Shakugan no Shana III - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll [FINALE]

[zero7090]

a sequel in Xanadul when the johanxphele baby grow up would be nice

[virox]

I'm annoyed, there were so many people who watched the first subbed version that came out and are now confused about so many things, it's not even funny...
Go and watch the subbed version of the second group, will you?

Mistranslations:
1. Group: "You became a real human"
2. Group: "He's an actual existence"
The second group is correct. I will explain using the next mistranslation example:

1. Group: "I carved a spell into that ring"
2. Group: "I modified a spell I put into this ring a long time ago"
This is the second example. Leanan-sidhe, the Corpse Retriever Lamies weaved this spell and put it into the ring WAY BEFORE Friagne got his hands on the ring. Friagne then tried to activate the spell, using PoE that he wanted to gather with "City Devourer", so that he can give his doll Rinne Marianne an independent existence.
That's why the mistranslation is bad. It connects to the first one, and shows that the spell that got activated through the kiss was the one Friagne wanted to use in the very first arc, and it was not one to make him human again. Yuuji will live forever.

1. Group: "Because of the clumsy you" (or something, I'm not quoting literally.)
2. Group: "What a horrible portrait of mine"
This is the third and last error I can tell, because I didn't even watch all of the first group's version. Leanan-sidhe wasn't talking to Yuuji when she left. She was looking at the painting and said the above words. With Group 1's version, people are left clueless why a piece of wood is so important to her.



Anyway, this much from me, I will try to correct people's misunderstanding as good as I can, and I hope I've at least reached a few of the 20k+ downloaders of the 1. Group's version.

[alvinkhorfire]

As a follow-up to virox's post about Leanan-sidhe, I shall now present a background story about the Corpse Retriever, courtesy of cnnydz.

Leanan-sidhe fell in love with a painter who also loved her. One day her partner saw her consuming humans and was scared. She was confused by this (she didn't know this was a bad thing to do) and run away. Later, she was captured by a powerful guze no ou who locked her in a little cage (u can see the cage from the picture) and made a hougu out of her and called it the Nachtigall. She used this hougu to create many unrestricted methods (this is actually lamies's talent). Later, it was acquired by Asiz and used it to create the city devouring (i think, but i am not sure) and the method of creating a child between a tomogara and a human. After Azis is defeated, she was released but she found out her lover has already died of old age. She later learned that he has always loved her and has drawn a picture of her, unfortunately the painting is broken beyond repair.

However, she has created a unrestricted method which can reverse time and retore the painting. It requires huge amounts of POE, so she started to collect torches hoping that one day she will have enough POE to restore the painting.

And, Fuzetsu was created by her, before this flame hazes and tomogara fought without fuzetsu (therefore tomogaras and the truth of the world was known to many people).

[SRanger]

I haven't watched season 3, but man has this plot gone wacko.

Also, from what I'm hearing...3 seasons of romantic tension..just for a kiss?! that's it? nothing more?

[Senshigeia]

Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire

As a follow-up to virox's post about Leanan-sidhe, I shall now present a background story about the Corpse Retriever, courtesy of cnnydz.

«Leanan-sidhe fell in love with a painter who also loved her. One day her partner saw her consuming humans and was scared. She was confused by this (she didn't know this was a bad thing to do) and run away. Later, she was captured by a powerful guze no ou who locked her in a little cage (u can see the cage from the picture) and made a hougu out of her and called it the Nachtigall. She used this hougu to create many unrestricted methods (this is actually lamies's talent). Later, it was acquired by Asiz and used it to create the city devouring (i think, but i am not sure) and the method of creating a child between a tomogara and a human. After Azis is defeated, she was released but she found out her lover has already died of old age. She later learned that he has always loved her and has drawn a picture of her, unfortunately the painting is broken beyond repair.

However, she has created a unrestricted method which can reverse time and retore the painting. It requires huge amounts of POE, so she started to collect torches hoping that one day she will have enough POE to restore the painting.

