Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Spoiler for MoS Possible end:

Well she is in a rather difficult situation, because while she is still at an emotional crossroads, so pushing herself to get the grail at all cost (which what Kotomine is pointing out imo) will be the only way for her to stay sane and keep her from thinking about what she just did.

Now, if my other theory is correct, and Kotomine was just trolling when he said the worm in her heart was not removable without killing her, then here is where things get dicey. Kirei would not fail to take advantage of that, and then we have two generations of trolled Tohsakas. Quite sad indeed.

Like father, like daughter?

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

We know she is doing it out of duty and a sense of obligation.

Exactly. She has no interest in the Grail, she just feels that she has to win it because her father said she had to.

I think it's one reason she was able to work with Shirou so well - neither had a true wish in mind...at least in the beginning.

Well, Rin just wanted to win the Grail, and Shirou just wanted to stop people being harmed. Those two aims were never contradictory, so they could work together easily.

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

Oh, I see. I was under the impression Kirei was implying that she would have an actual reason (a wish) to obtain the grail at that point. I was thinking along the lines of 'save Sakura', but I wasn't sure. What you say does fit Rin's personality, however I'm not sure if she wouldn't come up with a wish in the end.

Nope. It's just that, by killing Sakura, she gave in totally to her sense of duty. If she fails to obtain the Grail, then all the things that she (and her family) sacrificed to do so (including her sister's happiness and even life) were for nothing, which would send her insane.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Exactly. She has no interest in the Grail, she just feels that she has to win it because her father said she had to.



Well, Rin just wanted to win the Grail, and Shirou just wanted to stop people being harmed. Those two aims were never contradictory, so they could work together easily.

Spoiler:

Nope. It's just that, by killing Sakura, she gave in totally to her sense of duty. If she fails to obtain the Grail, then all the things that she (and her family) sacrificed to do so (including her sister's happiness and even life) were for nothing, which would send her insane.

It would be a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' circumstance, for in the end the burden would still eat away at her mind. Rin doesn't have the level of ruthlessness that someone like Tohno Akiha would have in that situation.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by aldw

It would be a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' circumstance, for in the end the burden would still eat away at her mind. Rin doesn't have the level of ruthlessness that someone like Tohno Akiha would have in that situation.

Quite possibly, yes. But, she's still going to feel far worse if all her sacrifices turn out to have been for nothing. She's not supposed to care about Sakura at all, she sees it as betraying her father's wishes to even talk to her. In killing Sakura, she has given in totally to her father's ideal, and therefore must obtain the Grail. If she fails, then she has failed her father and she has failed her sister, which will send her mad.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Quite possibly, yes. But, she's still going to feel far worse if all her sacrifices turn out to have been for nothing. She's not supposed to care about Sakura at all, she sees it as betraying her father's wishes to even talk to her. In killing Sakura, she has given in totally to her father's ideal, and therefore must obtain the Grail. If she fails, then she has failed her father and she has failed her sister, which will send her mad.

It's only a matter of how fast the madness sets in, particularly since the Grail is corrupted any such 'win' would ultimately be meaningless in the end. I believe F/HA would better clarify the Angra Mainyu angle once the translation's completed.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by aldw

It's only a matter of how fast the madness sets in, particularly since the Grail is corrupted any such 'win' would ultimately be meaningless in the end. I believe F/HA would better clarify the Angra Mainyu angle once the translation's completed.

Spoiler for HF:

Eh, well, I think killing one's own sister to justify her duty of protecting the city, and then realizing that it was all for nothing once the true nature of the Grail is uncovered would break even the strongest person. Heck, that's pretty much why Kotomine outright stated Shirou needed to kill Rin before she claimed the Grail, so the chances of her going mad and becoming a threat wouldn't come to pass.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

Spoiler for HF:

Eh, well, I think killing one's own sister to justify her duty of protecting the city, and then realizing that it was all for nothing once the true nature of the Grail is uncovered would break even the strongest person. Heck, that's pretty much why Kotomine outright stated Shirou needed to kill Rin before she claimed the Grail, so the chances of her going mad and becoming a threat wouldn't come to pass.

This is why Shirou's approach, like Suiseiseki in Rozen Maiden (or the infamous Captain Kirk), would ultimately be the right action because instead of playing a rigged game they decide to change things completely.

Spoiler for AM:

Since any wish on the Grail=destruction, yeah that would be a definite threat indeed.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by aldw

This is why Shirou's approach, like Suiseiseki in Rozen Maiden (or the infamous Captain Kirk), would ultimately be the right action because instead of playing a rigged game they decide to change things completely.

