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Old 2022-06-08, 23:01   Link #161
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakato View Post
But the loss of impulsiveness and capriciousness does. These are the hallmark of children which they learn to curb as they grow older.
No, it really doesn't. None of this is a substitute for life experience or the ability to think critically.

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If she was a child and incompetent as you claim, then she would've backed out of her choice to become an executioner as soon as the going got tough, but she didn't. No matter how hard the training got she never complained or entertained the idea of giving up. This is resolve.
She did not back out because this was all she knew. Her relationship with Flare was already unhealthy, no surprise that it leads to Menou making unhealthy choices. Her being resolved does not mean the choices she's making are good for her or even that circumstances behind said choices are good.

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And how is that Flare's fault?
Flare treating a child, one that has been through unbelievable trauma no less, as if her choices are valid instead of stopping her from being a murderer is indeed her fault.

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...No. Manipulation takes work. There is a lack of work here and you're only claim to it is after Menou made her own choice.
The fact that Menou was hanging around Flare for how long while in an extremely vulnerable state is not work to you?

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They're not even close, especially when the result isn't what they wanted. You said it yourself. Momo is loyal to Menou and Menou alone. She wouldn't hesitate to betray the Church for Menou. Their were a whole bunch of kids in Menou's class, yet Momo was the only one who was "brainwashed"?
Again, as long as Menou is loyal to the Church, in practice it's the same result.
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Old 2022-06-09, 06:53   Link #162
Rasty
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^ As for the choice, she had the choice to follow Flare or stay in the middle of nowhere alone not knowing what to do. Even later on she never learned any other way to live. All she knew was Flare's way. Even if she wasn't already dependent on her mentally, she had no other choice except for jumping into the dark scary unknown world and finding out how to live another way (and what guarantee she had it wouldn't be worse? She knew nothing about the world). That's not something a child (especially as lethargic as Menou was) could easily do.
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Old 2022-06-09, 22:07   Link #163
bakato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
No, it really doesn't. None of this is a substitute for life experience or the ability to think critically.

She did not back out because this was all she knew. Her relationship with Flare was already unhealthy, no surprise that it leads to Menou making unhealthy choices. Her being resolved does not mean the choices she's making are good for her or even that circumstances behind said choices are good.

Flare treating a child, one that has been through unbelievable trauma no less, as if her choices are valid instead of stopping her from being a murderer is indeed her fault.

The fact that Menou was hanging around Flare for how long while in an extremely vulnerable state is not work to you?

Again, as long as Menou is loyal to the Church, in practice it's the same result.
Thinking critically means nothing if you let your mood decide your choices. As for career choices, that is a matter of heart and being properly informed so as to have realistic expectations.

Instead of seeing murder and calling it unhealthy, how about some actual examples? Not everyone seeks an easy job that will give them a cushy life and it's neither wrong nor right on their part. The gruesome work of an executioner does not make it an intrinsically terrible choice for everyone. While the circumstances behind their relationship was tragic, Flare's conduct wasn't worthy of criticism. She never faked her persona in front of Menou in an sinister attempt to manipulate her choices or misinform her and simply told her the truth with no ulterior motive, which is exactly what Menou needed. The truth here is that Menou wanted to do this fully knowing what it entailed. She was neither misinformed nor under duress.

It's one thing to treat someone as a child and another as an invalid. Menou was neither. She had no memory of what she's lost, much less any feelings of loss or joy over it, much less trauma. Yet she retained full cognitive abilities to learn, think, and feel. The indisputable truth here is that Menou wanted to do this fully knowing what it entailed. She was neither misinformed nor under duress. She could've walked away at any time and it's not like she was never exposed to other ways of life. Her journeys with Flare took her through other civilian populations where she no doubt witnessed less gruesome lifestyles. To pity her choice as the action of a child or invalid is insulting.

Except its completely different than what you claimed. Obviously, you haven't been watching this show, but Momo was the total opposite of who she is now during her supposed "brainwashing."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasty View Post
^ As for the choice, she had the choice to follow Flare or stay in the middle of nowhere alone not knowing what to do. Even later on she never learned any other way to live. All she knew was Flare's way. Even if she wasn't already dependent on her mentally, she had no other choice except for jumping into the dark scary unknown world and finding out how to live another way (and what guarantee she had it wouldn't be worse? She knew nothing about the world). That's not something a child (especially as lethargic as Menou was) could easily do.
Flare offered to hear out any requests, but she didn't have any which was fair considering she got bleached. So she gave her some money and took her leave. I will remind you that you were all bitching about how Flare was some unhealthy influence so don't complain about this. When Menou decided to follow her, Flare accompanied her back to civilization like a decent adult at which point Menou would be free to do what she wanted.

When she got back to civilization, she could've taken up Flare on her previous offer to be left in safer care, but she continued to accompany Flare on several assassinations of lost ones, which must have taken her through numerous civilian populations and exposed her to other less gruesome lifestyles. And there's no way Flare actually involved her in assassinations. As we can infer from the harbor scene, Flare probably just left her someplace safe until she finished her business and picked her up. So no, she was not scared to leave the life of executioner because she didn't have it to begin with.
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Old 2022-06-09, 23:34   Link #164
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakato View Post
Thinking critically means nothing if you let your mood decide your choices.
Never said it didn't. It still didn't change the fact that Menou was of neither the age nor mental condition to making choices that would affect the entire rest of her life.