And, Fuzetsu was created by her, before this flame hazes and tomogara fought without fuzetsu (therefore tomogaras and the truth of the world was known to many people).»

That is actually beautiful... I didn't know Lamies' background, and I was puzzled about that painting. We really should have volume X animated, even just a lil' OVA!!

EDIT:

Originally Posted by virox

I'm annoyed, there were so many people who watched the first subbed version that came out and are now confused about so many things, it's not even funny...
Go and watch the subbed version of the second group, will you?

Mistranslations:
1. Group: "You became a real human"
2. Group: "He's an actual existence"
The second group is correct. I will explain using the next mistranslation example:

1. Group: "I carved a spell into that ring"
2. Group: "I modified a spell I put into this ring a long time ago"
This is the second example. Leanan-sidhe, the Corpse Retriever Lamies weaved this spell and put it into the ring WAY BEFORE Friagne got his hands on the ring. Friagne then tried to activate the spell, using PoE that he wanted to gather with "City Devourer", so that he can give his doll Rinne Marianne an independent existence.
That's why the mistranslation is bad. It connects to the first one, and shows that the spell that got activated through the kiss was the one Friagne wanted to use in the very first arc, and it was not one to make him human again. Yuuji will live forever.

1. Group: "Because of the clumsy you" (or something, I'm not quoting literally.)
2. Group: "What a horrible portrait of mine"
This is the third and last error I can tell, because I didn't even watch all of the first group's version. Leanan-sidhe wasn't talking to Yuuji when she left. She was looking at the painting and said the above words. With Group 1's version, people are left clueless why a piece of wood is so important to her.



Anyway, this much from me, I will try to correct people's misunderstanding as good as I can, and I hope I've at least reached a few of the 20k+ downloaders of the 1. Group's version.

Thank you for listing the errors, though the only one I haven't seen was the third one, though the "clumsy" reason was a little odd to me from the beginning... :S

[Manic]

Also, from what I'm hearing...3 seasons of romantic tension..just for a kiss?! that's it? nothing more?

what more do ya want, they said they loved each other and are going to spend eternity or damn near close to it together and shared a kiss. I suppose it would have been nice to see her grow up a bit, it would suck being a loli forever

[SRanger]

Originally Posted by Manic

what more do ya want, they said they loved each other and are going to spend eternity or damn near close to it together and shared a kiss. I suppose it would have been nice to see her grow up a bit, it would suck being a loli forever

unless Yuji's into that type of thing..haha. I'm a little bit surprised by the positive feedback from here; for the most part people are hardcore hating on the Shana anime series and how JC royally fucked up.

[Senshigeia]

Originally Posted by Manic

what more do ya want, they said they loved each other and are going to spend eternity or damn near close to it together and shared a kiss. I suppose it would have been nice to see her grow up a bit, it would suck being a loli forever

I don't think she could grow, or I don't think she will grow any centimeter in the rest of her life: she is a Flame Haze, her body "freezed" growing when she made her contract. Or at least this is what I think. So yeah.... loli forever.

[Ec1ge]

Originally Posted by Senshigeia

I don't think she could grow, or I don't think she will grow any centimeter in the rest of her life: she is a Flame Haze, her body "freezed" growing when she made her contract. Or at least this is what I think. So yeah.... loli forever.

What about Yuji? He may be an actual existance and slightly Tomogara, but I'm pretty sure he can grow.

Same goes with Shana.

[HayashiTakara]

Was anyone else happy that Hirai came back to life? Her "death" was so sad, Yuji's struggle to keep her alive in the beginning was heart wrenching.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Was anyone else happy that Hirai came back to life? Her "death" was so sad, Yuji's struggle to keep her alive in the beginning was heart wrenching.

Yes, I was very happy about it. You can read my full take here.

[virox]

Originally Posted by Ec1ge

What about Yuji? He may be an actual existance and slightly Tomogara, but I'm pretty sure he can grow.

