Why don't "normal" people like otaku anime?

[calorie]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

(Weirdly, while I loved Kanon 2006, I disliked Kyoto's version of Air when I first saw it almost immediately after. I like it now, but it took me a long time to come around and I still have some issues with it.)

It was the same for me, and I also watched it straight after Kanon (2006), prior to which I had seen CLANNAD. What I do remember is that at that time, I was constantly looking for a "justification" of what could become my permanent hobby, and while CLANNAD and Kanon (2006) were quite easy to watch and coupled with huge emotional impact, have greatly changed my perspective on anime, there were still parts that bothered me (as they probably would the average "normal" person who isn't into anime), I just tried to overlook them.

With AIR however, the common archetypes and lack of character development were much more easily noticeable and I can now see why the "past me" could have been bothered by that. After some time and more anime under my belt I realized I actually still liked AIR - but it was only after I stopped trying to deny that there are certain things about anime which I didn't like, such as the catering of otaku fetishism, and focusing on what I did like, rather than idealizing this form of entertainment as a whole and comparing it to movies or books from a literary standpoint. Of course, now I actually enjoy a lot of the otaku specific humor, tropes and types of anime I had never thought I would, though I still frown at anything pervertedly sexual.

[Kyuu]

Hmm. I find OP's use of the terminology to be bothersome.

I consider myself to be a "normal" person, even though I can be outright insane from time-to-time. But as far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as an "otaku" anime. You'd have to be delusional to even consider that.

Originally Posted by DasDingus

I would like to add that I think a lot of what is going on here is based simply on definition of terms.

And another thing: fandom for anime is so hellbent on using so many terms and labels, it's even more annoying. For example, how many "-dere" terms are there now?

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Tempester

There is so much in this thread that I'm interested to talk about, but I'm too lazy to write a monstrous post so I'll just post this talk between Taketatsu Ayana and Hanazawa Kana:

Originally Posted by calorie

With AIR however, the common archetypes and lack of character development were much more easily noticeable and I can now see why the "past me" could have been bothered by that. After some time and more anime under my belt I realized I actually still liked AIR - but it was only after I stopped trying to deny that there are certain things about anime which I didn't like, such as the catering of otaku fetishism, and focusing on what I did like, rather than idealizing this form of entertainment as a whole and comparing it to movies or books from a literary standpoint. Of course, now I actually enjoy a lot of the otaku specific humor, tropes and types of anime I had never thought I would, though I still frown at anything pervertedly sexual.

Hmmm... so I wasn't the only one who felt Air's character development and archtypes were grating. Which I think is what really killed it for me until recently - I feel that for the story to really have its proper impact, one needs to see Misuzu as this loveable, innocent "too good for this sinful earth" kind of essence. And I feel that in Key's version, her verbal tic and a few other traits are really obnoxious and get in the way of that essence. The movie is a lot better about this and is probably part of what made me eventually made me come to like the character/story.

Kanon and Clannad had obnoxious character quirks too - a reason I have mixed feelings on Ayu and Fuko just as I did with Misuzu - but they're smoothed out a bit by less quirky characters. Even Makoto isn't so bad quirk wise IMO. Tends to make the shows more accessible for outsiders than Air IMO, even if some people still can't get around the characterization.

[Marcus H.]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

how many "-dere" terms are there now?

^ Ten?

Anyway, I really think the culture of anime has become too diverse that merely grouping things with others is not enough to identify them as such. Well, there is the classic Lum-type tsundere, the Haruhi-type tsundere, the Hitagi Senjougahara-style *-dere... Oh dear.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

So I can add being called a stupid pervert by a girl I'm close to to my list of otaku feats now.

It's like in anime! And now you realize that your girlfriend is like Kirino all of a sudden.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

Hmm. I find OP's use of the terminology to be bothersome.

I consider myself to be a "normal" person, even though I can be outright insane from time-to-time. But as far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as an "otaku" anime. You'd have to be delusional to even consider that.

Quite the opposite actually- there's no such thing as a 'Normal' person I've never met a normal person in my life so far.

I don't know what is your definition of "otaku" anime, but you have to be delusional to deny that some shows have rather eccentric appeals that are not for the fainthearted.

Originally Posted by Kyuu

And another thing: fandom for anime is so hellbent on using so many terms and labels, it's even more annoying. For example, how many "-dere" terms are there now?

