy Erika. Erika is also confirmed in red to be the detective, and if the rules aren't completely fucked up Erika, as the detective, should have reliable perspective, meaning that she shouldn't be able to see Shannon and Kanon in the same place at the same time. It was said that what Battler saw was a replay of a game that was already played. So at the time Battler saw that scene where everyone was in the same place at the same time Bernkastel should have noticed a discrepancy between the two versions. Erika in that very scene saw everyone except Kanon (or Shannon) Battler in that very scene saw everyone, no exception. Even if you speculate that Bernkastel just thought Lambda was fucking with him with false informations, there is still the red truth In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island. So there is still a discrepancy between this red truth and the perspective of Erika who never saw Shannon and Kanon at the same place at the same time. Given that it's either that Bernkastel is a complete idiot or she knew about Shkanon all along. With Erika it's a little more complicated, it is possible that she never saw that replay from Battler's perspective, but there's still the red truth. So either Erika wasn't given an important red truth, or (worse of all) she didn't actually have a reliable perpsective!!! Another possibility is that she knew about shkanon, but that would make EP6 ridiculous beyond belief. What remains in the end? Yeah you could say that in Ep5 Shannon and Kanon are actually two separate persons. That would be completely fucked up since it's kind of the core of Beatrice's game, but there is still a bigger problem: Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games. If Kanon and Shannon are two different people in ep5 then the number must have increased by one. You can only fix that if Lambda removed someone else, but then Erika should have still noticed in the scene where everyone was in the same room. Quote:
I guess at least we all agree that on Rokkenjima Prime the main responsible for the massacre isn't Yasu. What we disagree with is whether Yasu had the intention to kill everyone or not. Note that even if I claim that she had the intention to do that, it doesn't necessarily mean that she could do that. For example one person could start with all the intetions to go to his tyrannical boss and give him a piece of him, only to find himself to be unable to do so when face to face. One person could have all the intentions to kill himself by jumping from a scyscraper only to find himself unable to do so once he's up there. I don't know if Yasu could do that or not and I don't care about it that much. What I believe is that she had the intention to do so and she was mad enough for that. But in the end she never had the chance to prove she could live up to her intentions.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-11-26 at 09:16. |
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2011-11-26, 09:21 | Link #25951 |
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Arc 3 has that The 15 people mentioned are dead.
Jessica, Battler and Eva are definitively alive. Kinzo even if dead at the start of every game remains dead, that's fine. But for that count to be right, Shannon and Kanon both count as "dead people" even tho "Yasu" is still alive and not counting for an alive person by the 18 count (unless Battler is right and Yasu killed herself right after killing Nanjo I guess, but it still counts Shannon and Kanon as seperate "dead" people). Arc 6 then says that there are 17 people. I think Kanon and Shannon are always going to be considered "people" as they are pieces of the "human side", even tho they are actually one being. Edit: Ryuukishi's lines about something we can only understand if we have been in love. Not all love stories leads people wanting to murder others, happy love stories exists. That's why I don't think that's what he meant. It was something more vague I think. Suppose we take George. His love of Shannon is making him built up tons of dreams he may or may not be able to ever fulfill. Nonetheless he kept on dreaming about it and kept on polishing it. Love makes one "daydream" about a lot of things. Anyway there is no way that anyone on earth would ever understand simply out of having been/being in love how that could lead you to mass murdering 18 people. Hmm I guess it's more 15 and one suicide. The only thing that compares to that I can think of in our non fictional world is the people who made murder sprees into colleges and schools. I really doubt love was part of any of them's motives either. An idea. Suppose that like shown in the arc 7 Tea Party, Eva doesn't believe "Beatrice" about the bomb clock and ends up activating it while being certain she's deactivating it. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-11-26 at 09:49. |
2011-11-26, 10:53 | Link #25952 |
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Regarding Erika's perception and Shkanon's body in EP5, I swear we just had this discussion. XD
I believe noone was really convinced otherwise, but came down to: 1. The consensus being "Kanon was behind Godha", and Erika didn't see him, which is, in it's way, possible, because Erika doesn't narrate that scene. This maintains Shkanon, and makes Erika a little retarded. 2. I believe Lambda just gave Kanon his own body, which WOULD NOT increase the person count, and it doesn't MATTER that it betrays the point of Beato's game because it ISN'T Beato's game. This saves Erika from being an idiot, and makes Lambda take a new level in Trolling. 3. lol Ryukishi logic |
2011-11-26, 11:41 | Link #25953 | |
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2011-11-26, 12:00 | Link #25954 | ||
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Either way it doesn't make sense, not according to the definition of "sense" I use (and which is commonly used). Right.
