2006-01-14, 19:24 | Link #401 |
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//Edit: About GSD "failure " I don't think I can add a lot . If it's a financial succes it's //sucks as a show and it's a texbook example of what not to do with a good story .
well all i can say is that you speak the truth but i dont think you can really call it a financial success, sure it sold dvds and soundtracks, but as i mentioned previously. if you compare it to the original in terms of overall sales, the two wouldnt even match up. i mean i find it hard for bandai to be milking off this series given all the negativity surrounding it ( i dont expect to see a destiny version of never ending tommorow) which is why they immediately opted for a thrid series, to get back all that potential revenue that was lost in this one(if they did the story right they could have been milking this sries for 5 years) and also because this series happen to meet bandais expected sales quota. ideally it should have exceeded it past or closely matching seeds. but given what happened..... my two cents. |
2006-01-14, 22:05 | Link #402 | |||||||||
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The purpose of a character foil is to emphasize a character trait through contrast. Thus, it is essential that the primary character still exhibits (or will exhibit in the near future) the trait being contrasted. However, after Kira "died", Fllay changed. In fact, she changed so much that she no longer bore the trait of "manipulative". So how can Lacus help to emphasize a trait that the primary character no longer has? Quote:
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Your last passage doesn't address the issue of foils at all. To summarize, if you want to compare and contrast Lacus and Fllay, feel free to do so. It's a worthy endeavour, and you might learn some useful insights. If you want to claim that they are character foils, then you're going to need some better supporting logic.
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2006-01-14, 22:08 | Link #403 | |
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2006-01-14, 23:24 | Link #404 | |||||||||||
Tsubasa No Kami
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Seriously, this was GSD in a nutshell. Quote:
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Just because a person is saying something in a different manner doesn't mean that he's incapable of thinking critically... Quote:
Anyway, seriously... Lacus is the Mary Sue who could do no wrong and Fllay was the girl who did everything "wrong". As for addressing the fans who lambast Fllay for being manipulative, bitch, etc., etc...some of the fans who hate Fllay actually think this way, so you also call them unobservant? Expect more fireworks about this statement soon... Quote:
Fllay didn't really make a very huge impact on people until she left. That, I think, is just about the only thing that makes her >>>>>>>>>>>> Lacus any given day (well...she's beautiful and she has lots of unusual charisma in her which is quite believable for some of the male fans on this board so this could also count as a point why she is >>>>>> Lacus), in spite of all those Lacus dust spiels, she would just only be remembered as Lacus Clyne, the name, the face, the voice, while Fllay Allster will always be remembered as Fllay Allster, not just because of the lipstick, but of who she was at the end. Quote:
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Lacus was still emphasizing traits Fllay had, that is being unselfish, being open to all the things that were going on around them, and being very forgiving about it in the end (I am pertaining to Lacus here). Fllay started off by being selfish, being closed minded on all things because of her upbringing, and wasn't very forgiving; but she changed after the series, to which she understood more about the ugly thing called war, started thinking of others and not just herself, and forgave Kira for being a Coordinator, that is, she actually loved him in the end for being Kira and not because of her selfish little ways of trying to get back at the Coordinators. She also apologized for being so wrong and so hurtful to others, especially Kira. Fllay was more believable in a sense that she actually changed throughout the series in a very realistic way, not so like Lacus who remained like that until the end of GSD. Quote:
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Shinn = foil of Kira Shinn and Fllay = Kira and Lacus = foils of each other and what have you Shinn + Fllay Put them together and what have you got? Mind boggling hotness. Seriously... The reason why they are foils could be aptly seen in the entire series of GS and GSD. Fllay was everything Lacus wasn't. Shinn was everything Kira wasn't. It's not that hard to understand, right?