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As for career choices, that is a matter of heart and being properly informed so as to have realistic expectations.
How can she have realistic expectations when she does not have any life experiences to determine what those are?

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Instead of seeing murder and calling it unhealthy, how about some actual examples?
Putting aside the obvious mental toll that murder has placed on Menou, a child should not be put into a position where they should be making the choice of about starting a lifelong career in anything, much less murder.

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Not everyone seeks an easy job that will give them a cushy life and it's neither wrong nor right on their part. The gruesome work of an executioner does not make it an intrinsically terrible choice for everyone.
This is the sort of decision you make when you're an adult, not an impressionable child.

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While the circumstances behind their relationship was tragic, Flare's conduct wasn't worthy of criticism. She never faked her persona in front of Menou in an sinister attempt to manipulate her choices or misinform her and simply told her the truth with no ulterior motive, which is exactly what Menou needed.
Why would she need to fake her persona, when Menou had already imprinted on her and treated her word as the next thing to God?

You don't seem to get that such a relationship is rife for manipulation, which is exactly what Flare did to get herself a successor.

If Flare was really looking out for Menou's best interests, she would found a nice family or so for her to grow up in and not allow her to become a killer.

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The truth here is that Menou wanted to do this fully knowing what it entailed. She was neither misinformed nor under duress.
Just because Menou thinks she knows what it entails doesn't mean she actually did, because she was a child.

The fact that her for all intents and purposes mother, who happens to be the only human relationship she has is the one has already made her choice to follow after her suspect.

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It's one thing to treat someone as a child and another as an invalid. Menou was neither.
Menou actually was a child and a particularly vulnerable one at that. Getting her whole identity bleached away did not turn her into a mini-adult.

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She had no memory of what she's lost, much less any feelings of loss or joy over it, much less trauma.
Again, amnesia doesn't make children into adults.

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Yet she retained full cognitive abilities to learn, think, and feel.
At the level of a child, not an adult.

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She was neither misinformed nor under duress. She could've walked away at any time
If you actually believe this, I have a bridge in New York I'd like to sell you.

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Her journeys with Flare took her through other civilian populations where she no doubt witnessed less gruesome lifestyles.
The operative word here is through. They never stayed anywhere long enough for Menou to establish any relationships other than the one she had with Flare. That would the work of staying in one place for years.

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Except its completely different than what you claimed. Obviously, you haven't been watching this show, but Momo was the total opposite of who she is now during her supposed "brainwashing."
And why do you think she changed exactly? That place they were in was designed to turn people into zealots. The environment there did as designed on Momo, she just picked the wrong target.

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Flare offered to hear out any requests, but she didn't have any which was fair considering she got bleached. So she gave her some money and took her leave.
In the middle of nowhere? Sure that was a perfect fair and valid option for an amnesiac child.

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I will remind you that you were all bitching about how Flare was some unhealthy influence so don't complain about this. When Menou decided to follow her, Flare accompanied her back to civilization like a decent adult at which point Menou would be free to do what she wanted.

When she got back to civilization, she could've taken up Flare on her previous offer to be left in safer care, but she continued to accompany Flare on several assassinations of lost ones, which must have taken her through numerous civilian populations and exposed her to other less gruesome lifestyles.
Menou was a child. Flare should not have allowed her to make any choices about her own care. If you as an adult know that you have an undue amount of influence over this child due to uncontrollable circumstances, you don't exploit it.

If Flare meant her any good, she would found somewhere safe for her to stay and left her there.
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Last edited by Endscape; 2022-06-10 at 08:23.
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Old 2022-06-10, 17:37   Link #165
Liddo-kun
is this so?
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
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episode 11:

that's a surprising reveal by Pandemonium. There's indeed a way back to Japan.

even if she's the weakest human error.. it's impossible for Meno and Ashuna to defeat her. Can only seal her back into the fog.

looking forward to next week.

________

oh, and the Tomoshibi Serenade cd I ordered from CDJapan has arrived. ^^

it sounds so nice.


Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2022-06-10 at 18:32.
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Old 2022-06-10, 23:19   Link #166
bakato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Never said it didn't. It still didn't change the fact that Menou was of neither the age nor mental condition to making choices that would affect the entire rest of her life.

How can she have realistic expectations when she does not have any life experiences to determine what those are?

Putting aside the obvious mental toll that murder has placed on Menou, a child should not be put into a position where they should be making the choice of about starting a lifelong career in anything, much less murder.

This is the sort of decision you make when you're an adult, not an impressionable child.

Why would she need to fake her persona, when Menou had already imprinted on her and treated her word as the next thing to God?

You don't seem to get that such a relationship is rife for manipulation, which is exactly what Flare did to get herself a successor.

If Flare was really looking out for Menou's best interests, she would found a nice family or so for her to grow up in and not allow her to become a killer.

Just because Menou thinks she knows what it entails doesn't mean she actually did, because she was a child.

