[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Looking at the three rules mentioned, shouldn't the last one be "Rule Z"? Just trying to be sure here...

I'm also quite sure it's supposed to be Rule Z and it's merely a typo by the typesetter or a thing that got overlooked in editing. It's fairly minor and I'd say it might even be changed for the Tankobon release, as they already did with a few minor things like missing backgrounds or small errors with wrong Kana used in some places. At one point the reading of one of the Kanji is also in reverse on some pages...those are small errors that get overlooked often and especially a sudden Romaji will get by unnoticed if the editor is sufficiently untrained.

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

And if the tales Yasu wrote are really short, like just a few pages long, that could explain how Ange is not part of the story. There's enough time to produce tales without Ange, or rewrite the ones she already had

I always assumed so as well. The story basically implies that she wrote all her stories AFTER Battler was announced for the 1986 conference, so that'd be what, maybe a month or so. The manga also shows only a heap of loose papers, like maybe 200 pages and something between at least 8 and 15 bottles, depending which picture you look at. Also the few glimpses we get at her script, it's about as "elaborate" as Our Confession was...so a rather short little story (especially if you take out the "commentary track".

Looking at one of the panels (considering that they are probably accurate) there are about 3-5 pages per bottle...so really nothing much. Especially if you consider that the final score will probably already have taken up one page (for effect).

Also, she wanted to be found, that's why she send out the stories on October 3rd, in case a miracle happens and somebody finds one of them early, they could also come to the island or at least report it.

[Captain Bluebeard]

Wow, a million thanks haguruma!!!!

I must say, confession really makes me like Yasu a lot less (because what the hell?), but love her a lot more as a villain!!!

Originally Posted by haguruma

Also the few glimpses we get at her script, it's about as "elaborate" as Our Confession was...so a rather short little story (especially if you take out the "commentary track".

I get the impression that rather than a story, it was just a little more than a brief announcement of the endgame, like in the credits roll, something like a confession after the crime.

But if that is the case, then what about the Forgeries? Are they just short messages as well, or are they fully fleshed stories? EP6 sure seems to imlpy the latter.

[GuestSpeaker]

I imagine the forgeries are full stories, some of which are based on the brief ones in the message bottle. It would explain Ep 3 a little, as Tohya was just working with the end scroll and filled in the gaps.

Did the mislabeled key trick ever get used? It sounds like they are making it out to be Jessica's Key in Ep 2, and actually right from the start I thought it was suspicious how Ryu emphasised that all the keys looked the same, but I never needed to use that info...

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

But if that is the case, then what about the Forgeries? Are they just short messages as well, or are they fully fleshed stories? EP6 sure seems to imlpy the latter.

I am kinda imagining the forgeries to be very disparate in their presentation. Like how different movies use different real life murder cases as inspiration but never in the very same way, the same length or the same amount of details.

I suppose the first few forgeries by the Hachijo's were probably only a short story of a few pages, so something like a more elaborate account of what was in the 2 message bottles that were officially found.
If we assume that Ikuko really did find the CotGW bottle and made BotGW from it (which is kinda possible considering that Sayo described the possibility of this modus operandi and also described the locked room in it as her personal pride), then it would have probably only been a short story.
In the VN she also says to Tohya that she's only dabbling and doing it for fun (since she got rejected) and he mentions that he went through her story in only a few hours...so I doubt it'd be something like a whole 300-400 page manuscript. More something like a 30-40 page short story.

Some forgeries will probably fully drop the whole "this is ACTUALLY REAL" angle and go for a more creative approach, since people will get tired of hearing the "true story" schtick for the hundreth time.
But hey...they even sell the Texas Chainsaw Massacre remake as "based on a true story" and some people are swallowing that.

Also, if we consider that Ange might have actually gone to Ikuko's house and read a new script, going by gameboard rules it should have at least been possible for her to read it in that time, so it's unlikely it was more than a short story.

To be fair, short stories are EXTREMLY COMMON on the Japanese market, especially in the crime, mystery, and horror department...so I think that's what they are

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Did the mislabeled key trick ever get used? It sounds like they are making it out to be Jessica's Key in Ep 2, and actually right from the start I thought it was suspicious how Ryu emphasised that all the keys looked the same, but I never needed to use that info...

The manga depicts the murder in the garden shed during EP4 for this:

Spoiler for Solution for the Garden Shed Murder:

Sayo changed the tag so that Battler later believed it was the key to the shed when it actually wasn't. She made Gohda and Kumasawa let her in with the real key, made them pretend they were strung up, shot them dead (as they couldn't run due to the ropes), changed the tags and left the fake key in Gohda's pocket, then left the shed again and locked it with the real key.

