2013-07-14, 15:14 | Link #29421 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Yes, battery is actual physical violence - assault is the threat thereof. Legally, Zimmerman was engaging in assault the instant he engaged and intimidated Trayvon - any events that led up to Trayvon felt like he needed to act.
And yes, I've been in bar fights against people I didn't know. Sheesh. I'm not avoiding your questions, I've answered every single one. You don't seem to be willing to look at the big picture.
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2013-07-14, 15:15 | Link #29422 | |
Senior Member
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2013-07-14, 15:15 | Link #29423 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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That's kind of the problem here. Zimmerman's alive and so must be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. But if he's not, it implies Treyvon's guilty. So basically, Treyvon must be proven innocent beyond reasonable doubt, just because he's dead, which I find rather asymmetric. How come when you're armed, it's alright to shoot people to "end the fight as fast as possible", but when you're not it's criminal to bash their head against the sidewalk to do the same? |
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2013-07-14, 15:19 | Link #29424 | |
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One difference in one of his blows to Zimmernman could have killed him. So nope, I don't. Anyone who is bashing someone else's head against concrete when he is 100% dominating a fight, gets zero sympathy from me. And yes it was 100% at that point, as Trayvon had no injuries from the struggle until he was shot.
He was 17 years old. Very borderline kid in my opinion. Thug fits his image better considering what I've read and seen about him. Quote:
Your argument doesn't connect. The comparisons you are making are all over the map.
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2013-07-14, 15:20 | Link #29425 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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I rammed their head onto the bar counter several times. Another time I used a chair to ram the jackass back into a wall. In a fight, your objective is to incapacitate the other so you can either get away or call the police.
Now, it appears I can be minding my own business, be confronted or assaulted, even be attacked, and then legally shot dead if I start winning the fight. Fabulous.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2013-07-14 at 15:48. |
2013-07-14, 15:22 | Link #29426 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2013-07-14, 15:25 | Link #29427 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 38
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2013-07-14, 15:32 | Link #29428 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Ok, so, if I'm walking along at night, alone, and you come up to me and start verbally harassing me enough so that I feel threatened, so I trip you, I deserve to be shot? After all, you could have hit your head and been killed in that fall. And who knows, I might even trip you again, you can't risk that. |
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2013-07-14, 15:43 | Link #29430 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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The largest problem here is that we do not have the evidence. We have our perception of the evidence and presented by the media, not in a court of law.
The chain seems to be that Zimmernman assaulted Trayvon. Trayvon reacted by assaulting back with battery (do we know if Zimmernman was branishing his firearm at the start?). In responce to the battery, Zimmernman shot Trayvon. This is how it is perceived. We don't know how it went down exactly as we only have one side's statement as the other is dead.
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2013-07-14, 16:23 | Link #29431 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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I can just project myself onto either side - no matter what the inner motivations are it can turn into a he said she said situation -- and one side can't speak in that particular case. Even with the uncontestable parts of the data - the fact remains that Zimmerman left his vehicle against NW protocol and confronted Trayvon. In my head, that puts the onus on him.
I can easily see my completely rightful response to being approached by Zimmerman, reacting to him threatening me, it ending in my death because I was unable to disarm him and no one contesting his version of events - and him walking free thanks to a badly written law. I guess the moral is for me to use my CCW and go "Indiana Jones" and shoot dead anyone who threatens me. Whee. I think I'll take Florida off my visit list (and any other state showing evidence of that law running amok).
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2013-07-14, 16:30 | Link #29432 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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When I was 16 I went to Florida. I was already 6', which justinstrife thinks is important. At one point I got lost and wandered onto private property.
I now see I am so lucky the employee who found me gave me a ride back out instead of shooting me... |
2013-07-14, 17:05 | Link #29433 | |
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
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There are only two things important to the case. Who started it, and how it ended. Zimmerman instigated the fight by not allowing the police time to arrive to investigate his report. The fight was ended because he bit off more than he could chew and felt threatened enough to pull his gun. It is not a premeditated murder, but it's not really self defense either. The altercation would have been prevented if Zimmerman had not provoked the fight. Put it another way, assume Martin had killed Zimmerman, by Zimmerman hitting his head on the ground. The force could be judged to be excessive, yet it is self defense since Zimmerman instigated the fight by approaching Martin even though he had no reason to. This is ignoring any racism that has sprung up around the case, or armchair legal "experts" in the public. And in the end there wasn't enough evidence to prove the charges brought against Zimmerman. So he's not guilty of murder, but he still killed someone. The jury's opinion reflects this, and it's pretty much what I expected the outcome to be since no evidence or witnesses to the actual fight exist to prove or disprove Zimmerman's claims. The only one who could is dead, obviously. What really happened that night will remain a mystery. The more difficult question to answer is "what's next"? I'm not sure anyone can really answer that.
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2013-07-14, 17:14 | Link #29434 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 40
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For me, I think it's also a matter of the authorities in Florida saving face because their own laws allow wankers like Zimmerman to be in that broken Neighborhood Watch. Seriously, if that state attorney was free to choose (and be intelligent enough) in choosing manslaughter instead of murder, chances would have been higher that Zimmerman would serve time in jail by now. IMHO, that joke of a trial was a cheat since the very beginning. Nice gif. I'd also do just like Bugs. |
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2013-07-14, 18:07 | Link #29435 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Did a fight break out, yes, did Martin get the upper hand, yes, was Zimmerman within his rights to defend himself, "?". What if Zimmerman had stayed in the car and waited for police? What if Martin decided to run of fight the officers? What about the evidence that was not allowed in the trial? Solace asks "what now", an interesting question indeed! Zimmerman will have to live with a death on his soul, that's something that will never go away. Martina's parents will have to grieve and hopefully move on. However there may be a civil suit and a possible federal investigation. Plus the specter of possible retribution will be there as well. The video that was posted is a pretty good indicator of how not to do it! For those if us who've been in a fight, we all know how suddenly civility gets thrown out the door. And how it becomes either a fight or flee situation or fighting for your life! Draw your own conclusions, and make your own mind up. But till you've been there and done that, don't pass judgement! Dale |
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2013-07-14, 20:22 | Link #29436 | ||
Juanita/Kiteless
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New England
Age: 40
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Someone on another forum tried to say that the injustice was on Zimmerman, so this is what I wrote...
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I'll repeat something for people like JustinStrife: Quote:
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2013-07-14, 20:44 | Link #29439 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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Again like I previously posted, the letter of the law is still the law whether it's stupid or not. He was acquitted because technically the law protected his right. The jury for what it's worth followed the law as a jury should. The claim made by some anti-racism groups (and I find the racism card to be hugely overblown) that they're a bunch of tools for letting him get away is an unfair call because the verdict was made in accordance to the law. If they followed the public outcry they'd be undermining the legal process.
People shouldn't be lynching the trial. They should be lynching the law.
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2013-07-14, 20:45 | Link #29440 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 40
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Good find, Urzu.
The only wanker in the story is the stalking Zimmerman disregarding a direct order. Whoever can be led to think otherwise when reading all about the facts must be below 50 points of IQ, just like those members of the jury. |
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