Same goes with Shana.

Nah, they both ceased to be human. Since they are immortal (as in, will not die of old age (as said in the first season)), it is a given that they don't age either. I mean, if they'd age, that would also mean they will die eventually. And I'm pretty sure it was said that Flame Hazes are immortal, just like a torch that never runs out, what Yuuji was, and from which he upgraded.
I wonder how that works for Tomogara though. I mean, Alastor seems to be immortal, too.
But what about Justus? Potential Plothole? Will he age until a certain point and then stop? Even though the Shana-wiki says Tomogara can reproduce naturally, I've never actually seen any evidence... But if they can, how do the babies age? So many questions.
Can Yuuji teach Shana how to make babies? Well, of course he can, haha, but will it bear any fruits?
The concept of being immortal is really hard to handle, I wonder if the author ever gave any answer to stuff like that...

[Deathscyther]

Originally Posted by Ec1ge

What about Yuji? He may be an actual existance and slightly Tomogara, but I'm pretty sure he can grow.

Same goes with Shana.

Originally Posted by virox

Nah, they both ceased to be human. Since they are immortal (as in, will not die of old age (as said in the first season)), it is a given that they don't age either. I mean, if they'd age, that would also mean they will die eventually. And I'm pretty sure it was said that Flame Hazes are immortal, just like a torch that never runs out, what Yuuji was, and from which he upgraded.
I wonder how that works for Tomogara though. I mean, Alastor seems to be immortal, too.

Shana won't grow. If flame haze were able to grow, then Khamsin would have grown during all those years. He was one of the eldest flame haze after all, but he still looked like a little boy.

Flame haze are humans who have given up their existence to make a pact with a king of guze. Flame haze remain in the bodies they had as a human (since they can bleed), but their 'time' is stopped. Basically the human 'dies' but the soul lives on. When the pact with the king of guze is made, the body seems to get an ability which stops the aging of the body. The body has to stop aging or else the body would start rotting after so many years after all. That's not really practical for flame hazes who are supposed to be around for hundreds and maybe thousands of years.

As for Yuji, his real body is already gone. His real body was devoured and converted to PoE by one of Friagne's rinne. He was living in the body of a torch, a body made out of PoE. If I remember correctly, I thought that Yuji asked Shana if he was able to age as a torch back in season 1. And I thought that Shana said something like 'you'll find out after a while' so I guess that she didn't know either. It's not like other torches were able to survive long enough to find out after all.

Spiral Organ's spell made him a 'real existence', but in the end his body hasn't been restored. Hirai was able to be restored because Shana still had her torch. Technically Yuji could have restored himself using Spiral Organ's spell as well, but he chose not to because he needs time. He might need hundreds/thousands of years to fullfill his goal. And only after that he'd be able to be with Shana. So restoring himself won't be an option, since he'd die sooner than later.

Spiral Organ knew about Yuji's wish to be with Shana (since he made it so that the spell activated with a kiss), so he wouldn't make Yuji mortal again. He said 'it will help your worn out body' when he told Yuji about the spell, so in the end I think that Spiral Organ gave Yuji a 'real' body like a flame haze that doesn't age, so that he can be with Shana.

Originally Posted by virox

But what about Justus? Potential Plothole? Will he age until a certain point and then stop? Even though the Shana-wiki says Tomogara can reproduce naturally, I've never actually seen any evidence... But if they can, how do the babies age? So many questions.

Justus is half human, so I'm guessing that he's alive and that he will die. He might be able to live longer than a usual human because he's half tomogara too though, but I don't think it would make sense for him to suddenly stop aging at some point. Something like that could happen if Pheles and Johan added something like that in the 'code' of the spell though (just like the Taimei Shihen). He was 'created' after all.

Originally Posted by virox

Can Yuuji teach Shana how to make babies? Well, of course he can, haha, but will it bear any fruits?
The concept of being immortal is really hard to handle, I wonder if the author ever gave any answer to stuff like that...

