(L) Dragon Ball Super

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

But is Dabura really that strong?? I really think Vegeta at that time would have an easier time finishing Dabura off than Trunks



No, it's gohan's fault. Had he trained and finished Dabura off quickly, none of the stuff would have happend. After this episode, we know for sure that Gohan is the only saiyan, possibly the only character in DBZ and DBS, whose power level goes dramatically backward

No, it's Chi Chis' fault, she is the reason Gohan doesn't/didn't train as much as he should.

[Diluc]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Trunks' reaction when he saw loli Mai. They really are building up the pairing, huh?

I hope he will got his own Mai back though.

This pairing still not make any sense for me, Mai literally around his mother age and Toriyama never bothered to explained the Pilaf gang sudden youth.
Like the whole her sudden spotlight only to make MaixTrunks a things, i am not sure if i can approves this.
Seriously, why we can't have Tao pai pai being relevant? it will be cool if Toriyama give spotlight to Tao pai pai suddenly become super strong to resurface Tien relevant again, i suppose this is impossible huh

Originally Posted by Wandering Soul

It's cool that Trunks decided to act like a person with common sense and ended the Buu Saga in a matter of minutes.

Think again, it were Goku and the gang who made Buu reborn was suceed, if only they were listened to Kaioo shin plan the whole buu arc maybe would not happened

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Roxis

This pairing still not make any sense for me, Mai literally around his mother age and Toriyama never bothered to explained the Pilaf gang sudden youth.

In BoG it's explained they made a wish to be young again. They probably did the same in Future Trunks' timeline.

Like the whole her sudden spotlight only to make MaixTrunks a things, i am not sure if i can approves this.

The Japanese seem to like it, which is what matters to the producers.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

In BoG it's explained they made a wish to be young again. They probably did the same in Future Trunks' timeline.


The Japanese seem to like it, which is what matters to the producers.

yeah that wish asfar i remember happened in dragon ball GT and was the only thing so far akira took from GT as cannon he just changed how this happened but was what happened in GT.

[Sixth]

Does anyone feel something isn't right when the plot prevents Goten go to meet Future Trunks and Goku Black? It is almost sounded like Goku Black is Goten Black.

Hmmmmm....

[Diluc]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

In BoG it's explained they made a wish to be young again. They probably did the same in Future Trunks' timeline.


The Japanese seem to like it, which is what matters to the producers.

Yeah but it still forced nonetheless.
I more ship Trunks x Pan because i want the return of true saiyan bloodline from mix of Vegeta and Goku family.

Originally Posted by Sixth

Does anyone feel something isn't right when the plot prevents Goten go to meet Future Trunks and Goku Black? It is almost sounded like Goku Black is Goten Black.

Hmmmmm....

Inb4 someone came up to said Goten wasn't born in Trunks timeline, remember Black Goku has that ring of time, meaning he is a time traveler, so he could be someone from another timeline.

[wredsa]

Goku Black is wearing potara, maybe Goku Black is fusion between Goku and Goten.

[ninjastarforcex]

majin buu just showed up in the future? i guess the future isn't really the future then, just an alternate timeline
goku black probably some kind of God want to punish trunks' timeline for manipulating time during cell saga

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by ninjastarforcex

majin buu just showed up in the future? i guess the future isn't really the future then, just an alternate timeline

This has always been the case. Dragon Ball follows that particular brand of timetravel logic. Note that even back during the Cell-saga, things played out completely differently from what Trunks had predicted. Or to quote Team Four Star:
"More androids." "Really? Pretty sure that makes eight now. Never letting the kid live this one down."

Of course, the show itself never bothered explaining why there were more androids in the main timeline beyond Trunks saying "Maybe it happened because I traveled back in time?", but yeah. Multiple timelines are explicitly a thing in this show.

[Gundamx]

Black Goku probably work under Kai of time order because in their time line Earth should be destroyed by the androids but Trunks change that by using time machine.


