New Mobile Report Gundam Wing: Frozen Teardrop (2010 Novel)

[Mareike]

Finally on a PC! It's been tough following the on-going discussions on my phone. ;A; Anyway...


In response to the discussion regarding Zechs hugging Relena:

Nothing left for me to say, as you guys have already expressed how I felt about that scene.

On Zechs as the big brother:

Not to hate on blondie (I'm a fan of his character), but I also think he's a pretty fail!brother for the most part. Yes, little Milliardo was very loving towards Relena, but as Zechs... Oh, dear.

I understand that he had to keep himself away until he's carried out his personal mission and that he does care for her, but... instead of being there with her and helping her out after he's done extracting his revenge, what does he do? He indulges in his insecurity, flies off to join White Fang and declares an all out war on Earth. He cares for her, ok, yet he keeps himself away. He burdens her with the responsibility that should have been his to begin with.

If I were Relena and he hugs me after all the that... I'd go "HU U?"

Let me join in on hitting his head with his mask. It might help stop him from conjuring another silly name should his stint as Cyrene fail.

Poor Relena. But even moreso: poor Noin.

On Gundam SEED...

Thank goodness I never bothered to watch the series! O_O I'm such a GW loyalist that I refused to watch other series esp. after how I didn't like G and X. Haha.

I thought Cagalli and Athrun looked cute, though. XD

On the next FT and GOTD(L) chapters:

Yayyyyyyyy! Eagerly awaiting the scans and translations! :3

...

Now I dunno if I got this correctly, but... Sabrina and Katrina are pilots, too? Nice love triangle, btw. Although... can't say I was surprised.

[Faerie]

Ok, I'm going to make a few point about the relena/Zechs thing, related to LeavethePieces, Nishiio, IkuzeMinna, Omnicat, and everyone else

Spoiler for the discussion xD:

First of all: I'm trying to keep this discussion sane, even though it is partially about Relena. We all like her here. There are no rabid haters in this discussion xD
They are only well-intended criticisms of both sides.

Yeah, Zechs is a bit of a fail!Brother, but to be fair, I think we should look at both sides here. I'm not defending either side, I just believe in being able to criticize a character if you like them, and I like them both. Not taking sides, just adding a few thoughts to what was already said.

1. @Omnicat: Zechs did visit Relena while she was a girl, and he was a teen. Sidestory. So it's inaccurate to say he didn't care for or didn't visit her while they were separated. he very much cared, and he very much kept an eye on her the whole time. It's not as if he suddenly popped up and demanded to be her brother. For him, she was very much the focus of his efforts, and he gave up a lot for her sake.

2. Therefore, from the perspective of someone who has witnessed what Zechs was up to, it seems terribly harsh for her to not return any affections, be this during the hug or in Antarctica. Of course she didn't know, and of course she had reason to. However, looking at it from the pov that acknowledges what Zechs had done for her, it's still sad. It's not just a one-sided question of "ok, you screwed up and I don't even know you" is my point. Both sides have reason.

3. (still mostly @Omnicat =D) Yeah, Zechs can be a douchebag. BUT so can Relena. It kind of runs in the family, so I will have to disagree about this comment.
I agree of course that he is sometimes horrible to Noin, sometimes to Relena. But on the other hand, Relena is equally horrible to people, and arguably BOTH have reasons. Zechs has reason because he is messed up and excuse me, but I can't blame him for his behaviour. Relena had a fuzzy, warm, cuddly upbringing. He got hell.
So no- as for their behavior towards other people, Zechs has got every right. It is arguably worse when Relena lashes out, for she can sometimes appear self-righteous. It's easy to criticize people when you've been sitting at your cozy private school, sipping fruit smoothies and having your hair brushed by a trained professional. Do you see what I'm getting at here?
Often she has some reason for being unnecessarily rude to people, but sometimes she doesn't.
For example she has no reason to be as bossy to Noin as she sometimes is. I would've long since told her to watch her tone
Of course it's supposed to be her doing what she thinks is right, and she tones it down a little after a while.
But still. her tone with other people, especially at the beginning of the show is very often very inappropriate, as she basically has little idea what she's on about, but goes about judging everyone without even trying to understand peoples reasoning. Politics doesn't work that way. She learns this later however.
She also grows up, and by the time EW rolls around, she has changed considerably. But so has Zechs.

Just to clarify: I'm not hating, I like her, I just want to point out that not everything is Zechs' fault, and Relena isn't faultless either.
I sometimes feel that people who like a character can't see their flaws anymore (and I know that isn't true for most people in this discussion, but anyway...! )
I aim to be objective enough that I can even criticize characters I like for the faults they obviously all have =)

(btw, I'm not speaking about his actions and when he goes whacko, that's a different thing. That said, the Gundam boys are terrorists, and have themselves killed loads of people, which is mass murder too, in some cases, they just don't get as much schtick for it as Zechs does, because he is portrayed as bad, whereas the G boys are not. But of course I agree that Zechs has done stupid/bad/plain insane things)

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

This is so true. And yet not.
You know, some people are just stupid. There's no other way to call it. Here are some reasons people state for not liking her, taken from an anti-Relena site:

LOL @ those.
It's always the yaoi fangirls. Because of them you can hardly have a sane discussion about Relena and try to criticize some of her actions without those who like her going nuts. Damn yaoi fangirls.
Of course she has flaws. But they can also be intelligently dissected in a non-negative way

About the Pink!: it's one of my favorite colors. Yes, so sue me people Even so, I can partially understand the criticism in Wing's use of pink vs Seeds use of pink (but not the hatin').
it seemed more natural in Seed due to the flashy designs of absolutely every character, whereas in Wing in stood out more because everyone else was dressed in diluted colors, and all the girls were dressed more modestly, due to circumstance.
So in Wing, Relena's limousine just stuck out like a sore thumb, and tbh, I don't like these in real life, they always contain sweet 16 birthday girls who want to gain entry at the club I'm trying to relax at
As for her clothes though, I never minded them, I thought they were kind of funny, you know, after Legally Blonde was released, because there are definitely some ironic parallels. But I didn't mind it- I rather minded that all the other girls never got to wear anything pretty, with the other girls having design issues that prevented the from being similarly cute.
For example, a long-haired Noin, or a Noin with a less weird short haircut would be really cute. And Sally wearing something civilian and not 90s like would be cute too

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

No, Dorothy was written as a minor character and also portrayed as one. A very badass one at that. Lacus on the other hand was written as a minor albeit important character but treated like a main. And that, ladies and gentlemen, doesn't work.

Yes, I totally agree! That's entirely Morosama's fault though. You really can't be attached to a character when you're writing. Many, if not most average writers have this problem, especially in Shoujo series.... that Arina Tanemura being a massive offender.
Tbh, I got these vibes from Wing sometimes, that it tried to promote Relena too much. Like "IN YOUR FACE, THIS IS THE MAIN, SHE'S ALWAYS RIGHT!!", leaving me thinking yea yea right, ok, I get it already... sigh.
But no where as bad as Seed did it, and Wing also corrected itself, eg Relena grew up. Lacus just got away with it better, because she's sweeter looking (flashier design I mean), like you said.