The fact that her for all intents and purposes mother, who happens to be the only human relationship she has is the one has already made her choice to follow after her suspect.

Menou actually was a child and a particularly vulnerable one at that. Getting her whole identity bleached away did not turn her into a mini-adult.

Again, amnesia doesn't make children into adults.

At the level of a child, not an adult.

If you actually believe this, I have a bridge in New York I'd like to sell you.

The operative word here is through. They never stayed anywhere long enough for Menou to establish any relationships other than the one she had with Flare. That would the work of staying in one place for years.

And why do you think she changed exactly? That place they were in was designed to turn people into zealots. The environment there did as designed on Momo, she just picked the wrong target.

In the middle of nowhere? Sure that was a perfect fair and valid option for an amnesiac child.

Menou was a child. Flare should not have allowed her to make any choices about her own care. If you as an adult know that you have an undue amount of influence over this child due to uncontrollable circumstances, you don't exploit it.

If Flare meant her any good, she would found somewhere safe for her to stay and left her there.
Her choices. Not yours.

Flare fucking told her what the job entailed. So how was Menou mislead?

Do you listen to yourself? You say there's a mental toll yet she chose to to become an executioner? And there's nothing to say this was going to be lifelong. She had any number of chances to get out and she hasn't taken them.

She is neither child nor impressionable.

God didn't tell her to become an executioner. If anything she tried Menou to dissuade Menou. It is a matter of intent. Flare didn't intend on making any sort of impression on Menou in an attempt to manipulate her choices.

Nor does it make her a child.

It's not amnesia.

And what reason do you have to believe her cognition wasn't on the level of an adult?

If she decided to walk away, what was stopping her? Flare would've respected her wishes.

Honesty is not manipulation. Flare didn't act any different around Menou. Prove to me she was.

If you think Menou never so much as talked to anyone else other than Flare all that time then you're an idiot. If you think she never experienced other people living more benign occupations like fruit sellers in a market place, then you're retarded. There's your experience. You rant about experience and whatnot, but Menou never experience the life of an executioner any more than she did with innkeepers, church people, or really any other person living out their normal lives.

I already established that their lifestyle had nothing to brainwash people. If you bothered to watch the episode you'd realize that. If you bothered to actually read my post, then you'd know that this zealot producing environment did nothing to her. She was crying how she hated killing and anyone who'd entertain that idea to Menou, which spurred her to make a deal to release everyone else. It was literally Menou who won her heart. Stop making up crap.

You were just bitching about how Flare was a toxic influence. I will add that their "relationship" you keep whining about was built off of a relatively benign exchange of queries and answers. Hardly anything to influence her mind you keep calling impressionable.

And how exactly was Flare exploiting it?
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Old 2022-06-11, 12:53   Link #167
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakato View Post
Flare fucking told her what the job entailed. So how was Menou mislead?
Menou imprinted on Flare like a duckling. Her desire to be just like Flare overrode any other concerns for her. Flare surely knew this and let her do this job anyway.

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Do you listen to yourself? You say there's a mental toll yet she chose to to become an executioner? And there's nothing to say this was going to be lifelong. She had any number of chances to get out and she hasn't taken them.
Menou is operating under the sunk cost fallacy. She feels that since she is already a murderer, she has to stick with this job, which is exactly why Flare should not have allowed her to do it in the first place.

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She is neither child nor impressionable.
She is a literal child, no older than 10 years old. 10 year olds don't make good choices in general, not to mention her identity was bleached away and her only human relationship was a assassin.

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God didn't tell her to become an executioner. If anything she tried Menou to dissuade Menou. It is a matter of intent. Flare didn't intend on making any sort of impression on Menou in an attempt to manipulate her choices.
Menou had already imprinted on Flare because of the identity bleaching. Someone in that state could not make any good choices, not to mention an actual child.

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Nor does it make her a child.
Again, she is a literal child.

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It's not amnesia.
It's worse.

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And what reason do you have to believe her cognition wasn't on the level of an adult?
Because she is a child.

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If she decided to walk away, what was stopping her? Flare would've respected her wishes.

Honesty is not manipulation. Flare didn't act any different around Menou. Prove to me she was.
She wouldn't leave because she had already imprinted on Flare. In this state, Menou would be even less capable than a normal child of making good choices which is what made it so easy for Flare to manipulate her.

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If you think Menou never so much as talked to anyone else other than Flare all that time then you're an idiot. If you think she never experienced other people living more benign occupations like fruit sellers in a market place, then you're retarded.
Perhaps you don't know, but it takes more than just talking to someone to establish a relationship with them. No doubt Menou talked to bunch of people and saw a lot of places, but considering her already warped relationship with Flare, I highly doubt she spent any enough time with anyone to learn how to see life any differently.


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I already established that their lifestyle had nothing to brainwash people. If you bothered to watch the episode you'd realize that. If you bothered to actually read my post, then you'd know that this zealot producing environment did nothing to her. She was crying how she hated killing and anyone who'd entertain that idea to Menou, which spurred her to make a deal to release everyone else. It was literally Menou who won her heart. Stop making up crap.
If you could read between the lines for a second, you might notice that while the environment did not work on making Momo a zealot for the church, it worked on making her a zealot for Menou.

