2009-12-03, 21:14 | Link #4861 | ||||
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2009-12-04, 00:21 | Link #4862 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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I'm mixed on the minarets... I understand they're a symbol similar to Xtian church steeples ... but both are powerful political statements as much as anything else historically.
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2009-12-04, 00:27 | Link #4863 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: PMB Headquarters
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Hatoyama says plan to move Futemma base to Henoko 'still alive'
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2009-12-04, 01:56 | Link #4864 | |
cho~ kakkoii
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Planet
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Jinto, are you asking me to change your opinion, or is this discussion about exchanging ideas? Reading your replies thus far, it doesn't seem like you are open to any other point of view. You've already made up your mind. So I'm just going to drop this since arguing for the sake of arguing doesn't tend to go any where.
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2009-12-04, 02:13 | Link #4865 | |||||||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2009-12-04, 03:14 | Link #4866 | ||||
In scientific terms only.
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Ignore this post, however, if I'm completely misunderstanding and babbling away. |
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2009-12-04, 03:23 | Link #4867 | |
Impostor Cutie
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Actually, let's wait a year or two and see how many of these "culture protectors" will with the same zeal support attack on Iran.
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2009-12-04, 04:16 | Link #4868 | |||
Emotionless White Face
Join Date: Feb 2008
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That was extremely insulting. And they use that excuse a lot. Quote:
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2009-12-04, 04:18 | Link #4869 | |
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2009-12-04, 05:49 | Link #4872 | ||
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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If it wasn't for such referendums, every damned extremist Muslim would have bombed any tall building without a minaret on it.
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Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2009-12-04 at 06:02. |
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2009-12-04, 06:40 | Link #4873 | ||
I'll end it before April.
Join Date: Jul 2008
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As I said earlier, I think many people want their country to remain the same, to have its culture intact. You can be agaisnt minaret and whatever you want and not be racist, xenophobic etc...All, these kind of people like me ask, is "Hey, you're in France, so you need to adapt to your culture not the contrary". As a french, I'm very very proud of the culture of my country and I don't like at all when I see that my country is starting to lost its identidy because of stupid such as globalization. And I'm really scared, that one day, when I will go in a foreign country, I will just see the same thing that I saw in my country. I mean what's the differnce now between the building we build in France and USA ? Nothing. If you want to find huge differnce in building between two state you need to look for building from the past >_> Why ? Because of the globalization. Btw, because of that, I'm wondering something : Will it be easier to accept minaret and other bulding like that, if the building is made with the same building material than the building material of the country ? (Don't know if I'm clear enough )
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2009-12-04, 08:28 | Link #4874 | |
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The other thing I think some people don't realise is that globalisation can be a good thing as these franchises I speak of operate worldwide and people can benefit from them. It's connecting countries together through a world economy, something that did not exist up to 3 or 4 centuries ago to the same extent as we have now. People see this as a benefit to the world economy. For all these reasons, globalisation could even become the bane of world economy. Globalisation is creating a web connecting all the countries in the world. If a piece of that web is broken, all the other knots will come away and the web will be destroyed. We experienced a taste of it in this recession. As globalisation spreads, I expect the entire world will become more prone to these recessions because of this interconnection. What's more is that it's destroying specialties. Different countries have different resources, different things they can contribute if one wants world trade to flourish, but globalisation isn't taking advantage of that. It's merely outsourcing labour where it is cheaper and then exporting it back to the original location, foregoing opportunities that can be best exploited in Europe, for instance. |
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2009-12-04, 08:45 | Link #4875 | ||||
eyewitness
Join Date: Jan 2007