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

In 1937 Snow White (and I don't mean the MS xD) was cleaning the dwarfs' house and being rescued by her Prince Charming.

what was up with that?? I categorically refuse to clean the house of a man shorter than myself.
jk

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

But Japanese society is possibly in the same process of changing, as SkullFaerie noted. GW actually felt very Western to me.

They are, and we are too, although there are still many offenders, there is a shift to "the bitch/ feisty girl always wins" as opposed to 10 years ago "the sweet, innocent girl always wins" in TV, books, movies and some anime, too.

Best western contemporary example is probably the entirety of Gossip Girl. Nice, sweet, helpless girls get shafted... AND hated by the viewers.
Best anime example? Macross F, again, I guess. Take that, Ranka.

But there's still loads of stereotype material a la Sailor Moon/Usagi around in both West and East....

But you know, this is all secondary. I believe the main reason why characters like Lacus are popular in Japan is actually this: Japanese are obsessed with cuteness. And tough women aren't cute. That simple. Or would you call Noin, Sally or even Dorothy cute?

Like I said above, I would, with slight design alterations. Let's say, if Wing had been designed today:
Noin would have a better/edgier/ less weird hairstyle. She would probably also be pretty flat chested (which she is anyway), possibly at least mildly tending to loli (instead of manly) just to feed that joke about Pedo!Char.
She was just sort of designed as the 90s image of strong (arguable) woman, which has changed in our perception today. Today, she'd be a thin, edgy-hairstyled but sexy somewhat tomboy-ish girl in a good way. Kind of like Cagalli, but more Makise Kurisu/Steins Gate in the design.

Dorothy obv wouldn't have the eyebrows (LOL at those), that's all. It's the only thing that prevents her from being cute by today's standards.

Sally, equally, would have a more slender exterior, and more form-fitted uniforms, and be all around a bit more graceful. That, together with the cone-shaped hair is enough to make her design fit that of a cute girl.

Imo, it's just mostly a 90s thing. Look at how the designs evolved in EW, everyone is better looking/ more feminine there already. They did kind of perceive these character types different then than we would today.

[Deacon Blues]

Pondering time!

MC-0001 ＝ AC-178~181
MC-0017 ＝ AC-210~213
MC-0022 ＝ AC-220~223

Make sense?

[Aldaeus]

Then I guess the AC timeline ended before it began in the series/ova because according to that math AC 195 to 197 was MC 0004 or something along those lines... I still subscribe to the theory that this is just a dodge around the OVA's last line how there were no longer any mobile suits including Gundams...

[Kitsoru]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

Pondering time!

MC-0001 ＝ AC-178~181
MC-0017 ＝ AC-210~213
MC-0022 ＝ AC-220~223

Make sense?

Hmm.. but following that, it'd be about 4 earth years to a MC year, but we know for a fact that Mars' years are about 2 Earth years.
I guess it'd make more sense for their ages, though... but.. hmm.

EDIT: Although.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timekee...s#Martian_year

[Deacon Blues]

4? No no no no...

MC-0017　＝　AC210～213　（MC-0001: 16 years pass ⇒ AC time it's 16×2＝32）
MC-0022 ＝ AC220～223（MC-0017 5 years pass ⇒ AC time it's 5×2＝10）

[Kitsoru]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

4? No no no no...

MC-0017　＝　AC210～213　（MC-0001: 16 years pass ⇒ AC time it's 16×2＝32）
MC-0022 ＝ AC220～223（MC-0017 5 years pass ⇒ AC time it's 5×2＝10）

fff you're right! lol this is why I'm an art student and not an accounting one

Yeah, sounds about right. And since the Noinheim were mentioned as going to Mars pretty early, that would mean they were already up there just about the time that the Gundam pilots woulda been born?

EDIT: Also by that math, Jr was stated to be about 4 in MC0017 NEXT SUMMER, sooo... yup, as I thought that places him at about 15 in present.
But Katherine, who was stated to be about 4 in MC0019, would only be about 10ish... yeesh.

[Aldaeus]

Originally Posted by Kitsoru

fff you're right! lol this is why I'm an art student and not an accounting one

Yeah, sounds about right. And since the Noinheim were mentioned as going to Mars pretty early, that would mean they were already up there just about the time that the Gundam pilots woulda been born?

EDIT: Also by that math, Jr was stated to be about 4 in MC0017 NEXT SUMMER, sooo... yup, as I thought that places him at about 15 in present.
But Katherine, who was stated to be about 4 in MC0019, would only be about 10ish... yeesh.

>.> 10ish is right <.< Well... it would pose an interesting question what is Katherine's age really...

[Mareike]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Ok, I'm going to make a few point about the relena/Zechs thing, related to LeavethePieces, Nishiio, IkuzeMinna, Omnicat, and everyone else

Spoiler for the discussion xD:

First of all: I'm trying to keep this discussion sane, even though it is partially about Relena. We all like her here. There are no rabid haters in this discussion xD
They are only well-intended criticisms of both sides.

Yeah, Zechs is a bit of a fail!Brother, but to be fair, I think we should look at both sides here. I'm not defending either side, I just believe in being able to criticize a character if you like them, and I like them both. Not taking sides, just adding a few thoughts to what was already said.

1. @Omnicat: Zechs did visit Relena while she was a girl, and he was a teen. Sidestory. So it's inaccurate to say he didn't care for or didn't visit her while they were separated. he very much cared, and he very much kept an eye on her the whole time. It's not as if he suddenly popped up and demanded to be her brother. For him, she was very much the focus of his efforts, and he gave up a lot for her sake.

2. Therefore, from the perspective of someone who has witnessed what Zechs was up to, it seems terribly harsh for her to not return any affections, be this during the hug or in Antarctica. Of course she didn't know, and of course she had reason to. However, looking at it from the pov that acknowledges what Zechs had done for her, it's still sad. It's not just a one-sided question of "ok, you screwed up and I don't even know you" is my point. Both sides have reason.

3. (still mostly @Omnicat =D) Yeah, Zechs can be a douchebag. BUT so can Relena. It kind of runs in the family, so I will have to disagree about this comment.
I agree of course that he is sometimes horrible to Noin, sometimes to Relena. But on the other hand, Relena is equally horrible to people, and arguably BOTH have reasons. Zechs has reason because he is messed up and excuse me, but I can't blame him for his behaviour. Relena had a fuzzy, warm, cuddly upbringing. He got hell.
So no- as for their behavior towards other people, Zechs has got every right. It is arguably worse when Relena lashes out, for she can sometimes appear self-righteous. It's easy to criticize people when you've been sitting at your cozy private school, sipping fruit smoothies and having your hair brushed by a trained professional. Do you see what I'm getting at here?
Often she has some reason for being unnecessarily rude to people, but sometimes she doesn't.
For example she has no reason to be as bossy to Noin as she sometimes is. I would've long since told her to watch her tone
Of course it's supposed to be her doing what she thinks is right, and she tones it down a little after a while.
But still. her tone with other people, especially at the beginning of the show is very often very inappropriate, as she basically has little idea what she's on about, but goes about judging everyone without even trying to understand peoples reasoning. Politics doesn't work that way. She learns this later however.
She also grows up, and by the time EW rolls around, she has changed considerably. But so has Zechs.

