The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 9]

[GMT]

Originally Posted by Akka

I don't see how I can explain better than : they didn't even try the obvious possibilities.

Obvious possibilities:

A) Throw Haruhi off the roof.
Good: It might end the loop.
Bad: If it ends the loop, they live with the guilt/consequences of murdering their friend. It might also cause the loop to reset immediately. They'd also have to have a level of murderous intent that the SOS-dan clearly lacks.

B) Itsuki does what he threatens and tells Haruhi "I laaauv you!"
Good: It might end the loop.
Bad: By "It might make Suzumiya-san confused" Itsuki means "She's going to create the mother of all closed-spaces." Kyon might also punch his lights out. It would also add a destructive dynamic to the SOS-dan's relationships, and risk exposing Itsuki and his Organization to Haruhi.

C) Kyon takes Itsuki's suggestion and tells Haruhi "Hey Haruhi . . . I love you.
Good: It might end the loop.
Bad: If you thought E8 was bad storywriting, having Kyon go so far out of character would not only break suspension-of-disbelief, it'd beat it with a tire iron and molest it with a telephone pole. From the in-universe perspective, it would seriously strain Haruhi and Kyon's relationship, since both of them spend a good deal of time in complete denial about the extent of what they may or may not feel for each other.

D) Ask Haruhi what she wants to do the next day.
Good: It might end the loop.
Bad: They could just as easily be dragged around for a whole day and still wouldn't meet the loop's termination criteria. Also, given the SOS-dan's standard operating procedure, this is a decision that has to be left to Kyon. He also has to do it spontaneously, since Haruhi would undoubtedly pick up on Kyon being forced to ask. Kyon himself could ask, but we already suspect that Kyon's tripping on idiot pills. That, or he's aware that the result of him asking Haruhi what her plans are could result only in Kyon being broke and exhausted, and the loop would still restart, per-normal . . . so he feels he should work out what Haruhi actually wants before saying anything.

Which, ironically, causes him to spend 595 years over-thinking the problem.

All the counter I saw about that were rationalization about how it could be considered adequate for them to not do it. And that's the problem with rationalization : you can ALWAYS find a way to explain everything if you look hard enough.

I didn't have to look that hard. The character motivations are printed right there on the back of the tin. Everything else flows from that.

When I facepalm because I find glaring holes in their logic and acts in real time, it means that they are acting considerably more stupidly than me, which, unless their stupidity is a plot point, shows that the story is simply bad.
Overlooking the obvious is a very common flaw in weak storyline. It can be forgiven when it's a minor point or consequence-free. When the arc drags on for so long and cause such a ruckus, it becomes inexcusable.

The only people who actually know about the 595 year loop and its consequences are the viewers, and Yuki. To the rest of the SOS-dan, it's heresay. They don't necessarily grasp their predicament on a deep enough level to take it seriously. Especially Kyon.

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by GMT

Everybody in the SOS-dan behaves exactly as you'd expect them to behave in this circumstance. Yuki especially. Arguably, it's in her best interest to be as unhelpful as possible. Remember what her core goals are:

A) Observe Haruhi, which the DITE views as an Outside-Context Problem/Key to Transcendence.
- Subgoal: Protect Haruhi, as she's no good to the DITE if dead.
- Subgoal: Protect Kyon, whom, thanks to meddling on the part of post-Singularity Humanity, is now the Key To Everything.
- Sub-subgoal: Observe Kyon. Observe Kyon and Haruhi.

Being trapped in 595 years of recursion serves her goals perfectly, since it supplies the DITE with 595 years worth of Haruhi physics-bending data. Since Haruhi resets everything at the end of the loop, she's removed post-Singularity Humanity (Mikuru's faction) from the equation. Since they're just doing some harmless summer activities in the loop, it also satisfies the subgoals of protecting Haruhi and Kyon from harm.