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2006-01-14, 23:50 | Link #405 | |||||
uwu
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The best place to point out how two characters are foils is where they contrast because their intended to bring out different sides of each other. If you don't think that makes them foils, then whatever... you asked me to explain and I did and stated places where they contrasted (However your reasoning for them not being foils makes other known literature foils non-foils). Some of your comments make me think you weren't quite entirely sure of what I was saying.... For clarification: Quote:
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So if Fllay quit being manipulative and selfish, why did she try to get back with Sai by telling him she never loved Kira and try kill Dearka to gain Miriallia's approval as well as prove just how much she "hates" Coordinators despite just being in a relationship with one? It just shows how she is still so dependent she is - now that Kira is not around, who will pay attention to her? If anything, after Kira "dies" she loses her "effectiveness". What's shown in PLANT, is how Lacus provides a sense of renewal in Kira, and clears the clouds of his mind and directs him away from the thought of death (which Fllay wanted him to steer towards - KILL EVERYONE ZOMGG) and points out that there are many he must've saved. Lacus leads him towards the role of a savior, while Fllay led him towards the role of a killer. Lacus's influence of the savior-type image contrasts their ideal images and thoughts of Kira, and generally shows that Fllay has a very twisted vision of mankind after her father dies, believing only in the bad of people (this is also displayed when she tries to tell Miriallia that Miriallia is like her. Miriallia is shocked she could be comparable to someone like Fllay, and ends her vendetta), while Lacus, in quite heavy contrast, tries to show the good of the situation Kira has found himself in about the lives he has saved by fighting, as well as pushes him towards the end of the war, while Fllay (until the manipulation tables get turned on her) wants battles to continue. Although she kind of lost that before he died too. Perhaps "fighting spirit" is a better term... Anyway, there is no point in listing anything else or going into a proper argument with you because you're already very, very set that I am an idiot who can't read, can't think, and who doesn't know what a foil is, and that they are not foils. Last edited by Schneizel; 2006-01-15 at 00:07. |
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2006-01-15, 00:34 | Link #406 | |||||||
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2006-01-15, 01:24 | Link #407 | |||||
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kodachrome, you are quite right that both Fllay and Lacus tried to end the war. However, this is also true for Azrael. So is he the foil for - Lacus or Fllay? How about Kira? Or anybody else who wanted the same thing. Your use of this as an example of a foil simply doesn't work; it looks more like you're just trying to list things that vaguely seem to fit the definition. Quote:
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If my mannerisms offend you, then I apologize. I'm sort of that way with everyone, so you shouldn't take things too personally.
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2006-01-15, 04:37 | Link #408 |
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Watched SEED once again out of curiosity. Could have rewatched Turn A instead..
Anyway after watching SEED.. Destiny just isn't good story wise because a) no well defined bad guy (as in the bad guy who will pilot a GUndam and do battle with the hero)... First supposedly EA was bad.. ANd Zaft good which means Shinn the hero and whoever they throw at him is the bad guy. Then half way through it flipped 180 degreess and Shinn became bad guy yet he doesn't have the bad bad guy look or personality.. SO the show lost focus there. b) No good supporting characters... Seed had excellent Dearka and Yzak for coordinators while Murrue and Mwu for the Kira and co team. They supported the main characters... c) Well defined good and bad side... Which is OK if you're story is action driven. In destiny it became bogged down with philosophy, politics, and the idea no one is bad nor good despite the fact the show became so action drive. It worked with the slower UC series because they were more story driven which required quite a lot of character development. d) In any case, I find the three misfit pilots from EA ? Blue Cosmos more entertainign and fun to watch then the three misfit extended in Destiny. Somehow having a chick that is nothing more than a dumb down version of Fllay but with a knack for piloting MS who then have an affair with one of the lead characters just make then enemy weaker.. Which filled the series with a "this is such a one sided affair" series... |
2006-01-16, 06:09 | Link #410 | |
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2006-01-16, 08:11 | Link #411 | |
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I did like how they killed off the extended... except for Sting who should have died the first time... I kinda liked how Auel was killed off a few episodes first, and the rest later... it feels somewhat more believable when a team dies in seperate battles then all at once... not sure why... it just does... grant it though... if i had to pick i would definatly say the druggies were better... in addiction to my hatred for stellar, the extended and Neo didn't seem nearly as threaten/strong as the druggies the extended and Neo had trouble fighting Inexperienced Shinn in Impusle, Demi-waterdowned-god Athrun in savior, and two Zakus... The Druggies gave demi-god Kira in freedom and Demi-god Athrun in Justice a real challenge |
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2006-01-16, 09:34 | Link #412 | |
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2006-01-16, 09:43 | Link #413 |
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@ VCV
That's just weird. I mean, an interview states that Meer's Red Chan was copied from the Haros left at Lacus' house in PLANT. Then I highly doubt Athrun would do something really conspicuous as going to the same beach everyday with those spies (presumably because of Dullindal's knowledge of Lacus in Orb + "Coordinator" hit gang) about just to fix those Haros...he'll be busy every single day as Cagalli's bodyguard too, right?