Just to clarify: I'm not hating, I like her, I just want to point out that not everything is Zechs' fault, and Relena isn't faultless either.
I sometimes feel that people who like a character can't see their flaws anymore (and I know that isn't true for most people in this discussion, but anyway...! )
I aim to be objective enough that I can even criticize characters I like for the faults they obviously all have =)

(btw, I'm not speaking about his actions and when he goes whacko, that's a different thing. That said, the Gundam boys are terrorists, and have themselves killed loads of people, which is mass murder too, in some cases, they just don't get as much schtick for it as Zechs does, because he is portrayed as bad, whereas the G boys are not. But of course I agree that Zechs has done stupid/bad/plain insane things)

I totally get where you're coming from. There's no denying the personal sacrifices he's made in the name of his family, especially for his sister. And yes, he does have every right to be messed up after all that he's gone through, although of course it was his still his choice to go down the path he did. He may feel that his actions are justified but the problem with him is that, imo, he indulged too much in his guilt and other negativities which kept him from being by her sister's side instead of depending on Noin to do his job for him.

What I'm trying to say, though, is that had I been his sister, I would have wanted him to be by my side as I deal with all the hullaballoo that came with the Peacecraft name. That's saying that I am unaware of the extent of his sacrifices (as Relena), only knowing the things he did and who he is from second-hand/third-hand sources. Then again, Relena seemed to have been just fine without him around what with Noin, Pagan, the boys and even Dorothy to guide her along. Still, it would have been nice to have Zechs fulfill his role as the brother with her, and not from afar (going on guilt-trips and declaring war on Earth). </3

And yes, Relena's not without fault either. However, if we say that Zechs has all the reason to be the way he is, I think that applies to Relena as well on account of her upbringing (and family situation, I suppose). I actually disliked her in the earlier stages of the series. Rude towards Sally, bossy towards Noin, sticking her nose in somebody else's business (back when I first watched the series, I couldn't understand why she just kept on hounding Heero and just let the boy be)... but as the show went on and I saw her transformation, I learned to appreciate her more. But that she seemed to have shown more concern for Heero than Zechs saddens me when they're both technically strangers to her and both of them have bloodied hands. But then, that's just me.

Spoiler for On the girls' clothing/design:

I rather minded that all the other girls never got to wear anything pretty, with the other girls having design issues that prevented the from being similarly cute.
For example, a long-haired Noin, or a Noin with a less weird short haircut would be really cute. And Sally wearing something civilian and not 90s like would be cute too

Like I said above, I would, with slight design alterations. Let's say, if Wing had been designed today:
Noin would have a better/edgier/ less weird hairstyle. She would probably also be pretty flat chested (which she is anyway), possibly at least mildly tending to loli (instead of manly) just to feed that joke about Pedo!Char.
She was just sort of designed as the 90s image of strong (arguable) woman, which has changed in our perception today. Today, she'd be a thin, edgy-hairstyled but sexy somewhat tomboy-ish girl in a good way. Kind of like Cagalli, but more Makise Kurisu/Steins Gate in the design.

Dorothy obv wouldn't have the eyebrows (LOL at those), that's all. It's the only thing that prevents her from being cute by today's standards.

Sally, equally, would have a more slender exterior, and more form-fitted uniforms, and be all around a bit more graceful. That, together with the cone-shaped hair is enough to make her design fit that of a cute girl.

Imo, it's just mostly a 90s thing. Look at how the designs evolved in EW, everyone is better looking/ more feminine there already. They did kind of perceive these character types different then than we would today.

THIS!!! Except Noin isn't flat-chested. XD I would looooove to see her with longer hair, and I'm still holding onto the hope that she grows it in FT. (Please, Sumizawa? Asagi?). I think Mitsuru Kirijo's (Persona 3) hairstyle would suit her. But not that long, maybe. XD

Amen on Dorothy's eyebrows, too. I was just like Y O Y?! when I first saw her. She's a very interesting character, pretty, too had it not been for those eyebrows ruining her face! ;A;


And I'm still trying to process all those numbers. <--- Not a math person.

[Kitsoru]

I assume Ace has been released already, cuz I just got the money taken out by Fujisan. So we should start seeing more news and scans soon.

[gordol]

this month's GOTD:

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/8...d4a76d9d28.jpg
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/8...d4a8788eb6.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/541...d4a7dd3181.jpg
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/8...d4a8e9c36c.jpg

New weapon for Shelong! Is that a Grief or a prototype Tallgeese?

[Kitsoru]

Originally Posted by gordol

this month's GOTD:

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/8...d4a76d9d28.jpg
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/8...d4a8788eb6.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/541...d4a7dd3181.jpg
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/8...d4a8e9c36c.jpg

New weapon for Shelong! Is that a Grief or a prototype Tallgeese?

Mmmmm Meilan badassery.
Looks like a Grief. And Shenlong's got a sword now...? Sweet. Strange that it's not included on the new MG model though, since the Heavyarms MG is coming with its new optional equipment (the extra gatling stuff).

[Nishiio]

Originally Posted by gordol

this month's GOTD:

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/8...d4a76d9d28.jpg
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/8...d4a8788eb6.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/541...d4a7dd3181.jpg
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/8...d4a8e9c36c.jpg

New weapon for Shelong! Is that a Grief or a prototype Tallgeese?

Sweet, thank you!!
So happy to see more of Meilan in here. I thought she was a great character in Episode Zero and really helps us understand Wufei more.
I love how badass most of the women are in GW :P

[Leave The Pieces]

@ SkullFaerie I'd PM this to you, because it's too long that I might get in to trouble for it, but your claims were publicised so I want my defense to be publicised as well.

Spoiler for To SkullFaerie, the loooonggggeessttt known post on a forum.:

I.

Zechs did visit Relena while she was a girl, and he was a teen. Sidestory. So it's inaccurate to say he didn't care for or didn't visit her while they were separated.

I suggest you check out the double asterisk reference Omnicat made on that post of hers and Kitsoru's ninja skills when it comes to spotting typos.

he very much cared, and he very much kept an eye on her the whole time.

No, hunny, nuh-uh. Nope nope nope. I didn't see it. As much as I WANT to think he did, he did not care for her very much. He did care, yes. But not very much - and that's an understatement, even.

Also, he didn't keep an eye out for her "the whole time". Tbh, I can only remember two occasions where he looked out for her. Just two. Two times = NOT "the whole time".