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2011-11-26, 12:25 | Link #25955 | |
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"Exactly midnight" is a completely arbitrary concept. In a story, such as the fiction themselves, time is an easily standardized concept. Thus, there is no problem with a bunch of old-timey grandfather clocks all happening to have the exact same time as each other and for "midnight" to fall whenever the author wants it to. However, that certainty only exists in a fictional concept. The bomb Kinzo set up, and the mechanism that governs it, if they actually existed as described in ep7 and ep8, was a real device. A real device has to work in a real way, and is subject to real limitations. So in R-Prime, it's simply a fact that the detonation would have occurred when that particular clock thought it was 00:00 of October 6, 1986. Other clocks in the house may have been different. People's watches may have been different. More to the point, there is no way to verify the exact time of detonation in R-Prime (no observers and no reliable methodology), and further still, there is no way to accurately ascribe an arbitrary time such as "midnight" in the first place. In a story, midnight is a real time that everyone can acknowledge, that red text can bound (as in Erika's alibi determinations), and that all clocks and any associated detonators can be tuned to. And in the stories this is what happens. In R-Prime, it can't have worked that way. At best, the clock was well-tuned and hit midnight at about the same time (within a minute or so) as any well-tuned clock in the region would have. Which of these times was "exactly 00:00" is pointless to wonder about, however, because units of time are arbitrary human constructions.I know you're just kidding, but it sells short the argument that was made there, which basically amounts to: Ryukishi made a mistake with respect to obeying his own rules when two sets of rules interacted in a way that could have led to a contradiction. Specifically, the rule "unreliable narrators can describe things that are not actually present (such as Kanon)" running up against "as the capital-D Detective, Erika's observations are accurate." According to the first of these, the scene is fine; Battler is narrating and Battler is no longer a reliable source. However, Ryukishi appears to have completely ignored the second of these facts, which is that if Erika existed in the room and was capable of observation, she should have a catalog of observed facts from the same scene independent of Battler's own. We in fact now that this is true; Erika summarizes findings she does not narrate in ep5, and the entire meta-narrative twist of the first half of ep6 relies on the fact that Erika can see and do things that the story itself doesn't actually mention. It should not matter what Battler reports; since Erika was also there, Erika is not required to rely upon Battler's testimony to accurately account for every individual she observed, and she has a photographic memory (thus, she should know quite literally every person she saw in exactly the order she saw them). We are therefore led to one of two inescapable conclusions:
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2011-11-26, 14:33 | Link #25956 | |||
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I don't buy this. There are more ways to approach the issue. For instance... I've been thinking: Try to imagine that Erika, even piece-Erika, has only meta-information. Like... she's a reader's projection of herself (AT has described Erika as a "Mary Sue" before, which may even be correct in a fairly literal sense). Remember all that talk between Ange and Featherine about how a different reader makes the story different? Erika's final red of episode 6 was clearly intended to appear contrary to that of Battler and Beatrice; it's a hint about Erika's (and red text's) subjectivity. We have both 18 people and 17 people interpretations stated in red, giving both a measure of legitimacy. It was only the fact that Beatrice "won" the duel that made one interpretation appear more valid than the other. In other words, Erika seeing Kanon and Shannon as separate beings is her interpretation of the story; Piece-Erika does not see them as the same being because Meta-Erika is unable to think of them as the same being. Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-11-26 at 14:52. |
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2011-11-26, 14:46 | Link #25957 | |
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This should apply to meta-interpretations of a non-meta scene, or her reliable viewpoint is absolutely worthless. It's even worse an idea than "Kanon behind Gohda lol."
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2011-11-26, 14:46 | Link #25958 | |||||||
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We can arbitrarily decide that "this is midnight" and then standardize it to every clock of the world. But for the clocks of the worlds to adhere to that standard over the course of days they need to be accurate. If the story tells us (and it does) that the Rokkenjima explosion happened at midnight of this standardized time almost precisely down to the minute, then it had to be a reliable clock. This is my point. Quote:
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The arbitrarity of the concept of "midnight" is absolutely beyond the point of this discussion. I hope this is clear now. Quote:
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If there is the possibility that she could see inexisting things then there is the possibility that she just dreamed about killing Natsuhi and the rest, it's not 100% = it can't be a red truth. This is also one of Ryuukishi's law. It is amazing how many times it happened that people trying to patch up plot holes didn't realize how many other problems (even greater problems sometimes, but not this case) the proposed patch would cause if true. Reminds me the many discussions I had with Chronotrig.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-11-26 at 15:08. |
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2011-11-26, 14:53 | Link #25959 | |
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Your idea is simply unworkable because it's incompatibly recursive: Erika has only meta-knowledge, therefore Erika only sees what she wants to see; yet Erika has perfect observational powers, which means Erika can confirm details which the narrative does not directly allow her to see. You're basically trying to shoehorn Erika's inexplicable ignorance of something she should be aware of into Meta-Erika's inability to interpret the story. While Erika can and does misinterpret the story, she doesn't misperceive details, which is what you're trying to claim here. Essentially you're saying "because Erika doesn't see Shannon and Kanon as the same person, she's capable of concluding they are." I don't disagree with you, but the ep5 parlor scene problem has nothing to do with what you're talking about at all. It's a failure of perception, not a failure of conclusion. The "Kanon was behind Gohda" excuse, lame as it is, is intended to be a failure of conclusion: as Erika never saw Kanon, she just assumed he was somewhere she could not observe. However, she would not simply assume a person exists without cause. And none of that addresses that what Meta-Erika thinks of the narrative has no bearing on the information Piece-Erika would have passed to her. To conclude what you've said would mean that Erika's powers don't work as we're explicitly told they work. So for you to be right, Ryukishi has to be making stuff up again that he actually intends for us to believe are how things work when in fact they don't. EDIT: Jan-Poo, I don't understand what the hell your point is regarding clocks, but you're not actually making any useful points about it.
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2011-11-26, 15:02 | Link #25960 | |
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Is there anyone that got my point about clocks? I want to know if it's me or Renall.
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