About Goten, people been screaming how Chichi ignored him in DBZ.
Look what happened to him when they listed to fans

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

But is Dabura really that strong?? I really think Vegeta at that time would have an easier time finishing Dabura off than Trunks

He is. The only reason why he doesn't seem so is because Vegeta and (especially) Goku have grown stronger, and Buu killed him off. So he gets written off when he isn't there for most of the saga. But you have to realize that Vegeta spent 7 years just catching up to Gohan and Goku had advantages of being in another world.

Gohan was able to gain an advantage against Dabura, though Vegeta would have beaten Dabura handidly. While Gohan lost power, it was more evident that he was rusty as opposed to being that much weaker since as the fight went on, he started to slowly get better again. Gohan has potential but his weakness is in his inability to utilize his power because of lack of confidence, and also because he is a terrible fighter that's had his natural power to rely on. Yea, he was only a kid back then, but all the way up to Cell, his fights consists of mostly "Daddy, what do I do?" and "ARRRGGGHHH DIEEE" when he goes insane. xD Since he didn't really train, this hasn't really changed and he still had to use mostly brute strength which failed when it didn't work.

If you consider that Gohan was actually stronger than Goku against Cell, yet it seemed like he was doing worse before he reached Super Saiyan 2, it was because he didn't know how to fight back.

In the end, kid's just not a good fighter.He just doesn't have it in him to know how to train and fight without guidance. That's why Future Trunks' version of Gohan would never get that strong, Though admittingly that one did pretty good given what they had.


Future Trunks though as per the Cell saga was nothing near Gohan and would not be as good at training as Vegeta was, so Dabura would be a huge threat.

No, it's gohan's fault. Had he trained and finished Dabura off quickly, none of the stuff would have happend. After this episode, we know for sure that Gohan is the only saiyan, possibly the only character in DBZ and DBS, whose power level goes dramatically backward

Can't pin it all on Gohan when:

-- Kaioshin being a retard and not doing the research about his potential allies, as well as letting Gohan get drained because he thought all this needlessly risky tactical shit was necessary when they had enough brute force anyways.

-- The Saiyans needed entertainment and decided to do this 1v1 crap instead of obliterating them all

-- Vegeta being a drama queen as usual

-- Goku trying to teach the Earth a lesson that they can't rely on him-- nice, but taking the risk that there is no Earth that could learn the lesson is dumb. And in the end, Goku sort of realizes it too. He likes fighting and getting stronger, and besides Vegeta, nobody else cares that much. So he accepts that. Note that he never pressures Gohan to do anything after Cell.

Sure, Gohan could have trained, but a life choice is different from people seeing danger and being like an idiot anyways.

It's not a knock on him either. Some people weren't meant to be fighters, and he still did well considering these things. At least he got a life outside of fighting. It's good that not everyone in the series is a fighting focused blockhead. But it's just implied you have to have no life to get really strong. It's just kinda sad that his power would be best spent on someone like Piccolo, Tien, and yes, even Krillin. And honestly, when you've saved the world so many times, you really don't owe them anything.

As a side thing, one should note that it seems like peacetime training never seems to help. People usually get vastly stronger when danger happens. Of course, this is done for plot reasons and there are exceptions but then again it does seem like there are hard walls anyways. This is why Goku stopped the Time Chamber training during the Cell part earlier than expected-- they had gotten everything they could out of it. Meanwhile Vegeta and Trunks were torturing themselves for a second time yet the gain wasn't that massive compared to the first time and still nowhere near Goku because people haven't discovered that breakthrough yet. Plus, they were doing it wrong, but that's yet another case where quality of leveling up matters.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

As a side thing, one should note that it seems like peacetime training never seems to help. People usually get vastly stronger when danger happens.

Probably the only thing I disagree with. Or rather, I'd simply amend the statement such that "peacetime training never seems to help...unless you're Goku or Vegeta".
For example,
-When Goku returned to earth for his first sparring session with Trunks, he went from being somewhat stronger than Frieza to completely dominating the guy (who just dominated Frieza)...with one finger. (I'm not even sure he really did all THAT much training TBH). lol
That's probably the most insane instance of Goku getting absurdly stronger from not doing anything all that special that we know of though.