Spoiler for AM:

Since any wish on the Grail=destruction, yeah that would be a definite threat indeed.

Spoiler for MoS:

Yeah, but it's supposed to be bad that Shirou was driven to that in the first place. That's the whole reason why Kotomine praises you, because at the core it's not the "right" thing; sure, Shirou saves people and prevents destruction, but he has to kill two other mostly innocent people in the process who would have never been put into that situation if he had decided to save Sakura instead.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

Spoiler for MoS:

Yeah, but it's supposed to be bad that Shirou was driven to that in the first place. That's the whole reason why Kotomine praises you, because at the core it's not the "right" thing; sure, Shirou saves people and prevents destruction, but he has to kill two other mostly innocent people in the process who would have never been put into that situation if he had decided to save Sakura instead.

Spoiler for MoS:

Of course, Kotomine is holding all the cards, which is why you have to try to keep a level head and not decide, "this is for the best" until your options completely run dry. Since this is not "saving people" either the first choice to kill her or the last choice, once you see everything for what it was, congregating together to form a solution rather than falling for Kotomine and Zouken's tricks, and running around like chickens with their heads cut off(which ultimately only served to give them more stress) is the absolute best choice to any rash action.

[Wigwams]

hey can someone tell me how they replaced the H scenes in the non-H version of FSN? instead of doing it, what did they do?

[willyvereb]

Prana transfer.
Let's see:
In Fate - CG Dragon aka. Magic Circuit transfer. Same as the anime
In UBW - creating a Ley Line without the H-stuff. Often called CG Fish
In HF - Sakura sucking blood with the weak explanation the worms being hungry of blood and making Sakura want it. It mellows down Sakura's background of abuse(no mention of rape) and so the fans don't like it.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

In HF - Sakura sucking blood with the weak explanation the worms being hungry of blood and making Sakura want it. It mellows down Sakura's background of abuse(no mention of rape) and so the fans don't like it.

I like the idea of worms making you horny far less so it works for me...

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Prana transfer.
Let's see:
In Fate - CG Dragon aka. Magic Circuit transfer. Same as the anime
In UBW - creating a Ley Line without the H-stuff. Often called CG Fish
In HF - Sakura sucking blood with the weak explanation the worms being hungry of blood and making Sakura want it. It mellows down Sakura's background of abuse(no mention of rape) and so the fans don't like it.

The dragon and fish were in the PS2 game as well?

And there is a patch out that makes it all the same as the PS2 game.

Originally Posted by Haak

I like the idea of worms making you horny far less so it works for me...

Agreed. There were quite a few things in HF that didn't sit well with me. So much rage.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Haak

I like the idea of worms making you horny far less so it works for me...

The thing is, that at least makes some form of logical sense. Sakura needing to suck blood doesn't, and further the sex scenes in HF are actually important for her character development. Sucking Shirou's blood simply doesn't have the same intimacy level that having sex with him does, and I can't imagine him going "I'm not too tired to have Sakura suck my blood", so she doesn't gain the boost in confidence that comes from recognising that Shirou actually wants her. Further, with the rape removed, there is no longer any good reason for her to kill Shinji (from her viewpoint), because she would never do such a thing solely to protect herself, no matter what he did to her (she'd probably have happily let him beat her to death rather than killing him herself, especially since she went there to confront Zouken and (likely) die and, further, she would lack the sense of self-worth that comes from Shirou actually wanting her).

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

And there is a patch out that makes it all the same as the PS2 game.

Not yet. There is a patch which adds the RN CGs, but it doesn't add the RN alternate sex scenes.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Not yet. There is a patch which adds the RN CGs, but it doesn't add the RN alternate sex scenes.

Hmm...they are still working on it it seems. Everyone bookmark it: http://rnpatch.blogspot.com. Although, the only reason to use that patch is for curiosity since they everything is best in it's original form - the way it was meant to be presented.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

The thing is, that at least makes some form of logical sense. Sakura needing to suck blood doesn't, and further the sex scenes in HF are actually important for her character development. Sucking Shirou's blood simply doesn't have the same intimacy level that having sex with him does, and I can't imagine him going "I'm not too tired to have Sakura suck my blood", so she doesn't gain the boost in confidence that comes from recognising that Shirou actually wants her. Further, with the rape removed, there is no longer any good reason for her to kill Shinji (from her viewpoint), because she would never do such a thing solely to protect herself, no matter what he did to her (she'd probably have happily let him beat her to death rather than killing him herself, especially since she went there to confront Zouken and (likely) die and, further, she would lack the sense of self-worth that comes from Shirou actually wanting her).