And they do ask her, Kyon especially. Her responses seem to be given with the intention of strongly discouraging further inquiry. Instead of volunteering clues which might make the SOS-dan try something stupid which could violate her core goals (i.e. contaminating the data, like Asakura wanted to do, or potentially put Haruhi and Kyon at risk,) she merely data-dumps trivia on Kyon until he gives up in a combination of disgust and despair. And then primly states that it's her duty to observe.

We also know that Mikuru is completely worthless. She has a complete lack of initiative, since for her, being in this period of time is like walking blindfolded through a minefield. She wouldn't dare take any action that wasn't ordered by her superiors. Not to mention, in cases of emergency, her superiors may have given her standing orders to do nothing but wait for Kyon to think of a way out of it. To Mikuru's faction, it's all ancient history, and they have a compulsion to ensure history turns out the way they've recorded it.

One might think that Koizumi could take some sort of action. And he does. He doesn't want to draw undue attention to himself and his Organization, so if he wants Haruhi to do something other than what she wants, he works through Kyon. He investigates his deja vu, builds his case for their endless summer, and then presents it to Kyon. He also has that . . . helpful . . . suggestion on how to end the loop. Which is entirely consistent with his view that Kyon is Haruhi's Chosen One. Kyon, whose density lies somewhere between that of a neutron star and a black hole, chooses to ignore him.

So the SOS-dan has taken just about all the action they can. The fact that they're stuck in a 595 year loop can be blamed almost entirely on Kyon's epic lack of balls and the DITE's desire for lots and lots of consistent data.


Kyon doesn't seem that worried. If anything, he's probably wallowing in Shinji-esque levels of self-pity, his mind focused on such unhelpful thoughts as "I blew it!" and "Whatever, maybe if I pray really hard, Kyon version 15532 will make the stunning realization that I didn't. I'm too depressed about blowing it to do anything."

True, but they didn't do a good job of depicting this explicitly- and with 8 episodes to work with you'd think they could have.

If the animators want to justify stupid actions- great, but they should make sure to give the justification.

[GMT]

Originally Posted by Heatth

I don't believe Kyon thinks like that.

But hell, this work for Itsuki. Don't think he cares about not having school (actually, I think he enjoy study). But not having to worry about Haruhi is surelly good for him. He constantly states he would love if Haruhi loses her powers. And since she don't feel the de va vu, it don't have any danger of her braking out. That might be why she felt so happy (come on, he only seens depressed on the restaurant scene. Even Kyon comment he seens to be enjoying the situation at the park).

It could work for both of them. To Kyon, who hates having to clean up after bizarre situations probably finds this to be refreshing. "Eh, so you're telling me that we're going to repeat summer vacation over and over . . . that I get to screw around for two weeks without having to worry about anything but getting out of the loop, while ogling Asahina-san and Haruhi in various skimpy bathing suits and fashionable outfits? And that Haruhi will wipe our memories at the end of each loop, and the only thing that'll carry over is a bit of deja vu, and I get to experience the next two weeks completely anew? Without worrying that Haruhi will create one of those 'closed space' things, and possibly destroy the Universe in a fit of pique or teen girl emo jealousy? And this is a bad thing . . . because? Oh . . . the viewers? Careful about that fourth wall. It's pretty fragile as-is."

[OkamiNoKaze]

Haha, Deadpool with those powers, ahhh! It would be like when he had Thor's powers, which incidentally came from a story where he thought Loki was his father. and also brings to mind a hilarious image of Deadpool wearing the gold hairband. ooh, there's an idea, maybe Haruhi is daughter of some deity, Eris maybe, that'd be the closest one.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by GMT

It could work for both of them. To Kyon, who hates having to clean up after bizarre situations probably finds this to be refreshing. "Eh, so you're telling me that we're going to repeat summer vacation over and over . . . that I get to screw around for two weeks without having to worry about anything but getting out of the loop, while ogling Asahina-san and Haruhi in various skimpy bathing suits and fashionable outfits? And that Haruhi will wipe our memories at the end of each loop, and the only thing that'll carry over is a bit of deja vu, and I get to experience the next two weeks completely anew? Without worrying that Haruhi will create one of those 'closed space' things, and possibly destroy the Universe in a fit of pique or teen girl emo jealousy? And this is a bad thing . . . because? Oh . . . the viewers? Careful about that fourth wall. It's pretty fragile as-is."