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2006-01-16, 10:15 | Link #414 | |
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2006-01-16, 11:57 | Link #415 | |||||||
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OK time to get serious again...
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So you decide who makes flippant remarks and those who don't? Granted that every poster on this thread has been consitently showing what they think of GSD as a failure or whatever, there's nobody on this thread who decides that it is flippant or not, flame bait or not, trolling or not, except for Mr. Paper. Quote:
Hmm. Spoiled brat, maybe. Bitch with a severe attitude problem, maybe (in the beginning of the series anyway). But naive? Narrow minded about Coordinators and war, that's it. Never naive. That only goes for GODDESS Lacus. Quote:
Even if they are rabid Fllay haters, it gives you no reason to call them as such. You are then guilty of the same absurd thing you are accusing them of. Quote:
Let's see. Lacus = Fllay foil in start of SEED. Lacus remained the same throughout SEED whereas Fllay actually changed. But you can't say that Lacus isn't a foil of Fllay anymore. Is being a foil only a one shot deal? That in order to become a character foil the protagonist in question should also remain static so as the foil could continue being a foil? Then that defeats the characterization of the protagonist in question then...it nerfs his/her development. Quote:
But Fllay was Kira's love.
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2006-01-16, 13:14 | Link #416 |
uwu
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Cer, you forgot that their mothers were both dead before the start of the series, that their fathers both died in the series, they did not start out as part of the war but became involved, they were both Kira's women, and, oh yes - Lacus and Fllay are both girls. Watch as I grasp at the straws of comparison now.
Disclaimer: Since it's okay when 4tran is flippant and illogical, and since I am being an ass in the same style as 4tran, it is auto-okay for me to have dropped that Lacus and Fllay are both girls comment. |
2006-01-16, 13:46 | Link #418 | |||
I disagree with you all.
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As for Lacus - hard to say how much of that naïveté was protective coloration. Quote:
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2006-01-16, 23:16 | Link #419 | |||||||||
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Very much so. She performed all of her actions without understanding the ramifications of any of them. Fllay tried to do malicious things not because she could actually gain by it, but because she thought that she was clever, and because it was the only things that she could do. If she was more worldly, she could have easily made better choices for her self. As it was, her self-delusions tended to hurt herself far more than anyone else. Quote:
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2006-01-17, 10:37 | Link #420 | |||||||||
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Sometimes when you want to make something out of the complexities, all you really have to do is to simplify them and so you'll understand better. Quote:
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She was bent on revenge, way more than being naive. She didn't do those things because she wanted to gain something. She just wanted to hurt Kira back then. If she did those things in order to gain something and she was angry when it didn't push through, then she was actually being naive to think something like that could make her gain something she wanted. Quote:
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Seriously... You point your finger at the very obvious bad guy who did lots of things to attact attention to himself but never question those who for all we know could amaze us with his sheer genius in evading that judgment just because he was calm, cool, and collected and definitely not evil the way we know evil is (Zala, Djibril, Azrael VS Dullindal, Rau)? Then we brand him as such because what he was doing was not the good that we know of (Dullindal, other bad guys and Lacus)? What rather obvious details? That she slept with Kira? That she was a psycho bitch? That she manipulated Kira? That she got angry at Kira for being a Coordinator then using him so that Kira could destroy himself? Once people see the evil faults openly, then they just surmise that person as the aforementioned evil character without trying to delve into his personality deeper. Why he acted that way, why he's so pissed off at the entire world. It wasn't that they were unobservant, rather, these were the only things that they openly observed about Fllay, and so equate her with it without going into the finer details of her character. Quote:
It's not like she's foil for Fllay one second then completely not so the next. If that is so, then Lacus' personality has taken an even lower level for me. Are you saying Lacus is not Lacus without Fllay at her side? Quote:
They have similar roles in the story, which I have pointed out, and kodachrome also pointed out. Something in which Kira had to choose...one Goddess was leading him down a path to become a killing machine bent on war while the other GODDESS was leading him to a path of love and peace and lots of pink swirly dust. But this Goddess changed, and somehow could've led Kira to a more believable path of peace and love if she was still alive and the other GODDESS still did not change and led Kira to a path that vaporized any little love I have left for his character, the path to absolute GODHOOD. How are their roles any different? @ Deacon Blues Character "carry-overs" from SEED + WTF character "development" (glare at Kira tachi) could be considered why Destiny failed in some ways, so...
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