This is why, years later, losing a ribbon causes her to go on a rampage while screaming that she hates everyone except Menou. That place altered the way she behaved, which is the whole point of taking kids and isolating them from the world.

I don't doubt that her feelings for Menou are genuine, it's how she expresses them and uses them to justify her other behaviour that has been twisted by her upbringing.

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And how exactly was Flare exploiting it?
She took a child who had lost all her memories, emotions and identity and sent her off to become an assassin.
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Old 2022-06-11, 14:54   Link #168
bakato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Menou imprinted on Flare like a duckling. Her desire to be just like Flare overrode any other concerns for her. Flare surely knew this and let her do this job anyway.

Menou is operating under the sunk cost fallacy. She feels that since she is already a murderer, she has to stick with this job, which is exactly why Flare should not have allowed her to do it in the first place.

She is a literal child, no older than 10 years old. 10 year olds don't make good choices in general, not to mention her identity was bleached away and her only human relationship was a assassin.

Menou had already imprinted on Flare because of the identity bleaching. Someone in that state could not make any good choices, not to mention an actual child.

Again, she is a literal child.

It's worse.

Because she is a child.

She wouldn't leave because she had already imprinted on Flare. In this state, Menou would be even less capable than a normal child of making good choices which is what made it so easy for Flare to manipulate her.

Perhaps you don't know, but it takes more than just talking to someone to establish a relationship with them. No doubt Menou talked to bunch of people and saw a lot of places, but considering her already warped relationship with Flare, I highly doubt she spent any enough time with anyone to learn how to see life any differently.

If you could read between the lines for a second, you might notice that while the environment did not work on making Momo a zealot for the church, it worked on making her a zealot for Menou.

This is why, years later, losing a ribbon causes her to go on a rampage while screaming that she hates everyone except Menou. That place altered the way she behaved, which is the whole point of taking kids and isolating them from the world.

I don't doubt that her feelings for Menou are genuine, it's how she expresses them and uses them to justify her other behaviour that has been twisted by her upbringing.

She took a child who had lost all her memories, emotions and identity and sent her off to become an assassin.
She desired to be like Flare after being with her for some time. What other concerns did she have?

More made up up bullshit. Give one example where Menou feels like she's too far gone. Menou has exhibited remorse for the necessity of her actions as any healthy person in this line of work should, but continues to do it because she believes it is necessary for the greater good. You say she wants to be like Flare and now you say she wants to stop but feels like she can't?

Classic case of ageism. One's age does not preclude the validity of one's judgement and choices. There are physical adults with the minds of children. Do you think them capable of making sound decisions?

If Menou was as suggestible as you claim, then she would've imprinted on anyone. Passing the her off to someone else is still tantamount to making choices for her. Would you have still protested if she decided to become a farmer after she was raised by a farmer?

And yet that is all she and Flare did: talk. She didn't even know Flare's name until Flare took her to the salt continent, which was after several assassination missions. And until then, she said she didn't feel anything in particular about the fact that Flare was an executioner, which is something she only pieced together on her own.

If you could actually read or even watch, you'd have known I pointed out how there was nothing about that environment meant to brainwash anyone and Momo was never a zealot for anything until Menou freed everyone.

Sure, if you just ignore how Flare didn't talk to her all that much during their time together, not even knowing her name or witnessing her executioner work.
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Last edited by bakato; 2022-06-11 at 15:37.
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Old 2022-06-12, 02:24   Link #169
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakato View Post
She desired to be like Flare after being with her for some time. What other concerns did she have?
The fact that she lost her whole identity for one.

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Classic case of ageism. One's age does not preclude the validity of one's judgement and choices.
But it does preclude the sort of activities one should be allowed to do. There's a reason that children of that age aren't allowed to vote for example.

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If Menou was as suggestible as you claim, then she would've imprinted on anyone.
Anyone was not the first person she met.

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Passing the her off to someone else is still tantamount to making choices for her. Would you have still protested if she decided to become a farmer after she was raised by a farmer?
No I would not, for obvious reasons.

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If you could actually read or even watch, you'd have known I pointed out how there was nothing about that environment meant to brainwash anyone and Momo was never a zealot for anything until Menou freed everyone.
Isolating children from society is already a form of brainwashing meant to foster obsessive behaviour. The only difference with Momo is that she became obsessed with Menou, not the Faust.
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Old 2022-06-12, 16:09   Link #170
bakato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
The fact that she lost her whole identity for one.

But it does preclude the sort of activities one should be allowed to do. There's a reason that children of that age aren't allowed to vote for example.

Anyone was not the first person she met.

No I would not, for obvious reasons.

Isolating children from society is already a form of brainwashing meant to foster obsessive behaviour. The only difference with Momo is that she became obsessed with Menou, not the Faust.
How could she be concerned over a lost identity she can't even remember?

And there are adults with minds of children locked in asylums who are mentally incompetent and incapable of making sound decisions. But they meet your age requirements so do you disagree and think they should be allowed to make their own decisions?

Don't dodge the question. If it was anyone else, you'd still be bitching.

By your argument, this is also manipulation and exploiting her condition into making specific choices. You're obvious reason is that you're prejudiced against this occupation in particular so you call someone incompetent and cite their age as a reason that this specific choice was the result of sinister manipulation.