Jessica's room is constructed with Shannon's master key, since she only needed to leave Kanon's master key in the room.

It is also revealed that the food in the chapel during EP2 was poisoned, that Shannon called Dr. Nanjo in the guesthouse during EP3 and made him forward the call to George (who then went to the mansion and was shot by her).

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I am kinda imagining the forgeries to be very disparate in their presentation. Like how different movies use different real life murder cases as inspiration but never in the very same way, the same length or the same amount of details.

I suppose the first few forgeries by the Hachijo's were probably only a short story of a few pages, so something like a more elaborate account of what was in the 2 message bottles that were officially found.
If we assume that Ikuko really did find the CotGW bottle and made BotGW from it (which is kinda possible considering that Sayo described the possibility of this modus operandi and also described the locked room in it as her personal pride), then it would have probably only been a short story.
In the VN she also says to Tohya that she's only dabbling and doing it for fun (since she got rejected) and he mentions that he went through her story in only a few hours...so I doubt it'd be something like a whole 300-400 page manuscript. More something like a 30-40 page short story.

Yes, that's way more likely. And it's possible that we get the story told by Battler's point of view because when Tohya read them in a way he was doing that through Battler's eyes so his mind was consciously or unconsciously filling the gaps with memories, explanations and opinion Battler had.

Originally Posted by haguruma

The manga depicts the murder in the garden shed during EP4 for this:

Spoiler for Solution for the Garden Shed Murder:

Sayo changed the tag so that Battler later believed it was the key to the shed when it actually wasn't. She made Gohda and Kumasawa let her in with the real key, made them pretend they were strung up, shot them dead (as they couldn't run due to the ropes), changed the tags and left the fake key in Gohda's pocket, then left the shed again and locked it with the real key.

Jessica's room is constructed with Shannon's master key, since she only needed to leave Kanon's master key in the room.

*sigh* At the time I came up with another solution for the garden shed but well, whatever.

Originally Posted by haguruma

It is also revealed that the food in the chapel during EP2 was poisoned, that Shannon called Dr. Nanjo in the guesthouse during EP3 and made him forward the call to George (who then went to the mansion and was shot by her).

So the adults began eating? Without waiting for the kids? Serves you right guys for starting a party without them.

So... hum... Shannon called Nanjo who handed the call to George or Nanjo just told George that Shannon was alive and had called him?

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

Wow, a million thanks haguruma!!!!

I must say, confession really makes me like Yasu a lot less (because what the hell?), but love her a lot more as a villain!!!

LOL, for me it works in the reverse, the more I read the more I like her. But maybe that's because the more I read the more I'm persuaded she wouldn't have been able to follow her plan of murdering people.

I see her as someone going through the 5 stages of griefs. When she started writing she was at the second stage but as she claims she wants to be stopped I think she has moved to the third and soon she'll be at the forth. If she had had the time to reach the fifth she would have probably dropped the idea entirely.

[Uberzaki]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Did the mislabeled key trick ever get used? It sounds like they are making it out to be Jessica's Key in Ep 2, and actually right from the start I thought it was suspicious how Ryu emphasised that all the keys looked the same, but I never needed to use that info...

This was the conclusion I came to. As Haguruma says, the servant's key could have easily been used, which brings something up I have been scratching my head over (this is quite hard to explain):

If the perpetrator put a fake key in the room, and could have used the servant's key, it gives the impression that either they were trying to put suspicion on the servants (which is odd since Yasu is a servant). Or that they were trying to make us think they were trying to put suspicion on the servants, so we would not suspect the servants... arrgh!

So we have one or more conclusions to gain from this:

1) The perpetrator is not a servant. Or was a servant trying to put suspicion on themselves (considering that this is a Beatrice' game, this is possible)

In writing this I realised that:

2) The perpetrator needed Jessica's key for later on when the all the master keys would be given to Rosa in order to perform the 4th, 5th and 6th twilights.

I would love if anyone could suggest alternatives. I may wrong about Jessica's key being able to act as a master key (the labeling could have been switched around, so we don't know what key is a master key and which is any other key).

[battle22]

The confession made me like Yasu's character even more. Can't wait to buy this once Yen Press translates EP8.

Shame we don't have this in VN. Maybe Ryukishi is interested in Episode 9 with just this confession. I'd welcome that idea with open arms.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

It's really disappointing (and fun, of course) how much better the manga seems to be compared to the VN. I really like the emphasis we have on Yasu and her suffering. Much easier to understand her. I just bought the entire ep 1-3 manga from Amazon. I plan on buying the next Episodes too.. Hope Yen Press translates Chiru too.