Technically Shana still has a 'human' body, so she should be able to make babies if Yuji is able to give her the 'necessary ingredients'.

Originally Posted by virox

Even though the Shana-wiki says Tomogara can reproduce naturally, I've never actually seen any evidence... But if they can, how do the babies age? So many questions.

I don't think that the tomogara make babies, even if they can reproduce. I think that they 'create' new (fullgrown) tomogara, by using (or maybe mixing) some PoE of both 'parents'. I've never seen a tomogara baby before after all. If tomogara could make babies, then we should have seen some of these babies or children being taken to Xanadu as well.

Then again, we know nothing about Guze and not a whole lot about tomogara as well. So I guess we'll never know for sure.

Originally Posted by ~Yami~

after rewatching 2nd time, now I understand why there's no one complain about the chaotic night... it's because Yuji and Shana's existence already erased... so no one remember about huge silver armor and six-headed bear

Your reasoning doesn't work, since Margery is still there in that world and her existence hasn't been erased after all.

Nope, everyone was able to see and remember what happened that night. But as Yuji said, 'Remember this......even as a mirage', they probably thought that it wasn't real. Yuji told eveyrone those words through some kind of telepathy. Yuji just wanted to show them this side of the world before leaving, even though he knew that probably nobody would believe any of it.

Telepathy? Huge monsters? I wouldn't have believed it as well.

Originally Posted by ~Yami~

I think because Misaki is served and sacrificed as gate to Xanadu. Because Misaki city's role as link, there's no way God of Creation can create an exact copy in Xanadu

At the time of Xanadu's creation Yuji/SnH used the Reiji Maigo and the anti-seal to enlarge the 'missing links', gaps between 'links' that keep the balance together. When the distance between links is too large, the connections are lost and they 'disappear'.

To keep it simple, basically the PoE at Misaki City was distorted so much that the existence of Misaki City disappeared completely.

People who weren't in Misaki City at the time of the creation of Xanadu wouldn't remember the city, for instance. Just like when humans are forgotten after they've been devoured by tomogara.

So in a way Yuji did copy the place where Misaki City is, but since Misaki City didn't 'exist' at the time because of the many distortions, the copy resulted in nothingness being copied. I think 10:22 of episode 23 was the result.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

And in the end, Carmel saying goodbye to Shana was pointless since she went there anyway.!

Wilhelmina knew that Shana was planning to go to Xanadu. Wilhelmina was wishing Shana the best of luck in the hardest/most emotional battle the girl had to fight in her live.

Wilhelmina also used this opportunity to finally say 'Shana' out loud. Wilhelmina never wanted to call Shana by her name, because she didn't want to admit that the girl wasn't the pure flame haze she raised anymore. She didn't want the name of the "Flame-Haired Burning-Eyed Hunter" to be stained, so she tried to be strict with Shana. A true flame haze wasn't supposed to act according her emotions. But after accepting her own feelings (in episode 22), Wilhelmina was finally able to call the girl by her name, the "Flame-Haired Burning-Eyed Hunter" Shana.

Wilhelmina probably wanted to make sure that Shana heard that, because there was still a small chance that Shana wouldn't make it to Xanadu before the doorway closed. Alastor did warn them that the doorway could close any moment after all.

[virox]

Originally Posted by Deathscyther

Technically Shana still has a 'human' body, so she should be able to make babies if Yuji is able to give her the 'necessary ingredients'.

Pretty sure those body functions still work

[klare]

finally... goodbye Shana, Yuji, Wilhemina etc

so Shana and Yuji get to be together in the end, which is what most of us wished

i guess it is fitting that a kiss to end it all

[Gohan78]

Now that this great series is over I have a few questions for the novel readers, if I may.

1. What exactly does Grammatica do? The first time Yuji used it, it seemed like a barrier but he later used it as a speed boost. Alastor said that it's a multi-purpose spell. Lamies said that he named it Grammatica for a reason. Grammatica is Italian for "grammar" but I can't see the link.