That was great writing.

To add to that, one thing that I'll give EE credit for is that the sheer intensity of "Aaaggghhh... this is wrong!" for Kyon during the final restaurant scene seemed to grow from one episode to the next. Perhaps the level of intensity here during the final loop was simply too high to allow Kyon to lurch back into a comfortable acceptance of an Endless Summer.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by GMT

It could work for both of them. To Kyon, who hates having to clean up after bizarre situations probably finds this to be refreshing.

I... disagree here. Can't say why though. Funny writing, however.

[Trax]

Originally Posted by GMT

D) Ask Haruhi what she wants to do the next day.
Good: It might end the loop.
Bad: They could just as easily be dragged around for a whole day and still wouldn't meet the loop's termination criteria. Also, given the SOS-dan's standard operating procedure, this is a decision that has to be left to Kyon. He also has to do it spontaneously, since Haruhi would undoubtedly pick up on Kyon being forced to ask.

There's a good chance this could have done the trick. I think Haruhi's regret might have been simply that the last day of summer holiday went by without any activity, meaning that almost anything could have worked.

Even if it didn't work, there's no harm in trying. But he didn't.

Kyon's "let's do our homework" outburst wasn't exactly spontaneous either btw.

The only people who actually know about the 595 year loop and its consequences are the viewers, and Yuki. To the rest of the SOS-dan, it's heresay. They don't necessarily grasp their predicament on a deep enough level to take it seriously. Especially Kyon.

Then why does he panic when he realizes he's letting his last chance to fix the loop walk away? That seems to imply that he at least understood the urgency of the situation.

At any rate, I suppose KyoAni did succeed in making this arc memorable (albeit for the wrong reasons) where it otherwise probably wouldn't have been since the conclusion is rather boring.

[Akka]

Originally Posted by Heatth

This goes for you as well right? I mean, you always can think in something they could have done.

The difference is that rationalization is trying to find ways to explain something that felt absurd at first.
While what makes this thing feel absurd is that the characters didn't think of the glaringly obvious attempts that should logically have been made.

A good storytelling avoid this flaw by making the characters act at least seemingly logically/smartly. Of course, after a moment thinking about it, you can find many options they didn't use. But at least it's options you have to think about, not the ones which jump in your face.

What makes someone look stupid is precisely that he don't find the obvious, well, obvious. If you have to explain why they didn't think about the obvious, it's often (not always, but in this case it definitely is) a hint that they were, in fact, pretty stupid.

As I said, I really don't imagine Yuki or Mikuru acting different. Only Kyon and, maybe, Itsuki. However, you don't need rationalization to know why Kyon was being dumb. He said it at the end of every episode, he always can try latter.

He always looked quite devastated thinking about the torture Yuki was going through and how the loop will repeat itself. And this is not rationalization, it's what was clearly shown in the show.
Again, if you have to try to rationalize what was clearly seen, then it pretty much means you're stretching it quite a bit.

You wouldn't think taht way if it was only 1 or 2 episodes (like the original chapter). After seeing it 7 times (not counting the first one) you can think many ways, true. But their behavious is not strange if was only one time (and, for then, it was).

That's quite true. And that's exactly what I meant with :

"Overlooking the obvious is a very common flaw in weak storyline. It can be forgiven when it's a minor point or consequence-free. When the arc drags on for so long and cause such a ruckus, it becomes inexcusable."

If it had been only two episodes, I would have facepalmed "what an idiot", and I would have thought the story weak, but nothing more.
But when it stretches for such a long time, the annoying but tolerable point becomes really unbearable in the end, as all the irritation is due to something that was already dumb to begin with.

I am still not seeing how do you thing they would act.

Very first things I thought when I saw the ep the very first time (it means : I had not time to think about it, I was nearly in their situation) : ask Yuki for all the information she might share.
Call back Haruhi who is leaving the café, and improvise.
Give a phone call to Haruhi the day rather than doing nothing.