Well nobody's forcing you to learn them. I myself don't know any more than the top three and I don't find myself or many others having problems conversing with the more dedicated individuals.

But like Marcus said, the culture of Anime has become too diverse.

[calorie]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Hmmm... so I wasn't the only one who felt Air's character development and archtypes were grating. Which I think is what really killed it for me until recently - I feel that for the story to really have its proper impact, one needs to see Misuzu as this loveable, innocent "too good for this sinful earth" kind of essence. And I feel that in Key's version, her verbal tic and a few other traits are really obnoxious and get in the way of that essence. The movie is a lot better about this and is probably part of what made me eventually made me come to like the character/story.

So the movie isn't bad? Maybe I should watch it then. What changed my mind about AIR is seeing how much my sister liked Misuzu as a character, and selectively re-watching parts of episodes with her. Just looking at her story and not the other underdeveloped characters made me realize she isn't any worse of a character than Ayu or Fuko who happen to be my #1 and #2 favorites. And I don't know about the annoying traits you've mentioned...guess they weren't prominent enough to get in my way (but I can imagine what those might have been for others).

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Quite the opposite actually- there's no such thing as a 'Normal' person I've never met a normal person in my life so far.

But there are undoubtedly those who are less normal

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I don't know what is your definition of "otaku" anime, but you have to be delusional to deny that some shows have rather eccentric appeals that are not for the fainthearted.

Indeed.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

I just thought about this recently when I was over a friends house, but it's really difficult for me to understand why "normal" people don't like "otaku" anime. When I say otaku anime, I mean shows like Steins;Gate, TB, Anohana, Madoka, etc. I can show my friends Naruto or Bleach and they'll watch it all day but if I try to get them to watch TB or Death Note they don't want to. I mean, the plots are better, the characters are better developed, animation quality is higher, etc etc. It just boggles my mind why these shows can't appeal to normal people, in America at least. I mean, do most people just find watching a cartoon for actual plot not enjoyable?

By "normal people", do you mean those who only watch anime that were presented to them on TV? Like this husband of my coworker and her family. For example, they thought the Kyubey hat I was wearing is a character from Sailormoon, and the husband thought Sayaka (from Madoka Magica) is a character from Samurai X. It leads to some severely awkward situations, espescially when the wife (who is my coworker) actually thinks I'll be glad to talk with her husband about anime.

It's fortunate that there's another otaku at my workplace. She also had a same situation as me when someone thought she's laughing at Mazinger Z when she's actually watching Ore no Imouto on her portable DVD player (the person did not look at what anime she's watching) ..

Sorry about what seems like a rant, just want to confirm if we are both in the same line of thought about "normal people". They probably think anime is just a simple show meant to entertain children.

[ahelo]

Personally based on my experience, those shounen anime you mentioned of are anime that are very easy to get into. It has this addictive style, like most shounen series, and I admit even I was entranced by it for a while. They're not popular for nothing.

Also based on my experience as someone who tries to make someone watch anime, I usually let them watch something a bit longer in length, a bit more common, and a bit more popular. It's stupid that I have to this, but. . . it works.

People don't like thinking too much.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I've actually heard AnoHana was a hit with people outside the core otaku demographic in Japan, which surprised me - I mean, the show struck me as a Key anime with some sensibilities borrowed from shows like True Tears and Toradora to combat some of the common flaws of Key's work. Certainly I don't see it appealing to mainstream western audiences much.

AnoHana was probably a hit outside of "otaku" because it's very similiar to JDrama, which are of course very mainstream popular in Japan. AnoHana has big heaps of melodrama which Japanese audiences just gobble up.

In the west melodrama is ... less popular.

[Zenemis]

Originally Posted by ahelo

Personally based on my experience, those shounen anime you mentioned of are anime that are very easy to get into. It has this addictive style, like most shounen series, and I admit even I was entranced by it for a while. They're not popular for nothing.

Also based on my experience as someone who tries to make someone watch anime, I usually let them watch something a bit longer in length, a bit more common, and a bit more popular. It's stupid that I have to this, but. . . it works.

People don't like thinking too much.

Are you sure it's safe to assume that people with different tastes, are less intellectually inclined?

Those who would comment in a positive or even neutral manner on what you're watching, are just trying to be friendly.

It's easy to dismiss others as ignorant or as simpletons, but who's right when everyone says it?

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

It's like in anime! And now you realize that your girlfriend is like Kirino all of a sudden.

My girlfriend has far more dere than Kirino.