And you just ignored everything I just said. So I will repeat myself.

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If you could actually read or even watch, you'd have known I pointed out how there was nothing about that environment meant to brainwash anyone and Momo was never a zealot for anything until Menou freed everyone.
Do you even know what brainwashing means? Do you think schools are brainwashing their students?
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Last edited by bakato; 2022-06-12 at 16:32.
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Old 2022-06-12, 17:41   Link #171
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakato View Post
How could she be concerned over a lost identity she can't even remember?
Anyone would be concerned if they find themselves existing without any memories.

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And there are adults with minds of children locked in asylums who are mentally incompetent and incapable of making sound decisions. But they meet your age requirements so do you disagree and think they should be allowed to make their own decisions?
Obviously people with mental issues depending on the situation aren't allowed to make decisions about their life.

This doesn't mean kids younger than 10 should be allowed to make decisions like that either.

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Don't dodge the question. If it was anyone else, you'd still be bitching.
Anyone else probably wouldn't have taken advantage of her condition to turn her into a murderer.

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By your argument, this is also manipulation and exploiting her condition into making specific choices. You're obvious reason is that you're prejudiced against this occupation in particular so you call someone incompetent and cite their age as a reason that this specific choice was the result of sinister manipulation.
The difference is that you can quit being a farmer any time you want. You can't undo becoming a murderer. Again, there is a reason things like child soldiers are considered war crimes.

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Do you even know what brainwashing means? Do you think schools are brainwashing their students?
Normal schools don't isolate their students from society.

The Executioner training academy Menou and Momo attended was specifically located in the middle of nowhere precisely so they could change how the kids thought to make them better suited for their job.
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Old 2022-06-13, 23:23   Link #172
bakato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Anyone would be concerned if they find themselves existing without any memories.

Obviously people with mental issues depending on the situation aren't allowed to make decisions about their life.

This doesn't mean kids younger than 10 should be allowed to make decisions like that either.

Anyone else probably wouldn't have taken advantage of her condition to turn her into a murderer.

The difference is that you can quit being a farmer any time you want. You can't undo becoming a murderer. Again, there is a reason things like child soldiers are considered war crimes.

Normal schools don't isolate their students from society.

The Executioner training academy Menou and Momo attended was specifically located in the middle of nowhere precisely so they could change how the kids thought to make them better suited for their job.
Not anyone was bleached of their identity by supernatural forces.

So obviously, age is not the deciding factor. It's mental competence.

See how you keep going back to murderer? It speaks to your prejudice. You accused Flare of exploiting Menou’s condition, but you wouldn’t make the same accusation against anyone else because the career they chose was more to your liking. Hypocritically, you wouldn't even ask Menou what she wanted before unceremoniously dumping her in the career of your choosing, exploiting the same condition you accuse Flare of.

Quit and undo. Amazing analogy. You can't "undo" being a farmer either, but you can quit. Child soldiers generally aren't given a choice, much less tell their guardian they want to become one. Nor are they given the option to quit during their training. So basically, it's nothing like child soldiers.

Schools keep children for nearly a third of the day while another third is spent sleeping. And then there are boarding and military schools.

You know there are nunneries and monasteries right? Isolation has many benign motives and it's only half the story. Isolating alone does not brainwash. And again, I repeat, if Momo was brainwashed then why was she the only one that became a yandere for Menou?
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Last edited by bakato; 2022-06-13 at 23:43.
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Old 2022-06-14, 00:47   Link #173
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakato View Post
Not anyone was bleached of their identity by supernatural forces.
And why would this keep Menou from potentially caring about this again?

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So obviously, age is not the deciding factor. It's mental competence.
You keep ignoring this, but children are indeed not mentally competent to make certain decisions.

Really, I would say anyone of any age in Menou's condition really should not have been making those sorts of decisions at all, but the fact that she was a child makes it worse.

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See how you keep going back to murderer? It speaks to your prejudice. You accused Flare of exploiting Menou’s condition, but you wouldn’t make the same accusation against anyone else because the career they chose was more to your liking.
Yes, you've caught me. I don't think people should take advantage of vulnerable children to turn them into killers.

I also don't think being an assassin is the same as being a farmer. No one gets PTSD or hates themself because they are a farmer.

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Hypocritically, you wouldn't even ask Menou what she wanted before unceremoniously dumping her in the career of your choosing, exploiting the same condition you accuse Flare of.
That would only be hypocrisy if I was under the insane impression that being a killer was the same as any other job.

I said she should have been given into the care of someone else and been treated like the child that she is.

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Quit and undo. Amazing analogy. You can't "undo" being a farmer either, but you can quit.
Again, farmers don't get PTSD or hate themselves for committing murder.

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Child soldiers generally aren't given a choice, much less tell their guardian they want to become one. Nor are they given the option to quit during their training. So basically, it's nothing like child soldiers.
Menou was a child in an extremely vulnerable position, being manipulated by a master manipulator. She barely had a choice at all.

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Schools keep children for nearly a third of the day while another third is spent sleeping. And then there are boarding and military schools.
None of these places deliberately isolate you from the rest of society.