Actually I can see Shirou letting Sakura suck her blood as having some sort of intimacy that would give her a confidence boost. As for her reason to kill Shinji...well I dunno about that. The way I saw it, the real reason she killed Shinji was because of a stray evil thought that just happened to have popped up in her head because of her dilemna. They could've easily just made it happen spontaneously instead. That would've worked just as well for me. What was the reason in the censored game?

Anyway I'm not against the sex per se. I'm against the worms making her horny. Shirou could've simply had sex with Sakura to comfort her. Shinji could've simply raped Sakura because he's an asshole (which was half the reason anyway).

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Haak

Actually I can see Shirou letting Sakura suck her blood as having some sort of intimacy that would give her a confidence boost.

Not really, because if some random person off the street needed to suck his blood to survive, he would let them do it too. Hell, Sakura's confidence is so low that she doesn't even recognise that Shirou genuinely wants to have sex with her (as opposed to just doing it because it's the only way she can get prana and, thus, not hurt people) until the third time around. Without her realising that he is doing it because he actually wants her as opposed to out of a sense of duty, she does not gain the confidence necessary to stand up to Shinji, and thus the Shinji death scene does not happen.

As for her reason to kill Shinji...well I dunno about that. The way I saw it, the real reason she killed Shinji was because of a stray evil thought that just happened to have popped up in her head because of her dilemna. They could've easily just made it happen spontaneously instead. That would've worked just as well for me.

Except that that destroys the whole point of the scene, and is OOC for Sakura. For a start, I would say that thinking "I wish he were dead" when someone is raping you (or beating you to within an inch of your life and posssibly intending to kill you) is not actually an evil thought at all. It is a perfectly natural thought to have, and one that most ordinary people would (quite justifiably) possess in such a scenario, so it says nothing much about her mental state.

However, it is not a thought that Sakura would ever actually have, because she genuinely does not care about herself (at least not enough to kill Shinji in self-defense). The whole of the Shinji death scene in the PC version was about Shirou. She refused Shinji raping her because she was in a relationship with Shirou and she killed Shinji because she was worried that otherwise Shirou would do so when Shinji came to tell him about what he'd done to Sakura in the past. If Shinji is beating the shit out of her, as in RN, then that is no different from what has happened hundreds of times before and there is no reason to stand up for herself. She's used to it, so she would just lie there and take the beating.

What was the reason in the censored game?

I'm not sure, but probably what you said (just a "stray evil thought").

Anyway I'm not against the sex per se. I'm against the worms making her horny.

Well, it's not nice, no, but then nothing about Sakura's situation is nice. The worms live off her prana, and since having sex provides prana (and since they are lust worms), it makes sense that they enhance her sex drive.

Shirou could've simply had sex with Sakura to comfort her.

Well, in general, the correct response to "oh, shit, I just found out the girl I love has been raped and sexually tortured from the age of four" is not, in fact "oh, I know, in order to comfort her, I'll have sex with her", so Shirou would not come on to her in such a situation. She clearly has to initiate it, and without the excuse of needing prana due to the worms she would not have the confidence to do so.

Shinji could've simply raped Sakura because he's an asshole (which was half the reason anyway).

Honestly, I'm pretty sure that was the whole reason. Whilst the worms do increase her sexual desire, I don't think she is actually unable to survive without sex (she is fine post-Fate and post-UBW, for instance), and I can't imagine that Sakura would have wanted Shinji to rape her.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Honestly, I'm pretty sure that was the whole reason. Whilst the worms do increase her sexual desire, I don't think she is actually unable to survive without sex (she is fine post-Fate and post-UBW, for instance), and I can't imagine that Sakura would have wanted Shinji to rape her.

She would masturbate to alleviate any sexual stress. Shinji may have been told to do it for that reason, but it all just came down to keeping him under control and stuff.

And I don't think you can want to be raped...then it isn't rape, right?

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

And I don't think you can want to be raped...then it isn't rape, right?

Well, you can always participate in a rape fantasy if both partners are comfortable and trust each other, which could fall under "wanting to be raped" even though technically, it wouldn't be rape.

[Moczo]

"So help me, I'm going to rape you!"

"All right, but if I help you it won't be rape."


... I'm sorry, I'll go sit in the corner now.


EDIT: Pageclaim for jokes that are in poor taste?