IIRC she also recommended Ore no Imouto to her brother as a joke. Then he actually watched it.

Originally Posted by calorie

So the movie isn't bad? Maybe I should watch it then. What changed my mind about AIR is seeing how much my sister liked Misuzu as a character, and selectively re-watching parts of episodes with her. Just looking at her story and not the other underdeveloped characters made me realize she isn't any worse of a character than Ayu or Fuko who happen to be my #1 and #2 favorites. And I don't know about the annoying traits you've mentioned...guess they weren't prominent enough to get in my way (but I can imagine what those might have been for others).

In spite of all I’ve heard about Toei’s versions of Kanon and Clannad being terrible, the Air movie was actually decent. It’s a looser and less visually impressive adaptation than the TV series, but in a way it ends up being a bit of a case of adaptation distillation.

To me, what makes the Kanon/Air/Clannad trio classics is the emotions they evoke. Just look at the core plots of Kanon and Air:

Spoiler for Kanon, Air:

Kanon is about a guy getting reunited with a childhood friend in a coma via a projection of her. Air is about a guy tracking down a cursed girl and then essentially sacrifices himself to break the curse and allow her a proper reincarnation.

That’s some beautiful and emotionally poignant stuff, which has nothing to do with Uguu or Gao or the various other Keyisms that a lot of people associate with Key. As fun and iconic as some of those Keyisms are, they’re clutter. And while my opinion is that while the slow pacing and first person perspective makes it easy for VN players to see around the “clutter” in a work, I don’t think that’s true of anime adaptations.

The Air movie removes most of that clutter, distilled Misuzu to the essence of her character, and hence helped me “get” what Air was about. Not to say the Kyoto version lacks appeals (the “Air in Summer” OVAs they did are my favourite part of the entire Air franchise), but I didn’t get "Air" the first time I saw their version.

I personally found Fuko and Ayu too quirky, and I suspect many newcomers feel the same way (ditto for Misuzu). Other Key characters, such as Kanon’s Mai, strike me as more accessible. I certainly remember liking Mai and her story a lot in Kanon – one reason I consider it more newbie friendly than Air.

(For reference, my favourite Air character is Minagi – didn’t care much for her storyline, but I love her placid mannerisms for some reason. Favourite Key character overall would be Kotomi, other favourites would include Clannad’s Kyou and Kanon’s Mai and Makoto (who I actually also found a more accessible character than Ayu). And of course, Akiko is arguably the best anime MILF ever.)

[DasDingus]

Originally Posted by Zenemis

Are you sure it's safe to assume that people with different tastes, are less intellectually inclined?

Those who would comment in a positive or even neutral manner on what you're watching, are just trying to be friendly.

It's easy to dismiss others as ignorant or as simpletons, but who's right when everyone says it?

I think (hope) what ahelo is getting at is that if somebody isn't really interested in something, they aren't going to work particularly hard to like it. It's not that they are intellectually incapable of putting forth the effort to understand and appreciate something outside of their comfort zone. Instead, it's that they don't feel compelled to put forth that effort.

[Zenemis]

Originally Posted by DasDingus

I think (hope) what ahelo is getting at is that if somebody isn't really interested in something, they aren't going to work particularly hard to like it. It's not that they are intellectually incapable of putting forth the effort to understand and appreciate something outside of their comfort zone. Instead, it's that they don't feel compelled to put forth that effort.

You're absolutely right, but I feel that it goes both ways - it just stems from laziness inherent in most (all?) people.

Someone might ask you to watch a soccer match that was tactically brilliant and full of great plays (I'm clueless about soccer) - you might watch for a while, really enjoy it, and start watching and follow the sport. Or, you might get bored quickly, and switch to something that you're more familiar with, with familiar things being easier to digest/more enjoyable when you're feeling a bit less than adventurous.

It is usually more difficult to enjoy things that are quite different to what you're used to; Anime has it's "rules" based on Japanese culture. Sports has it's rules, based on... rules. These rules generally define what is the middle ground, the expected outcomes, and once you're familiar with that, you can begin to appreciate the finer points of whatever you're participating in.

This is why I believe "gateway" anime, (and that differs depending on who you're showing them to) are so important. It's not feasible to try to get someone new to the medium to appreciate shows like "Madoka Magica" or "Lucky Star", when it's generally targeted towards people already familiar with the genres.