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You know there are nunneries and monasteries right?
Children don't normally live there and if they do, they don't isolate them from society.

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Isolation has many benign motives and it's only half the story. Isolating alone does not brainwash.
You also need indoctrination, which lo and behold, we see them doing too.

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And again, I repeat, if Momo was brainwashed then why was she the only one that became a yandere for Menou?
You do realize this is not as simple as programming a TiVO, right? Brainwashing does not take on everyone. In Momo's case, the zealotry in her was simply expressed in a different manner.
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Old 2022-06-14, 05:37   Link #174
Applehell
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Caught with the last episodes. This had been but pretty sold series but the recent weeks have really step things up a notch. Pandemonium is a fantastic "larger than life villain" that showcase the Human Errors as truly apocalyptical threats they have been teased to be. Given that she is just one of 3, I shudder to think what rest are like. Its more understandable now why the world powers (government, church) would take a harsher stance against outworlders and any one who summons them after seeing one in action and considering they nearly destroyed their world 4 times over. It rather tough situation because the outworlders are generally victims too.

There is a lot curious information provide over the course of these. Of particular note: why the Church erased the existence of Ivory Hero despite using its help containing them? I also wonder if outworlders are destined to be one with their Pure Concepts going by Pan said about their power existing for the world itself.

Last edited by Applehell; 2022-06-14 at 16:12.
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Old 2022-06-14, 07:16   Link #175
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What is kinda missing is a real struggle. Oh no, Pandemonium is a big threat. Anyway, Menou easily handles everything Pandemonium throws at her. Oh no, Menou is running out of mana, errr, ether. Anyway, Princess Ashuna comes to the rescue in the nick of time! I kinda wonder what rabbit Menou is going to pull out of her hat next week to deal with GIANT Pandemonium. Oh no!
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Old 2022-06-14, 23:00   Link #176
bakato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
And why would this keep Menou from potentially caring about this again?

You keep ignoring this, but children are indeed not mentally competent to make certain decisions.

Really, I would say anyone of any age in Menou's condition really should not have been making those sorts of decisions at all, but the fact that she was a child makes it worse.

Yes, you've caught me. I don't think people should take advantage of vulnerable children to turn them into killers.

I also don't think being an assassin is the same as being a farmer. No one gets PTSD or hates themself because they are a farmer.

That would only be hypocrisy if I was under the insane impression that being a killer was the same as any other job.

I said she should have been given into the care of someone else and been treated like the child that she is.

Again, farmers don't get PTSD or hate themselves for committing murder.

Menou was a child in an extremely vulnerable position, being manipulated by a master manipulator. She barely had a choice at all.

None of these places deliberately isolate you from the rest of society.

Children don't normally live there and if they do, they don't isolate them from society.

You also need indoctrination, which lo and behold, we see them doing too.

You do realize this is not as simple as programming a TiVO, right? Brainwashing does not take on everyone. In Momo's case, the zealotry in her was simply expressed in a different manner.
You can't be concerned over that which you don't remember even having.

And why not? We're not talking about children in general. We're talking about this child. Menou expressed interest in being an executioner with no prodding from Flare. She had no more experience with the job of an executioner than she had with other lifestyles she undoubtedly witnessed whilst traveling with Flare. Flare barely talked to her as evident by the fact that Menou didn't even know her name. And yet, she chose the path of an executioner, to be Flare. This speaks to her own personal passions rather than an act of childish capriciousness that makes them incompetent. It's not unlike Shirou being inspired to be like Kiritsugu.

So you're a dick and a hypocrite. Just say that next time instead of trying to take the moral high ground.

Menou has neither PTSD or a farmer.

You can cut the bullshit now. You're only leg for accusing Flare of being manipulative is being present.

Children aren't generally allowed to just waltz out of school whenever they feel like it.

We did not. I keep asking you what about this was brainwashing but you've been ignoring the question. Since you already admitted to being a hypocrite why not just give up?

And again, Momo was abhorrent to the idea of killing and anyone who'd entertain the idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Applehell View Post
Caught with the last episodes. This had been but pretty sold series but the recent weeks have really step things up a notch. Pandemonium is a fantastic "larger than life villain" that showcase the Human Errors as truly apocalyptical threats they have been teased to be. Given that she is just one of 3, I shudder to think what rest are like. Its more understandable now why the world powers (government, church) would take a harsher stance against outworlders and any one who summons them after seeing one in action and considering they nearly destroyed their world 4 times over. It rather tough situation because the outworlders are generally victims too.

There is a lot curious information provide over the course of these. Of particular note: why the Church erased the existence of Ivory Hero despite using its help containing them? I also wonder if outworlders are destined to be one with their Pure Concepts going by Pan said about their power existing for the world itself.
One of four.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
What is kinda missing is a real struggle. Oh no, Pandemonium is a big threat. Anyway, Menou easily handles everything Pandemonium throws at her. Oh no, Menou is running out of mana, errr, ether. Anyway, Princess Ashuna comes to the rescue in the nick of time! I kinda wonder what rabbit Menou is going to pull out of her hat next week to deal with GIANT Pandemonium. Oh no!
Menou was only handling Pandemonium's waves of monsters. She had no method of actually harming Pandemonium, much less winning.
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Old 2022-06-15, 11:15   Link #177
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakato View Post
You can't be concerned over that which you don't remember even having.
You can however be concerned about existing without any memories.