For him, she was very much the focus of his efforts, and he gave up a lot for her sake.

Except... Zechs didn't exactly do anything for her...? Again, as much as I love to think he did, golly moi, he soooo did NOT do the things that he did just for her. "For him", you say? No. It was just a win-win situation for the two. And there's no doubt in my mind he knew that. Why else do you think he was so confident to do the things that he did? Not only did he know he's so badass that there's no doubt he'll succeed, he ALSO knew he had a sister who will ascend to the throne when he succeeds, that's why.

BUT if, theoretically, he didn't have a sister, I'm pretty sure he still would've done what he did. All things he did weren't for anyone. It was for himself. He swore to revive the Sanq Kingdom no matter what. He knew he wouldn't die happy if he failed to do this. Sister or no sister, he would've still done all those things cuz he was consumed by the idea of it. Which is why I agree with Omnicat's saying he didn't have any regard for Relena's wishes*.

*The whole Sanq Kingdom Rises Again and Long Lost Princess Found and Will Rule situation left me with this impression:

Zechs: Thanks to me, the fallen kingdom is back on its feet. Sis, what can YOU contribute? After all, I'm not the only living Peacecraft here. Since you didn't exactly help me bring the kingdom back to its former glory, you should lead it. Besides, you're the only one I deem qualified.

Umm... Zechs, no one told or even just asked you to do half the things you did! You can't put Relena on a guilt-trip like that. (I'm not saying that he did. But I was left with that impression.)

Dude, honestly, if it were me, I'd be like "Bro, what the eff are you on? As much as I'm delighted to know that I'm a princess, I don't want to rule!!!!! You know why? Because I'm ONLY fifteen, I have other plans in life and my adoptive father just died." Seriously, all those things were too much to take, everything was falling apart at the wrong place and at the wrong time but she handled it SO well. I'm surprised a childish, sheltered girl like herself didn't just give up on life, locked herself in her room, felt sorry for herself and cried 'til kingdom come.

Therefore, from the perspective of someone who has witnessed what Zechs was up to, it seems terribly harsh for her to not return any affections, be this during the hug or in Antarctica. Of course she didn't know, and of course she had reason to. However, looking at it from the pov that acknowledges what Zechs had done for her, it's still sad.

I'm just glad that you used the word "seems". But yeah, the things these people "witnessed that Zechs was up to" weren't exactly for Relena. Furthermore, I agree with Omnicat's reasoning about how it was inappropriate for Relena to hug him back. It's just being too soft -- and yet again, another understatement. What, these "people who witnessed what Zechs was up to"... witnessed everything he was up to indeed, except for when he fired Libra's canon to Earth when he himself knew Relena's shuttle was close by? Eh? Also, say Relena didn't go to space then... he kept firing on Earth! Even though, theoretically, he knew his own sister was there! The story in Antarctica (why the heck did I keep saying Siberia) is a different story. All Relena knew that time was the fact that this Zechs person is an OZ soldier. Last time she checked, OZ is THE enemy. THEY JUST KILLED HER FATHER RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER EYES. His last words were to watch out for OZ, and when she met Noin, the lady pretty much hinted that she hates the organisation just as much as Relena does. So it didn't make sense to Relena why Noin is all so suddenly protective of Zechs. When she found out he was her brother, she took her words back and even asked Noin to take care of him. AND THAT NULLIFIES HER PREVIOUS "REPULSIVE" ACTIONS. And I'm pretty sure that, even if Zechs weren't her brother and Relena found out he infiltrated OZ because he was a Sanq Kingdom loyalist, Relena would still take her words back because brother or no brother, she was rest assured by Noin, whom she trusts, that he was on her side.

NOTE: I'm not hating on Zechs at all. Me as an audience <3 him as a character. But if I were a character on the show and I'm just as perfectly informed as the audience of what kind of a person he is, he'd actually repulse me.

II.

It's always the yaoi fangirls. Because of them you can hardly have a sane discussion about Relena and try to criticize some of her actions without those who like her going nuts. Damn yaoi fangirls.

Wow are you serious? The yaoi fangirls can only be partially blamed. I can sort of understand what you're saying here but, man, honestly, this miffs me a little everytime I read things like this that I can't just let it go without saying something.

See, another sad thing about Relena's "condition" and those of us her fans, is that WHEN we disagree with certain criticisms thrown at her by non-yaoi fans simply because we deem them off-the-wall, we're ALL automatically labelled neurotic and insecure because of the yaoi fans. Umm, no, that's not always the case. But people seem to think so, anyway. Nevertheless, that can and will NEVER stop me from not accepting these supposed "criticisms only"... if, for me, they don't make any sense. Be it from yaoi fans or not. So, here we go:

Yeah, Zechs can be a douchebag. BUT so can Relena. It kind of runs in the family

SAY WHAT? And as for the following point: hunny, the only thing Zechs and Relena had in common, other than the overused blonde hair/blue eyes colour scheme, is their desire to avenge the murder of the people they love, the Peacecrafts and VFM Darlian, respectively. And the funny thing is, Relena got over it. She learned how to forgive. Zechs did not. She redeemed herself. From the recap episode she narrated, up to the very last, Relena was a changed person. Zechs did not change, at all. No wait, I lied. He did change - he got worse. When Heero defeated him, that's when he finally realised he was wrong and so when he came back in EW, he was one of the good guys.

~

Sorry, cuppycake, but you lost me completely on the following (see quotes + responses). This is in no way intended to mock you. But when was the last time you saw the series? I implore you to cite instances--legit and canon instances where Relena's being "rude" and "bossy" is non-debatable, otherwise you claiming she is--I'll use the words "mean" rather than "d-bag"/"rude"/"bossy"--is no more legitimate than me claiming she's not. Although, I'm not gonna deny that people who claim she is so, like yourself, outnumber those who don't, like myself.

But on the other hand, Relena is equally horrible to people, and arguably BOTH have reasons.

Disagreed. Not equally horrible.

Relena had her flaws, too, I'm not arguing with that. Just like Zechs... and everyone else. But hers were no match against his. I know you said you weren't taking sides but the way you put it just sounds like siding with Relena is wrong. This may sound arrogant but... while I don't think there's anything wrong with taking neither side, I also don't think there's anything wrong with taking Relena's side. Now if one takes Zechs' side, that's when there's something wrong. Why? Because Zechs had MORE faults than Relena. Not equal. He had the most out of everybody, actually. And that's not even up for debate. It was written intentionally because he was the final antagonist and everybody else was against him. Okay, I didn't really have to say that. That's stating the obvious, DUUHH, Leave The Pieces. Sorry, but I just can't think of another way right now to explain it other than saying that.

So no- as for their behavior towards other people, Zechs has got every right. It is arguably worse when Relena lashes out, for she can sometimes appear self-righteous.