On the other hand, showing "Death Note" to someone who watches shows like "NCIS"/"CSI", or showing a "Grey's Anatomy" viewer a repeating clip of a orangutan cartwheeling is likely to be a much more natural transition, and much more enjoyable - you generally need something familiar, and something new to really get into different things.

[OtakuAsh]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

1) There's no accounting for taste. Some shows, and even some entire genres, really are an acquired taste, and not everybody is going to like them, regardless of quality level in a general sense. Most of us here probably have at least one or two widely highly regarded "otaku shows" that we don't like. I myself was not particularly fond of Elfen Lied, for example, as its level of gore is simply not for me. Elfen Lied might be a very high quality show in general, but the level of gore in it was an almost instant turn-off for me. It's possible that some shows you introduce to your friends will have an element or two in them that are complete "deal-breakers" like that. From your perspective it will be understandably unfortunate, but from their perspective, it may be a perfectly legitimate taste issue.

Wow, I didnt find Elfen Lied to be that gory... although Higurashi was hard to handle...

[Chiibi]

Probably because it's too sophisticated for their brains to comprehend.

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Probably because it's too sophisticated for their brains to comprehend.

Most mediums and genres have a high degree of sophistication in their best works. It just matters how well-adapted you are to that medium or genre.

If someone can't appreciate the musical creations of Ludwig van Beethoven, they might indeed be too dumb to comprehend it, but it's much more likely that they simply aren't used to Beethoven's style of music. The same naturally applies to anime and manga.

I myself am in the process of very slowly breaking into the literature medium, partially thanks to the help of a relative who is quite a bookworm. It gets extremely frustrating at times to keep up with long-winded narratives and obscure vocabulary, but I try my best to suck it up and I eventually enjoy most of what I read.

[Calca]

Otaku anime? You say they like Naruto and Bleach, that is widespread.

However, I am surprised Death Note is not an anime they like considering it has a very large following here.

Basically, by your definition "otaku" anime is anime that is not shown on Adult Swim or a major network it seems.

It seems to me like your friends consider action shows okay and shows like Clannad or K-On otaku.

If they don't like that type, just watch stuff like Code Geass and stuff like that with them. Even people who hate anime are known to like Code Geass.

[ahelo]

Originally Posted by Zenemis

Are you sure it's safe to assume that people with different tastes, are less intellectually inclined?

Those who would comment in a positive or even neutral manner on what you're watching, are just trying to be friendly.

It's easy to dismiss others as ignorant or as simpletons, but who's right when everyone says it?

Lol what I meant was the general consensus, most people, don't like to think when watching anything. It really is a, "It's boring if there's too much talking" there.

What I also meant was that if you wanted to convert a non-anime fan into an anime fan, start with the basics. Popular, longer, shounen anime are a lot easier to get into if your not an anime fan unlike let's say. . . Steins;Gate or Madoka. Then after that start choosing more limitedly.

Kinda like this:

Bleach -> FMA/Soul Eater -> Code Geass/Death Note -> Toradora/Angel Beats (they start understanding anime tropes and terms here) -> Steins;Gate/Madoka

Just an example.

Also I'm not stupid enough to not know if the people I'm watching with like/or not like what they are watching.I wasn't dismissing everyone as simpletons and less intellectual, but everyone has to start somewhere.And I never said that people with different tastes are less intellectually inclined.

I think (hope) what ahelo is getting at is that if somebody isn't really interested in something, they aren't going to work particularly hard to like it. It's not that they are intellectually incapable of putting forth the effort to understand and appreciate something outside of their comfort zone. Instead, it's that they don't feel compelled to put forth that effort.

Exactly. I get what Zenemis is saying though, that people might just be pretending to like something when they don't. But people I'm with tend to be frank and would tell me immediately if they liked it or not.

[Liddo-kun]

What I also meant was that if you wanted to convert a non-anime fan into an anime fan, start with the basics. Popular, longer, shounen anime are a lot easier to get into if your not an anime fan unlike let's say. . . Steins;Gate or Madoka. Then after that start choosing more limitedly.

@Ahelo

I do agree with that. Go step by step.
But sometimes there's the luck that certain people would appreciate an "otaku anime". Just recently (approx. 1 month ago), a niece (not an otaku) of another one of my coworkers watched my cd's of Madoka Magica and liked it. Though it might be because she's comfortable watching girls because she goes to an all-girls school.

[bhl88]

I got someone to watch Lucky Star but she's not an otaku.