-SSJ3 was unlocked through peacetime training.

-And so were Goku and Vegeta's SSB transformations it seems

Anyways, I do agree that the quality of training does make a difference, more so than the times being peaceful or not.

[Archon_Wing]

Good points. I guess I'm also leaving out everyone getting ridiculously stronger at the start of DBZ to prepare for the saiyans.

Goku getting much stronger over Trunks is a definite exception and very hard to explain. Then again, why am I trying to explain DBZ to begin with? I like to think of it as his just not having realized all of his power when fighting Frieza as a Super Saiyan because it was just such a huge breakthrough and he didn't need much to finish Frieza off, plus it was just such an intense experience it'd be so hard to sort everything else out at once.

For Super Saiyan 3, it was an exceptional case because Goku had the rare luxury of being able to train while dead. Poor Vegeta couldn't keep up with earthly methods. OTOH this is a series about outliers....

I'd sort of imply SSB since they would have never achieved it in their lives normally, but then again yea, I suppose that kind of makes my point needing to be amended, lol.

In any case, I just don't think it is as simple to get Gohan to just train at this rate. Yea, it really did hurt in the Buu saga, but like I said, everyone screwed up. Though yes, seeing him put up these pitiful performances does need something; maybe they should just do the ritual with him or something.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by sayde

-When Goku returned to earth for his first sparring session with Trunks, he went from being somewhat stronger than Frieza to completely dominating the guy (who just dominated Frieza)...with one finger. (I'm not even sure he really did all THAT much training TBH). lol

Goku was a good 20% stronger than Frieza during their battle. He only got more used to the Super Saiyan form after that, which as the Cell/Cell Games arc showed allows you to use the power better. And that's not counting any Zenkai he may have gotten after he escaped Namek. We also know Future Trunks was weaker than Goku to begin with. So it's not really all THAT telling.

The more important thing to note is access to good training conditions. Goku and Vegeta are the only ones that use them (King Kai's weight training and Capsule Corp's gravity chambers). Even when Gohan, Goten, and Kid Trunks do train, they're generally just screwing around in normal conditions.

[Robotech Master]

Trying to determine Future Trunk's power level in his first appearance compared to Mecha Freeza is further complicated by the fact that in the manga, Trunks was even more practical and killed Freeza when he was at a lower, relaxed power. Whereas the anime has him letting Freeza take pot shots and presumably give it his all.

So it's definitely implied in the manga that Freeza could have put up a longer fight, but Trunks was like "screw that, ending this in two seconds, I've got exposition to spill."

[azenable]

Originally Posted by GDB

Goku was a good 20% stronger than Frieza during their battle. He only got more used to the Super Saiyan form after that, which as the Cell/Cell Games arc showed allows you to use the power better. And that's not counting any Zenkai he may have gotten after he escaped Namek. We also know Future Trunks was weaker than Goku to begin with. So it's not really all THAT telling.

The more important thing to note is access to good training conditions. Goku and Vegeta are the only ones that use them (King Kai's weight training and Capsule Corp's gravity chambers). Even when Gohan, Goten, and Kid Trunks do train, they're generally just screwing around in normal conditions.

WTF is a zenkai? i read the manga for over 20 years and have no idea what is that

[Chichiryuushintei]

I think it's the boost saiyans get when they survive a near death experience.

[DemonneoPT]

Why future Trunks never used the dragon balls to ressurect Goku and friends in his timeline? Was this explained in DBZ?

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

Why future Trunks never used the dragon balls to ressurect Goku and friends in his timeline? Was this explained in DBZ?

Picolo died. So no dragon ball.

At this point, I wonder whether Dragon Ball Super has enough power to restore different timeline world or not.

Maybe Future Trunks can consider live in Present timeline since there is no one waiting for him in the future anymore.

[Keila]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

Why future Trunks never used the dragon balls to ressurect Goku and friends in his timeline? Was this explained in DBZ?

That would be due to the green people being dead.