Disagreed again. But thank you for using the word "arguably". Tell me when this alleged Relena lashing out happened. I'm pretty sure I can "justify" it. You said so yourself, she "appears" to be self-righteous. Seemingly self-righteous is different from... really being self-righteous. So I don't get what the complaint is for in the first place?

It's easy to criticize people when you've been sitting at your cozy private school, sipping fruit smoothies and having your hair brushed by a trained professional. Do you see what I'm getting at here?

I know you're asking Omnicat but if it were me you asked, my answer would be: Yes, I can see where you're getting at. I just don't understand why you had to say those statements. I don't think they're applicable to the Relena I know and love. When did Relena criticise people so easily and so out of line exactly? No, no, let me rephrase that: When did she criticise people exactly?

Often she has some reason for being unnecessarily rude to people, but sometimes she doesn't.

Disagreed again. She was never "unnecessarily rude" to me. And everytime (not just "often") she got--I'll use the word: hormonal--at someone, she had very good reason to. It was explained all the time. People just fail to acknowledge it.

For example she has no reason to be as bossy to Noin as she sometimes is.

Again, please cite a specific example. I think I know what you're going to cite but I want it to come from you, nonetheless.

Of course it's supposed to be her doing what she thinks is right, and she tones it down a little after a while.

There was nothing to tone down. She just becomes less moody and... well, grows up. Although, even if there were something she had to tone down, if she did tone it down, it wasn't just "a little". It was a heck of a lot. I disagree.

But still. her tone with other people, especially at the beginning of the show

ONLY* at the beginning of the show, not "especially". So disagreeing still.

her tone with other people, especially at the beginning of the show is very often very inappropriate

Not "very often", not "very inappropriate" either. I disagree.

as she basically has little idea what she's on about, but goes about judging everyone without even trying to understand peoples reasoning.

Pardon me, who did she judge?

She also grows up, and by the time EW rolls around, she has changed considerably. But so has Zechs.

She didn't change "considerably", she changed COMPLETELY.
And not "by the time EW rolls around", but way before then.

I'm going to pretend you immediately asked "So when then?" My answer: by the time she narrated one of the recap episodes up to the final one, up to EW. She was a COMPLETELY different person.

As for the last sentence, as I said, Zechs didn't change for the better during the series. It just so happened that by the time he came back in EW, he was a changed man and finally one of the good guys.

~

I don't know how to say this humbly, so forgive me if it sounds harsh: No matter how much I tried to consider what you were saying (ones quoted above), NOTHING could help me to NOT think that, your saying she's all those things, is nothing but your own interpretation of her behaviours. Albeit a lot of other people's interpretation, too, I'm sure. But it doesn't change the fact that it is nothing but that. An interpretation, a mere theory. A theory you can't prove any more than I can prove mine in which she's the opposite--not entirely, but opposite nonetheless. And IMHO, one can't criticise based on an interpretation. You can, however, theorise reasons to complain based on it, but to criticise with all certainty based on it... NO.

III.

Of course she has flaws.

Agree on this one, though. She sure had flaws. Then again, all the characters did. A character is only considered well-written if he/she is realistic. And for him/her to be realistic, they have to have flaws like real people do.

Tbh, I got these vibes from Wing sometimes, that it tried to promote Relena too much. Like "IN YOUR FACE, THIS IS THE MAIN, SHE'S ALWAYS RIGHT!!", leaving me thinking yea yea right, ok, I get it already... sigh.

While I agree that Wing sometimes promoted Relena, it was never TOO MUCH. Not when the character deserves it. Tell me one lead female who was never put into the spotlight -> this sentence is stupider than the sound of the word "stupider". If it were done to Dorothy, who wasn't the lead female, that's when I would've minded it. Like Lacus.

Wait, I lied. Even if it were done to Dorothy, I personally wouldn't have minded. Dorothy's just too badass for me to find it a crime. But still, it wouldn't be right. But whatever, I like Dorothy lol XD

Imo, it's just mostly a 90s thing. They did kind of perceive these character types different then than we would today.

Agreed.

@ Mareike

Rude towards Sally, bossy towards Noin, sticking her nose in somebody else's business

I don't necessarily mean you, since you've admitted that you understand why she behaved this way and that you acknowledge her transformation. But seriously, complaining about Relena's introduction as someone bratty (I refuse to use the words "rude" and "bossy") is the same as complaining about Cagalli's introduction as someone rebellious -- it doesn't make sense. To me, at least.

But that she seemed to have shown more concern for Heero than Zechs saddens me when they're both technically strangers to her and both of them have bloodied hands. But then, that's just me.

I know you said that it's just you and I'm not trying to change your mind here or anything, but allow me to tell you my own POV regarding this.

To me, the amount of care Relena showed for the two men wasn't unbalanced. It was equal. While she showed more support for Heero's actions than for Zechs', when it comes to caring for either, I never got the impression she was unfair to her own blood, although I wouldn't blame others for thinking she were. But yeah... she wasn't unfair. Support and care are two different things.

You know, everybody supported everybody more than they supported Zechs. Even Noin, she stood on the other side of the line, albeit her attachment to Zechs prevented her to fight him back. Nevertheless, she wasn't on his side.



That face Relena pulled up there (especially if it's moving, you'll see she had shake-y eyes. Actually, it's her most shake-y eyes scene after the helmet scene iirc), yeah, it was the sight of Zechs' wrong doings and their being publicised that made her make that face. I can see a lot of care, concern and pain there. Deep down, it kills her that her brother is going all V for Vendetta on everyone.

Seriously, that's one of her most concerned/hurt faces I've seen. The others being: when VFM Darlian died, when Heero bid her goodbye and when she heard Zechs and Heero were fighting on the falling battleship, both eager to meet their maker.

The funny thing is, all these other scenes had the people she was concerned for close to her already. She's obviously always loved the VFM all her life and before she cried when Heero was leaving, he pretty much told her first that he's going out there to die for her and her dreams. If he hadn't told her that and just went off the usual way, "Meehh, see ya", I'm sure she'd be saddened but not very much. His confession was just very moving for her. So, before I get started on the last example, I'll go back to the screenshot I posted.

That face showed the same amount of care and concern and pain as the other examples did, DESPITE the fact that unlike VFM Darlian and Heero (in the end), Zechs was still a complete stranger to her. Even before this scene, they haven't really had a lot of interaction. But still, she was equally concerned and hurting for him because he was her brother. And just look at how hurt she looked as she admitted to Heero that her own brother, the big bad wolf, has been defeated and that there's no way he could get away with the things he did. She looked hurt... and she even does the cliche "fist on thy bossom *cue look away*" thing.

Also... I maybe over-analysing this but, in the last example where she broke down and screamed "NNOOOO!!!" before she said "Wait, isn't that where my brother and Heero are?!?", she mentioned her brother first. Even though it was Heero who was decent enough to say goodbye to her properly and told her that he's even doing all these things for her... and Zechs didn't even say goodbye, well technically he did. With that hologram. But what was the best thing the guy said to her? "I hope you make it through all this, Relena" or something.