All this is pretty obvious. All this I thought about in a split second, while the characters have had a whole week for the fist option and a whole day for the third. Either I'm a genius (which would be pleasant, but I'm afraid it's not the case), either they are dumb as a post.

[Heminga13]

The only one I can see being the person to stop the loop is Kyon, because I think the other three are restricted by their respective groups. DITE has no feelings of emotion or anything we'd consider 'human,' so they're content to observe anything for as long as they need to or can because as long as they're gaining data it doesn't matter if it's just watching a rock for ten thousand years, which would be why Yuki isn't allowed to help them solve the loop, just tell them what is going on when they ask. To DITE, more time loops would lead to more chances they have to gather valuable data. Itsuki's organization is set on making sure Haruhi doesn't destroy the world, so you have to wonder if Itsuki believes anything he does might go wrong (hence the suggestion of him saying "I love you" to Haruhi isn't a serious idea for him because he's afraid of what might happen). Mikuru is basically just there so the 'time traveler' group has someone to use for their needs. She isn't really that useful on her own, she just acts according to her orders and finding out she lost contact with her time period, her 'home,' is a devastating experience for a girl who already has limited confidence in herself and her abilities.

Kyon is the one member who can actively do something about Haruhi because of his situation. As to why he acted the way he did in Endless Eight is really just up to viewer interpretation.

Edit - Also, nice 888 post number, Akka! *thumbs up*

[zriL]

ask Yuki for all the information she might share.

If you ask this, prepare to listen several years of data

Call back Haruhi who is leaving the café, and improvise.

If you know Haruhi, you know that you shouldn't do that unless you have a good idea. Just look at what happens in the last episode, it's surely the best result he can get with this plan. Imagine if he improvises...and Kyon has no balls, it's not like being stupid.

Give a phone call to Haruhi the day rather than doing nothing.

I wouldn't be surprised if he had never called her (I don't remember) and I think he may never intend to do it (reason above).

Spoiler for novel spoiler:

Even if he does it later in the novels

[Apache Thunder]

This episode has paradox written all over it.

Since due to the loop the future beyond the 31st of Augest doesn't exist and as a result Mikuru wasn't able to contact the future or go to the future thus raising the alarm that something was wrong.

But on the last episode where the loop was supposed to end she still couldn't contact the future despite the fact that in that instance the future does exist because Kyon was able to end the loop.

But then this would result in Mikuru being able to contact the future and then she would never raise the alarm on the situation and then the loop would continue as obviously kyon would not have had time to think of a solution if he didn't know about the problem yet.......Paradoxes hurt my brain.... :P

[Heminga13]

Well, the future didn't begin to exist in their current reality until Kyon did something that made Haruhi make the 'future' re-exist. So...when Haruhi first started the loop, the loop's properties were that those same two weeks would repeat over and over again, with the previous loops being 'erased' basically, until a time came that made Haruhi 'change' the course of time to something else (in this case back to 'normal'). Maybe...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Heminga13

Well, the future didn't begin to exist in their current reality until Kyon did something that made Haruhi make the 'future' re-exist. So...when Haruhi first started the loop, the loop's properties were that those same two weeks would repeat over and over again, with the previous loops being 'erased' basically, until a time came that made Haruhi 'change' the course of time to something else (in this case back to 'normal'). Maybe...

Yeah, that works for me too. The future only "phased back in" at the moment when Kyon made his big moves.

[Archon_Wing]

No 1 rule about Temporal Paradoxes:

Do not attempt to explain them. Successfully doing it will cause the universe to implode anyways.

[Heminga13]

If we didn't try to explain we wouldn't have anything to have fun arguing about, though.

I made a fancy [read- lol bad] chart:

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Heminga13

If we didn't try to explain we wouldn't have anything to have fun arguing about, though.

That is true. Though I'm going to hold you responsible if the universe does indeed implode. Or creates another time loop.* You don't want that.