Quote:
And why not? We're not talking about children in general. We're talking about this child.
And now we return to this strange idea you have that Menou, as a result of losing all her memories and identity is somehow competent to make adult decisions, because she who had her whole identity bleached away decided to copy the first person she saw as if that's not an extremely messed up thing.

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Menou expressed interest in being an executioner with no prodding from Flare.
She literally lost all her memories and identity and imprinted on the first person she saw. You seem to highly underestimate how vulnerable a position Menou was in.

Even if I believed that Flare didn't manipulate her into this job (Flare is a master manipulator and Menou a more vulnerable to normal child), Flare is still to blame for indulging her.

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It's not unlike Shirou being inspired to be like Kiritsugu.
How did I know you were going to use this surface level analysis? Kiritsugu all his many flaws aside tried to keep Shirou from following his path after him. He even taught him magic incorrectly just so he'd quit.

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So you're a dick and a hypocrite. Just say that next time instead of trying to take the moral high ground.
Insulting me is still not an explanation of how being an assassin is somehow equivalent to any other job, especially when you're making a child do it.

Quote:
You can cut the bullshit now. You're only leg for accusing Flare of being manipulative is being present.
Flare is a master manipulator. It's literally her specialty and she spent a year in the company of perhaps the easiest to manipulate child ever and I'm supposed to believe she never did it, even though said vulnerable child ended up 'deciding' to be her successor? Sure.

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Children aren't generally allowed to just waltz out of school whenever they feel like it.
Children generally go home after school. Boarding school students go home during vacations. They are not cut off from all outside contact.

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We did not. I keep asking you what about this was brainwashing but you've been ignoring the question. Since you already admitted to being a hypocrite why not just give up?
We literally see scenes of them teaching the kids how to commit murder against Lost Ones.

Quote:
And again, Momo was abhorrent to the idea of killing and anyone who'd entertain the idea.
Yet, current Momo is A-OK with murder and torture as long as it's in aid to Menou. The brainwashing worked on her, just not quite as intended.
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Old 2022-06-15, 23:44   Link #178
bakato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
You can however be concerned about existing without any memories.

And now we return to this strange idea you have that Menou, as a result of losing all her memories and identity is somehow competent to make adult decisions, because she who had her whole identity bleached away decided to copy the first person she saw as if that's not an extremely messed up thing.

She literally lost all her memories and identity and imprinted on the first person she saw. You seem to highly underestimate how vulnerable a position Menou was in.

Even if I believed that Flare didn't manipulate her into this job (Flare is a master manipulator and Menou a more vulnerable to normal child), Flare is still to blame for indulging her.

How did I know you were going to use this surface level analysis? Kiritsugu all his many flaws aside tried to keep Shirou from following his path after him. He even taught him magic incorrectly just so he'd quit.

Insulting me is still not an explanation of how being an assassin is somehow equivalent to any other job, especially when you're making a child do it.

Flare is a master manipulator. It's literally her specialty and she spent a year in the company of perhaps the easiest to manipulate child ever and I'm supposed to believe she never did it, even though said vulnerable child ended up 'deciding' to be her successor? Sure.

Children generally go home after school. Boarding school students go home during vacations. They are not cut off from all outside contact.

We literally see scenes of them teaching the kids how to commit murder against Lost Ones.

Yet, current Momo is A-OK with murder and torture as long as it's in aid to Menou. The brainwashing worked on her, just not quite as intended.
This girl didn't even care when she learned Flare killed.

Because they are irrelevant. The Menou before being bleached is effectively dead. This is a brand new Menou who should be treated as a separate entity. Competence has nothing to with identity or memories, at least not directly. It is merely a matter of being properly informed and developing realistic expectations. When it comes to career paths, it is a matter of passion and interest, which for the young should be entertained.

So the first person she saw would be guilty of manipulating her according to your criteria. I pointed this out and you admitted to being a hypocrite.

More baseless accusations.

Kiritsugu warned Shirou of the difficulties of his path just as Flare did with hers. And Kiritsugu never noticed Shirou was practicing magic wrong. In the end neither Shirou nor Menou were deterred because their ideals and goals were something that welled from their very being.

You already admitted your hypocrisy and I already pointed out the flaws in your argument.

Proof? I keep asking you so how about providing some? You don't have proof because since the beginning of this argument your only proof was Menou's condition and Flare being present.

Not that such contact matters when they're being educated for a third of their day.

Yes, they are training to be executioners. That's part of the job description. Hardly brainwashing. I'm beginning to think you don't know what the word means.

Just Momo. Out of dozens of kids, only her.
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Old 2022-06-16, 00:54   Link #179
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakato View Post
This girl didn't even care when she learned Flare killed.
Which is in itself a proof of her disfunction.

Quote:
Because they are irrelevant. The Menou before being bleached is effectively dead. This is a brand new Menou who should be treated as a separate entity.
Still doesn't make her an adult or competent to decide to become a killer.