Seriously, "I promised myself that I will protect you so please let me go and die doing so, even if it meant I'll also kill your brother (but I REALLY won't, it's supposed to be a surprise to show my character development)" TRUMPS the line "I hope you make it through all this shiz I made. Adieu." any day. But yes, despite that, she mentions her brother first when she asks that question.

For me, she cared for those two equally.

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by gordol

this month's GOTD:

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/8...d4a76d9d28.jpg
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/8...d4a8788eb6.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/541...d4a7dd3181.jpg
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/8...d4a8e9c36c.jpg

New weapon for Shelong! Is that a Grief or a prototype Tallgeese?

I'm not feeling Shenlong's sword, but the space laser modifications look cool.

I wonder how much more new info will be added to Wufei's flashback.

[Leave The Pieces]

Btw, Kitsoru, how much does an ACE cost you? The mag + shipping. If you don't mind sharing, that is.

Here at my place it's $27.00 + $13.00 shipping. I want to subscribe but if that's a rip off, I'll forget about it. Also, I got my FT volumes 1 and 2 for $16.00 each. Is that overpriced or not? I'm poor. I have to know lol.

[Rising Dragon]

Didn't the Shenlong use a cannon in the series proper? Taken from another mobile suit? Could've sworn he did.

[allison13]

Originally Posted by Leave The Pieces

Btw, Kitsoru, how much does an ACE cost you? The mag + shipping. If you don't mind sharing, that is.

Here at my place it's $27.00 + $13.00 shipping. I want to subscribe but if that's a rip off, I'll forget about it. Also, I got my FT volumes 1 and 2 for $16.00 each. Is that overpriced or not? I'm poor. I have to know lol.

Fujisan finally shipped out my FT vol 3, and they quoted me about $17 including shipping. I haven't checked the charge yet, though. ACE is around $20 including shipping from the same place.

Edit: sorry, I know I'm not Kit Figured I'd just throw this out there anyway.

Edit again: Leave The Pieces, where did you order FT 1 and 2 from?

[Faerie]

Spoiler for what mareike and leavethepieces said =):

ot: HOLY SHIT, I worked on this post for 2 and a little hours, then my mac committed suicide. I nearly died. Fortunately it is a mac and it recovered this post. I would NOT have typed this up again, omg.... x_______X'''

Originally Posted by Mareike

but as the show went on and I saw her transformation, I learned to appreciate her more. But that she seemed to have shown more concern for Heero than Zechs saddens me when they're both technically strangers to her and both of them have bloodied hands. But then, that's just me.

THIS!!! Except Noin isn't flat-chested. XD I would looooove to see her with longer hair,

She isn't really, but sometimes she seems to be. It depends.. xD
But yes, I totally agree, she would look great with long hair like that, or just generally an update from the 90s


And now... great, I wanted to go to sleep earlier today. xD
First of all: Just because I like a character, doesn't mean I can't criticize her, or take issue with some things this character does. I see nothing wrong with that, and no reason to be patronizing.. sigh.

Originally Posted by Leave The Pieces

He did care, yes. But not very much - and that's an understatement, even.

Okay then. If he didn't care, then why and how did Relena grow up living a happy life, not knowing anything about her parents, brother or what had happened.
She didn't have to spend her childhood knowing her parents had been murdered and her country had been taken from her.
Instead, she got to live a cozy life, while Zechs shouldered the burdens. So I must ask you to rethink that statement, as it is just not true.
Of course, he also does things for himself, but excuse me- he's his own human being, not everything he does needs to be geared towards what would be best for Relena.
As far as taking revenge for his family goes, we may not like it, we may not agree with it, but he had every right.
Nonetheless, he did what was necessary with regards to Cinq- without him there would BE no kingdom to give Relena, and she would've found it hard to execute the kind of influence she did, even being Darlian's daughter she would've been much less likely to be heard. So don't say Zechs did "very little" for her, it's just not really correct.

Let's assume Relena had not had the sheltered upbringing she had. Let's assume she had taken Zechs' role instead of him, or had been growing up alongside him, knowing who she was and what had happened. Do you think she would have turned out the same idealistic politician that she has? (Thankfully that didn't happen. You would have seen a full blown FT! Relena with mask and all)
It's unlikely.
She grew up to be the person we know because she wasn't subjected to all that.

That said, Zechs' final plan in the series was clearly insanity, of course, but he didn't really do it for insanity's sake (well.... which just goes to show he was actually insane, because insane people never know they are insane.... )
He did it to unify everyone against him as a common enemy, so there would be peace, as he saw Relena struggling to achieve it.
Which is noble in a twisted way, but also, as I said. LOLWHUT insane.

Also, he didn't keep an eye out for her "the whole time". Tbh, I can only remember two occasions where he looked out for her. Just two. Two times = NOT "the whole time".

First of all: He can't really hang around to go see her- he would be found out. People aren't stupid. He had been easily found out by Onegell. What do you think would happen if he dropped by the Darlian's every month or so? Many people obviously hated the Peacecrafts (hence why they are dead), Onegell states this for instance. Relena could be dead if he tried this.
He can also hardly secretly stalk her in secret, wtf.
In a situation like this, it's the greater display of love to keep your distance, don't you think?
He did what he could to ensure no harm came to her.
Granted, he probably also stayed away, because of all the guilt tripping and self-hating he has going on. But still.

Zechs: Thanks to me, the fallen kingdom is back on its feet. Sis, what can YOU contribute? After all, I'm not the only living Peacecraft here. Since you didn't exactly help me bring the kingdom back to its former glory, you should lead it. Besides, you're the only one I deem qualified.

I contest this. He never acted in a way that implied he disliked that Relena did nothing during her childhood until the revival of CInq to contribute like you make it sound. What exactly gave you that idea?
He didn't WANT her to contribute, he didn't WANT her to do the dirty work. He wanted to do all the dirty work himself. And then he gave her it, because he didn't think he was fit to (which I disagree with btw. He is potentially a great politician, he just needs a psychiatrist. Or a whole team of them )
As for Relena's wishes: what do you understand as her wishes?
With regards to political influence, like I said above, judging from her actions and interest in her father's work, her reaction to the Gundam, she wanted it, maybe not at this young age etc, but it's not as if she would've preferred to watch from the sidelines.
And she wouldn't have gotten it initially as a Darlian.

To be fair, I would've preferred him to stay by her side to guide her/ work alongside her on the political front once Cinq was revived. I myself didn't like his further development after that.

Umm... Zechs, no one told or even just asked you to do half the things you did! You can't put Relena on a guilt-trip like that. (I'm not saying that he did. But I was left with that impression.)

well he absolutely didn't, and give me one piece of proof for this. Sorry, but... you're trying to take me apart for impressions I have, and make me dig out proof, yet you make this claim while admitting it probably has no basis....