2. How was Margery able to call upon the power of 10,000 Flame Hazes? And for that matter, was it ever explained why Sidonay was so OP? During the attack on Seireiden, not even four of the strongest Flame Hazes (Shana, Wilhelmina, Margery and Centerhill) managed to put a scratch on him.

3. Why did Leanan-Sidhe disguise herself as an old man?

Thanks.

[Senshigeia]

1. Grammatica is a morphing spell, it can do a lot of things: you can hear Alastor commenting that in the last episodes. Sometimes it's a barrier, others it can increase the speed, it can teleport you (like he did with Kazumi). It is unknown what and how many it's full capacities are, being a reflection of Yuji's own personality. As for the name and it's link with the spell, I don't know also...

2. Margery didn't call upon the power: she used the PoE left by the tomogaras when they went to Xanadu. That also explains why Margery was able to defeat him only now, and not before - they were old enemies when they were acquainted to u back in season 1. Sydonay also used that PoE in the final battle, but he was "depressed". He lost his will to fight because of Hecate's desappearance. (I don't know if we can call it "death")

3. As for Lamies, I only know she is disguised with a torch of that old man and is walking the world to collect PoE so she can be able to activate the spell to undo the painting damage. Now why does she go with that disguise? Don't know... maybe because she has a lot of PoE in her hands and is considered dangerous (being that the reason why Margery went after her in season 1), or maybe because she is a powerful spell caster... Don't know also.

I hope I was of some help! :3

[virox]

Originally Posted by Senshigeia

1. Grammatica is a morphing spell, it can do a lot of things: you can hear Alastor commenting that in the last episodes. Sometimes it's a barrier, others it can increase the speed, it can teleport you (like he did with Kazumi). It is unknown what and how many it's full capacities are, being a reflection of Yuji's own personality. As for the name and it's link with the spell, I don't know also...

2. Margery didn't call upon the power: she used the PoE left by the tomogaras when they went to Xanadu. That also explains why Margery was able to defeat him only now, and not before - they were old enemies when they were acquainted to u back in season 1. Sydonay also used that PoE in the final battle, but he was "depressed". He lost his will to fight because of Hecate's desappearance. (I don't know if we can call it "death")

3. As for Lamies, I only know she is disguised with a torch of that old man and is walking the world to collect PoE so she can be able to activate the spell to undo the painting damage. Now why does she go with that disguise? Don't know... maybe because she has a lot of PoE in her hands and is considered dangerous (being that the reason why Margery went after her in season 1), or maybe because she is a powerful spell caster... Don't know also.

I hope I was of some help! :3

To 2: I think Sydonay used none of the surrounding PoE, at least it was implied like that in the novel. He deliberately died.
Why was he so overpowered? Well, he and the other two are creations by the God of Creation, Snake of the Festival, himself, and every one of them has their own purpose. Sydonay is supposed to be his guard, the one that takes everyone out while Snake acts. Hecate gathers the wishes of the Tomogara and Bel Peol... Well I think she was the spellcaster, not sure.

To 3: Leanan-sidhe didn't know that consuming humans was a bad thing to do back when she was with her human lover (kinda contradicting, isn't it?). He once saw her consuming a human and she then left him out of fear and guilt etc.
She later returns only to find out that he still always loved her, but he passed away and the picture he drew of her was destroyed. That's why she set out to gather enough PoE to activate a spell she created, that would return the painting.
She uses a torch's body in order to keep wasting PoE to a minimum, so she won't have to consume humans on her journey.

[marksnan]

Really an awesome series,my favorite one so far.I rated the last episode with 10/10.

Will we now never see anything from Shana again?

[virox]

Originally Posted by marksnan

Really an awesome series,my favorite one so far.I rated the last episode with 10/10.

Will we now never see anything from Shana again?

There are two more Shana-tans to come out. Other than that... we can only hope for a movie or OVAs covering Volume X and XV