Quote:
Competence has nothing to with identity or memories, at least not directly. It is merely a matter of being properly informed and developing realistic expectations.
Children do not possess the necessary life experience or proper judgment to develop realistic expectations or even understand what is necessary to be properly informed. Nor would someone who has lost their entire identity. So Menou is doubly unfit, which is why Flare should never have allowed it.

Quote:
When it comes to career paths, it is a matter of passion and interest, which for the young should be entertained.
You need more than passion and interest to choose a career path. And again, Menou was in no state to be even thinking of choosing a career. That's something she should have done after far more years and having gotten better from her condition.

Quote:
So the first person she saw would be guilty of manipulating her according to your criteria. I pointed this out and you admitted to being a hypocrite.
Regardless of Menou's condition, Flare is to blame for taking advantage of her instead of trying to mitigate the situation.

Quote:
More baseless accusations.
Great way to dodge the point.

Quote:
Kiritsugu warned Shirou of the difficulties of his path just as Flare did with hers. And Kiritsugu never noticed Shirou was practicing magic wrong.
Kiritsugu indeed taught him incorrectly on purpose. This was made clear ina F/Z short story.

Quote:
In the end neither Shirou nor Menou were deterred because their ideals and goals were something that welled from their very being.
The point is not about what Shirou or Menou chose to do, it's about whether their guardians took advantage of them.

Quote:
Proof? I keep asking you so how about providing some? You don't have proof because since the beginning of this argument your only proof was Menou's condition and Flare being present.
That in itself is proof. As I pointed out, if Flare was truly not intending to manipulate Menou towards her own ends, she would not have let her become an Executioner, especially a child who was in such a vulnerable position as Menou.

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Not that such contact matters when they're being educated for a third of their day.
This is so stupid it boggles the imagination. Do you actually believe children going to regular day schools are being isolated from society because they spend a third of the weekday in school?

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Yes, they are training to be executioners. That's part of the job description. Hardly brainwashing. I'm beginning to think you don't know what the word means.
When you isolate people from the rest of society it's very easy to change how they think depending on what information you give them.
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Old 2022-06-16, 22:46   Link #180
bakato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Which is in itself a proof of her disfunction.

Still doesn't make her an adult or competent to decide to become a killer.

Children do not possess the necessary life experience or proper judgment to develop realistic expectations or even understand what is necessary to be properly informed. Nor would someone who has lost their entire identity. So Menou is doubly unfit, which is why Flare should never have allowed it.

You need more than passion and interest to choose a career path. And again, Menou was in no state to be even thinking of choosing a career. That's something she should have done after far more years and having gotten better from her condition.

Regardless of Menou's condition, Flare is to blame for taking advantage of her instead of trying to mitigate the situation.

Great way to dodge the point.

Kiritsugu indeed taught him incorrectly on purpose. This was made clear ina F/Z short story.

The point is not about what Shirou or Menou chose to do, it's about whether their guardians took advantage of them.

That in itself is proof. As I pointed out, if Flare was truly not intending to manipulate Menou towards her own ends, she would not have let her become an Executioner, especially a child who was in such a vulnerable position as Menou.

This is so stupid it boggles the imagination. Do you actually believe children going to regular day schools are being isolated from society because they spend a third of the weekday in school?

When you isolate people from the rest of society it's very easy to change how they think depending on what information you give them.
So basically your previous assertion that she was concerned about her past was bullshit. You didn't even remember what you were arguing.

Competence has nothing to with identity or memories, at least not directly. It is merely a matter of being properly informed and developing realistic expectations. When it comes to career paths, it is a matter of passion and interest, which for the young should be entertained in order for them to accumulate the necessary experience to decide their path. I

We're not talking about children. We're talking about this child. Her lack of identity says nothing about her judgement.

Uh, no you don't.

And how did Flare take advantage of her?

You don't have a point. I asked you many times to explain how Flare manipulated her. Answer, dumbass.

So? I assume by the fact that you refuse to address the rest of my post that you have nothing else to say on that matter.

Which they didn't and which you have yet to prove. I will ask you again, how did Flare take advantage of Menou? What part of her interaction with the child was manipulation? She had no more experience with the job of an executioner than she had with other lifestyles she undoubtedly witnessed whilst traveling with Flare. Flare barely talked to her as evident by the fact that Menou didn't even know her name. And yet, she chose the path of an executioner, to be Flare. This speaks to her own personal passions rather than an act of childish capriciousness that makes them incompetent.

Denying someone's choice is coercion. And then leaving her with someone else would be them manipulating her by your definition. In the end, Menou's choice was the result of her own judgement and heart. You do not need to manipulate someone when they chose something of their own volition and judgement. Being in proximity to a child is not manipulation. And why the fuck would Flare want to manipulate her to begin with? There were dozens of other executioners in training.

According to your crude definition of the word, yes.

And what sort of nefarious information were these children given to change the way they think? Basic information about their job and why they're doing it? Since you have so much difficulty parsing this, ask yourself would any of their training and circumstances be different if this wasn't brainwashing? The answer is no because everything that was shown makes logical sense. Executioners have to be skilled combatants and knowledgeable on a variety of subjects so of course they have to be trained from a young age.
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