Dude, honestly, if it were me, I'd be like "Bro, what the eff are you on? As much as I'm delighted to know that I'm a princess, I don't want to rule!!!!!

- we never get proof she wanted to do anything else with her life than going into politics anyway (unlike for example 00 Marina, where we learn she wanted to be a singer, of all things).
- if she hadn't then, she wouldn't have had any influence until she was about 30, as she would've had to go through elections and age limitations etc.
- War was coming regardless of wether she had been given the opportunity to participate (eg being given Cinq), and I bet you she would've hated having no power. Especially after her father was killed.
If you think Relena would've preferred to NOT have been given the political power that she had been entrusted with, then I think you're making an error about her personality/ character. One of the reasons I like her, is that she so willingly accepted responsibility and did what she did. If she had reacted like you suggested, she wouldn't be 1/5th of the character we know and should've never been given the opportunity.

Furthermore, I agree with Omnicat's reasoning about how it was inappropriate for Relena to hug him back. It's just being too soft --

I never said that I didn't think that. On the contrary, what I am saying is that it's a shame she didn't, but she couldn't, either.

, except for when he fired Libra's canon to Earth when he himself knew Relena's shuttle was close by? Eh? Also, say Relena didn't go to space then... he kept firing on Earth!

he wouldn't have accidentally killed her. It's Zechs, ace pilot. 'nuff said. Plus, he fired on a remote place. It's not as if he bombed down North America.
Not sure if there's an official source on how many casualties he actually caused, but I'm assuming it's not actually that many. If you compare it to the war casualties that equally the Gundam pilots or the war itself so far and thereafter had and would've caused.... I'm not sure the Zechs Merquise death toll is higher than the overall Heero Yuy death toll for example. Feel free to present me with concrete proof to the contrary

I am not justifying his crazy-time here, just saying you exaggerate on some points.
Of course I didn't like what he did there, I just think you are unnecessarily harsh on zechs while completely glorifying Relena. I know both of them have faults, and try to maintain that.

Last time she checked, OZ is THE enemy. THEY JUST KILLED HER FATHER RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER EYES.

Agreed, just one thing:
Yeah well, and last time she checked, Heero was a terrorist, so technicallyyyyyy she shouldn't be having sympathies for either of them. Just saying...

His last words were to watch out for OZ, and when she met Noin, the lady pretty much hinted that she hates the organisation just as much as Relena does. So it didn't make sense to Relena why Noin is all so suddenly protective of Zechs.

You neglect the fact that Noin also wears an OZ uniform, yet she aids Relena, which should make her suspicious that there is probably more to this than meets the eye. So no- saying "Zechs is OZ!" in her eyes at this point doesn't work.
Saying she just didn't sympathize with what he did and preferred Heero however does. I don't mean to say, she should've deduced what was going on, or that maybe Zechs wasn't siding with OZ.... I'm not even saying I disagree with her on choosing Heero. It's understandable.
ALL I said was, that if your sister that you care for very much told you to go die after you try to ensure she grows up happily sound very harsh.
And that's the ONLY thing I said. Not that it doesn't make sense to her at the time, or that it isn't understandable at the time.

When she found out he was her brother, she took her words back and even asked Noin to take care of him. AND THAT NULLIFIES HER PREVIOUS "REPULSIVE" ACTIONS.

No, it doesn't. It serves as an apology of sorts, but it doesn't nullify it, as meaning it didn't happen. Just because you take something back doesn't erase it from your memory, does it. If, for example, I say something hurtful to you, then apologize and take it back- would the hurt suddenly evaporate just because I said sorry? Don't think so.

And I'm pretty sure that, even if Zechs weren't her brother and Relena found out he infiltrated OZ because he was a Sanq Kingdom loyalist, Relena would still take her words back because brother or no brother, she was rest assured by Noin, whom she trusts, that he was on her side.

I agree with this. Like I said, I never meant to say that she didn't improve on harsh things she said or made up for it
I'm merely pointing out that she did say harsh things, which you're just ignoring.

NOTE: I'm not hating on Zechs at all. Me as an audience <3 him as a character. But if I were a character on the show and I'm just as perfectly informed as the audience of what kind of a person he is, he'd actually repulse me.

I find that overly harsh. The same goes for Relena and all of the Gundam pilots. If you DIDN'T know why she did everything as she did, she WOULD come across as heavily flawed and irrational. It's only because you KNOW and as you say are "perfectly informed as the audience" about why she acts as she does, that you can justify some of her actions.
Same goes for the pilots who, as terrorists, from the point of view of a person on the show have the least justification for their actions.
Is it ok for Heero to bomb away buldings and little girls, but Zechs bombs a remote location and gets all the schtick from you
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong to criticize Zechs, I am myself very critical of him, but you're simply neglecting everyone else while painting Zechs as the resident demon.

Wow are you serious? The yaoi fangirls can only be partially blamed. I can sort of understand what you're saying here but, man, honestly, this miffs me a little everytime I read things like this that I can't just let it go without saying something.

Yes. I should've explained, by yaoi fangirls, I automatically included the Relena haters, because usually it is so... Sorry.
The point is, because there is such strong hate for Relena, her fans are equally rabid in loving her, and so far, I have yet to have a

sane

discussion about her character. and I find that a shame.
As soon as someone points out a flaw,

someone

will definitely go down on you in an aggressive kind of way and accuse you of hating. To an extend I can understand that because of the extremity of the Relena hate, so of course people become defensive.
However, in my case, I like her, but am critical too. And I apply this to EVERY character in anything I watch. I can't like a character but be oblivious to the times they went wrong in some way.
Trust me, I am just as critical about everyone else, and none of it is ill-intended.

In your case, it just comes across as if you want to paint Relena as the perfect character, and everything she does is justified and noble and she can do no wrong, whereas Zechs is only a monster and doesn't give a crap about anyone, and I don't think that's very objective nor do I think it represents the reality, especially when you're neglecting that every character in this show is purposefully flawed (and that is a good thing)
I'm not trying to be overly critical, your reaction is really kind of "normal" and expected, because of what I described above.. I just think it's a shame...

And I'm also not accusing you of, like you said being "neurotic and insecure", by no means!! I'm just pointing out that you're exaggerating on many counts, and I hope you can understand where I'm coming from =) I'm trying to have a friendly and fun discussion here =)

the only thing Zechs and Relena had in common, other than the overused blonde hair/blue eyes colour scheme, is their desire to avenge the murder of the people they love, the Peacecrafts and VFM Darlian, respectively.

Really. What about character traits. It is stated explicitly in the show that they have similar behavioral patterns, described as something like "peacecraft stubbornness" or something.
Furthermore, FT's masked!Relena seems to want to disagree with you. It just shows that given the right circumstances, they will act in some similar ways.
However, they are obviously also vastly different in temperament and character. But you're not correct in claiming they have nothing in common when in canon, they do.