*Naturally said time loop would be back about six or seven weeks, and we'll ask if the universe is trolling us.

[Heminga13]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

That is true. Though I'm going to hold you responsible if the universe does indeed implode. Or creates another time loop.* You don't want that.

*Naturally said time loop would be back about six or seven weeks, and we'll ask if the universe is trolling us.

Back to the start of Endless Eight airing? I wonder how soon I'll feel a sense of deja vu...oh yeah, the second episode of E8.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Heminga13

If we didn't try to explain we wouldn't have anything to have fun arguing about, though.

I made a fancy [read- lol bad] chart:

Oh god it's the return of the chart explanation from Clannad.

[Heminga13]

Never watched Clannad. Glad I could bring up [bad] memories, though!

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Akka

The difference is that rationalization is trying to find ways to explain something that felt absurd at first.
While what makes this thing feel absurd is that the characters didn't think of the glaringly obvious attempts that should logically have been made.

A good storytelling avoid this flaw by making the characters act at least seemingly logically/smartly. Of course, after a moment thinking about it, you can find many options they didn't use. But at least it's options you have to think about, not the ones which jump in your face.

What makes someone look stupid is precisely that he don't find the obvious, well, obvious. If you have to explain why they didn't think about the obvious, it's often (not always, but in this case it definitely is) a hint that they were, in fact, pretty stupid.

What is obvious to one might don't be obvious to another. Having seen that so many times, and having 2 moths to think, you can think in many sollutions.

Originally Posted by Akka

He always looked quite devastated thinking about the torture Yuki was going through and how the loop will repeat itself. And this is not rationalization, it's what was clearly shown in the show.
Again, if you have to try to rationalize what was clearly seen, then it pretty much means you're stretching it quite a bit.

"A quite devastated'? I think you are exaggerating. He always feel bad for her, sure, but he really don't seen to care that much about Nagato by this point. Actually, I am not even sure if he already believe she has emotions (maybe he only find out there). This is not rationalization, it was what I trully feel when I read it for the first time (he cleary only start to see Tuki as 'human' after book4). And he does at the end of every episode he can try latter, this also isn't rationalization.

Originally Posted by Akka

That's quite true. And that's exactly what I meant with :

"Overlooking the obvious is a very common flaw in weak storyline. It can be forgiven when it's a minor point or consequence-free. When the arc drags on for so long and cause such a ruckus, it becomes inexcusable."

If it had been only two episodes, I would have facepalmed "what an idiot", and I would have thought the story weak, but nothing more.
But when it stretches for such a long time, the annoying but tolerable point becomes really unbearable in the end, as all the irritation is due to something that was already dumb to begin with.

I am only saing it is not exactly bad writing (while I think it was all bad directing). They all are still on character

Originally Posted by Akka

Very first things I thought when I saw the ep the very first time (it means : I had not time to think about it, I was nearly in their situation) : ask Yuki for all the information she might share.
Call back Haruhi who is leaving the café, and improvise.
Give a phone call to Haruhi the day rather than doing nothing.

Ask Yuki is something only Kyon would do. You say it is obvious, but is understandable forget it in the first time, due to the tention. Obviously, is always first time for him. (Yeah, this is rationalization. But a show can't effort explaining all plot devices. It would be boring).

For call Haruhi, after faling on the restaurant, Kyon wouldn't call her without anything to say. He only would do that if he had a plan. And, as I say, he don't need to hurry, cause he has another chance latter. (This is not rationalization. Only my impresion of Kyon's personality, as well as what he said on screen)

Originally Posted by Akka

All this is pretty obvious. All this I thought about in a split second, while the characters have had a whole week for the fist option and a whole day for the third. Either I'm a genius (which would be pleasant, but I'm afraid it's not the case), either they are dumb as a post.

You say 'all' but give 3 exemples. One of then is just plain idiot ball by don't using (i.e., don't asking Nagato's help). The other 2 are related and are in-character. Dor all we know from Kyon, what ends the loop was the out-of-character part of the show (still awesome, though).