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People I hear talking against referenda are concerned with the scope of possible referenda (e.g. from civil rights as in this case to anything) not with who's eligible to vote. If you want to summarize that as "Joe (independent of education and drinking habits) is not good enough" to decide on minarets so be it. There are legislative bodies I elect on four levels: local, state, national, and union level. Each come with a list of competences, shared or exclusive. They all are "good enough" as you put it to decide some issues but not others. So? The people I hear talking pro referenda are often enough angry individuals are self-declared representatives of "the people", poorly informed and blindly raging against "the corrupt elite". They consider any suggestion that good governance is a result of a carefully crafted system as a personal insult. Instead they want to monopolize decision making, disdain compromises, and also concepts like fair trials (as long its not their own) or civil rights (dito) and generally everything that might come in the way of their idea of "real" democracy. They're also incedibly irresponsible. They don't care for anything that isn't their fault, and nothing is ever their fault, its always the upper/lower/middle class they not consider themselves part of, or politicians, lobbies, foreign powers, ... . If anything else fails, its the government's fault for not having them informed enough as if that wasn't their own obligation. (Tick of what applies to you, I see a few points.) And considering that they voice their opinions in more or less orthographically and gramatically correct sentences and in the comment sections of respectable newspapers (not tabloids) I suppose there are more Joe PhDs than Joe Sixpacks among them. Still, I do not want to let those people "directly" legislate into my personal sphere. Quote:
So referenda > rule of law? Make another tick above. I do not use ad hominem. I'm not saying your opinions are wrong because you voice them. I say your opinions are wrong, period. I think your naive and irresponsible. You wouldn't if your history was different. That doesn't mean I'd for you finding out the hard way.
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Last edited by Slice of Life; 2009-12-04 at 08:59. |
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2009-12-04, 08:55 | Link #4876 | |
Emotionless White Face
Join Date: Feb 2008
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But the opposite is not true. Example: - The Irish voted by referendum in 2008. They rejected the treaty. - The government made them vote again in 2009. They accepted the treaty. And given what was said, they would have re-voted it till it passes. But they will not re-vote to see if people are still ok with that treaty or not. Now that it passed, No new vote is allowed. So, it's not really fair and democratic imo. In France, we did even better. Since we rejected the european constitution once, Sarkozy didn't even allow the people to vote about the lisbon treaty. His government imposed it, and people had just the right to shut up. |
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2009-12-04, 09:14 | Link #4877 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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the trouble with referendums is that
a)its a very complicated and bureaucratically heavy way to run any country (its a nightmare to get anything done) b)most of the people who vote have very little of the actual facts, and much less then the government (given that the public does not know everything) democracy through popular mandate is the preferable way to referendums as a rule, because the people elected actually have to think about more then what the average person sees in the papers you'd be amazed just how stupid and emotionally driven mob opinion can get at time, especially since people tend not to look more then two days ahead about anything
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2009-12-04, 09:23 | Link #4878 | |
Emotionless White Face
Join Date: Feb 2008
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I see two problems: - When your politicians are nowhere clean and good. Of course, you realize it once you voted for them already because they won't do what they promised to do. - When they act like little dictators when they do things that most people will disagree with if they were asked to vote for it. Now maybe you live in a country in which your government is good, clean, and work for its country "and people". In my case, I can't say I am happy to see people like Mitterrand being able to enforce/impose laws (he's on the way to impose Hadopi-2), to see him criticizing the morals of the common people, while being a horrible hypocritical, and surely corrupted person. |
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2009-12-04, 09:39 | Link #4879 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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1)there is no such place where the people who run the government are "good" people
you dont get that far ahead in politics without being a bastard the hope one should have when voting for someone is that in the big picture, they would end up doing more good then harm 2)the advantage of the democratic system is that if someone gets voted into office and then backstabs the people who voted for them they would not get re-elected because of it complaining is fine and protesting is fine, because these methods show the people in charge that the public is displeased with their actions and that their future in politics is in jeopardy but once you let "the people" run the country, you make it impossible for the country to actually work
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2009-12-04, 09:44 | Link #4880 | ||
Emotionless White Face
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Protesting? Yeah sure. As I said, in France, we did cut heads once. It might happen again if politicians from whatever party they are continue to play the dictators who think they can do whatever they want because they got the power to do so. Quote:
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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