And the funny thing is, Relena got over it. She learned how to forgive. Zechs did not. She redeemed herself. From the recap episode she narrated, up to the very last, Relena was a changed person. Zechs did not change, at all. No wait, I lied. He did change - he got worse. When Heero defeated him, that's when he finally realised he was wrong and so when he came back in EW, he was one of the good guys.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say he never changed, then you say he did. So he redeemed himself too, only it took him longer.
Is there something wrong with taking a longer time to recover? Don't think so, especially not, since he had to endure a lot more hardships than Relena, pre- series.
Zechs redeemed himself just as Relena did. Please, I really hope you're seeing where I'm coming from, because it really seems as if you're only seeing what you want to

Sorry, cuppycake, but you lost me completely on the following (see quotes + responses). This is in no way intended to mock you.

Unfortunately, that is what you sound like through this entire post though... I'm not taking offense, don't worry, but I would like to point it out.

But when was the last time you saw the series? I implore you to cite instances--legit and canon instances where Relena's being "rude" and "bossy" is non-debatable, otherwise you claiming she is--I'll use the words "mean" rather than "d-bag"/"rude"/"bossy"--is no more legitimate than me claiming she's not. Although, I'm not gonna deny that people who claim she is so, like yourself, outnumber those who don't, like myself.

sigh- let me think of some of the top of my head. It's 3.30 am and I kind of refuse to go pick them out for their exact location in the series. Don't have so much time either right now

- the way she speaks to Noin most of the time. She has a servant-tone going on right there, which is not okay. She might be able to justify that tone towards Pagan, considering he's the Butler, but generally, you're supposed to treat your staff with a nicer tone of voice.
It's not even necessarily what she says, but the tone of voice she uses.... though I think sometimes the way she addressed Noin was pretty unnecessary too. Will check for quotes if I have time.
- the way she speaks to Heero /some of the pilots (this is mostly 1st half of the show stuff)- she had this habit of judging the way they act (similar to how she judged Zechs in Antarctica. So it's not as if she just did this to him), from her vantage point as a happy girl who never had any troubles in her life and has never been confronted with anything hard, sad or horrible until the death of her father.
Yet she still condemns the pilots for taking up arms, without asking WHY.
I'm not saying she is wrong in what she says, I am saying she is insensitive and fails to grasp the larger picture in this instance.
She's all "Hey guys, you should't fight. It's bad". Of course it is. But did she once ask why?
For example "Hey Duo, I know you are an orphan, and they're treating you guys in the colonies badly, and hey Wufei, your wife got killed, and you all have a reason to take up arms, but fighting will not bring a solution" is a completely different thing than just saying "Ok, you fight, you are wrong STOP THAT RIGHT NOW I SAY. Because I can. I'm not gonna ask what your grievance is!"
- rude to Sally too. Again, being right doesn't justify rudeness. She may be annoyed that she has Heero, but hey- she fixed him up, at least. And she's again totally ignoring that she shouldn't technically trust either of them. OZ can't be trusted, ok. She got that.
But equally, she shouldn't really trust a terrorist she found lying around somewhere

You see, the fact that someone is right doesn't change if someone is RUDE, they are two different things. You keep pointing out that you think she's right, but how exactly does that negate that she is rude at the same time, or inconsiderate?

Relena had her flaws, too, I'm not arguing with that.

But you are. You seem to be trying to justify every flaw she had away. You say it isn't so, but then, could you please list what YOU thin are Relena's flaws? Sorry, maybe I'm getting the wrong impression....

Just like Zechs... and everyone else. But hers were no match against his.

btw, I was speaking only about character flaws really in my initial post. Not flaws in their actions.
And in terms of those they commit pretty similar offenses, given the difference in their background as well.

I just don't understand why you had to say those statements. I don't think they're applicable to the Relena I know and love. When did she criticise people exactly?

see above.
And as to why- like I said, because I only wanted to point out, that it isn't only Zechs who has flaws, but Relena too. I was coming down heavier on Relena, because obviously her flaws hadn't been pointed out, whereas many of Zechs' flaws had- therefore there was no need to repeat them. I was aiming to add the other side of the coin to what had been said.
And because based on what you said in this post, you have a somewhat distorted idea of Relena. Maybe I'm getting the wrong impression though, like I said.
Thing is, I like her

despite

having these flaws and having made these errors, because they are understandable. But just trying to make them go away and ignoring them and denying them or as you say "justifying" them away is imo, just as bad as ignoring her good sides and only seeing her perceived flaws.
It seems kind of like the opposite extreme.....

She was never "unnecessarily rude" to me. And everytime (not just "often") she got--I'll use the word: hormonal--at someone, she had very good reason to. It was explained all the time. People just fail to acknowledge it.

No, like I said above. Just having some kind of reason for saying something, doesn't make it ok, or less insensitive, or anything. It just means there was a reason. Nothing more.
I think you can be sure that people here do acknowledge the reason and understand it, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

While I agree that Wing sometimes promoted Relena, it was never TOO MUCH. Not when the character deserves it. Tell me one lead female who was never put into the spotlight -> this sentence is stupider than the sound of the word "stupider".

I will ignore the offensive part here to answer the question.
I am referring to the way Relena is, in canon often promoted, many times by the characters themselves as the perfect solution to their problems to the extend that it becomes somewhat ridiculous.
Relena is the only one who can rule Cinq (Zechs, Noin, pretty much every main character), Relena is perfect and pure (Zechs), etc.
Isn't her fault. is not a flaw of hers.
Is, however, a bit grating. This was, imo a flaw of the producing team, trying to push her this way.
I think, a more humble portrayal, narration-wise could have helped stave off some of the negative feedback she and the show got.
This is a critique of this particular element of writing in Wing. This has been somewhat corrected in other interpretations of Gundam that portrayed their recent politician girl in a more humble way, such as 00 (even though Marina is mostly useless, lol. Thing is, everyone except that old dude know it). Therefore, I believe this is simply a way that the 90s liked to portray their main girls. Other 90s shows suffered from this too.



Sorry, I hope you're not thinking I'm trying to be harsh, it's the opposite =) I would love for it to be possible to have a normal discussion about Relena, without one side feeling offended for some reason....
Like I said, I supporter her despite of her various issues, or rather because she grew past this.
But that doesn't mean it's ok to deny they were ever there. I'm not saying it is BAD she did or said these things. I'm just pointing out she did, and it's sometimes not right or totally justified. But that's OK. It just makes her human. So calm down, ok?

If you are calm, then I apologize, I'm saying this, because I sometimes felt you were being personal or over the line, so I'm guessing you were upset by what I wrote.... it wasn't my intention, I was much rather attempting to bring some perspective =)

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Didn't the Shenlong use a cannon in the series proper? Taken from another mobile suit? Could've sworn he did.

It did. Episode 4; he used a high-energy cannon the Aries suits tried using against it to shoot down the Tauros transport carrier. The new weapon is the final image: Some kind of solid-blade sword.