Can someone explain what she means with the telephone though (In order to make it seem like it was disconnected). I didn't quite understand that part.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

Can someone explain what she means with the telephone though (In order to make it seem like it was disconnected). I didn't quite understand that part.

Often phones (or at least the system) are connected to a circuit breaker as well, which means, if you switch it off then it appears as if the phones were all dead when in fact that can be turned on again for convenience. That's why she also said that not only all communication systems but also all electrical systems are in her hand.

This is also why some people said that it explains a little bit better why Kyrie would not be that stupid in killing people before the bomb went off (at least if she already killed at least one person) because the chance to call for help IS there and she was right to suspect that.

Yeah, I think we all agree that the manga is finally delivering the finale that Umineko deserved back then. I also love how the Confession chapters are weaving the whole spider and butterfly theme back into the narrative, with Yasu seeing herself as a spider caught in her own web and her thought of becoming free by abandoning her boy/killing herself being symbolized by a butterfly.

I'm also really looking forward to the next EP7 chapter in a week, since I suppose it will not only contain the EP2 part but also at least EP3 and I am kinda still wondering about some of those parts (though Confession made it pretty clear that in the first 5 Episodes it is always Yasu).

[Renall]

I actually... don't agree, regarding the finale, at least so far. I'm more disappointed in the ending now than I was before. If anything, I think the moral is even darker, more pointless, more cynical, and more worthy of condemnation, unless he's holding something major back to shake everything up. I also tend to think the characterization has gone off the rails to the point of finally - in this tale of witches and locked room mysteries - breaking my suspension of disbelief. It's almost like Ryukishi was afraid to tip his hand with respect to Prime because he thought some people wouldn't buy into it, and I completely don't. I'd go so far as to say his conception of Prime as it seems to exist is basically less realistic than the in-universe fictions, and that destroys everything for me.

For example: I grasped by the end of ep7 that Yasu's life sucked. I could understand that. Conclusions could be drawn about her state of mind but ambiguity remained as to how much of it was real and how much of it was embellished, and how that might've influenced her actions. The manga has gone too far in that direction, putting her in some kind of Dickensian Hell where everything in the universe conspires to spit in her face and stomp all over everything she has ever wanted or been or done. In such a situation, why wouldn't you give up? It prevents any purchase into the whole "she couldn't see the way out" tragedy because there wasn't ever a way out if her life (and the world) really did suck that bad. It's just... too much. I can no longer accept even the remotest plausibility of her character and can no longer empathize. The ambiguity allowed me to read in humanizing interpretations, but at this point it's just kind of silly and I can no longer convince myself it isn't. The alleged behavior of the adults is the same way; they behave more rationally in the stories than they supposedly do "in reality." Genji goes from a cipher to a completely ridiculous monster. It goes on and on and none of it in the second half of the ep8 manga has actually deepened my appreciation for the characters like it did in the first half.

And all this to say... what, exactly? That's really the last stroke and the manga's last real shot at making something of the ending that isn't just a cynical shrug. The way it's building up, it makes Battler's speech about living look like deliberate mockery of his optimism, but I have trouble believing that would've been put in there if it didn't mean something. But in the context of all the new manga information it just seems like the conclusion is something akin to "life sucks, people are terrible, there is no point and no escape, and anyone who claims that people have a better nature is either a dumbass or a fraud." I want to think that's not how it will actually end, and since it isn't over yet there's obviously a fair bit left to show, but at the moment I'm decidedly down on it.

Unpopular opinions are hardly uncommon with me, I realize, and I'm not by any means saying I necessarily prefer the VN ending. They're both just... not very good, for different reasons. The only real possibility of salvaging things is that the manga isn't over yet, so it could just be building up all this absurdity for some greater end. If it is, though, it's going to take one hell of a refutation to get me back in line. The only reason I haven't written Yasu off entirely is because I've always been pretty sure she couldn't really go through with what she believed herself capable of doing, but I need to see that. Otherwise driving her to the ludicrous brink of suffering means nothing more than it did before in the VN, where she was already suffering plenty. It's tragedy porn and I'm not buying into it.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

I actually... don't agree, regarding the finale, at least so far. I'm more disappointed in the ending now than I was before. If anything, I think the moral is even darker, more pointless, more cynical, and more worthy of condemnation, unless he's holding something major back to shake everything up. I also tend to think the characterization has gone off the rails to the point of finally - in this tale of witches and locked room mysteries - breaking my suspension of disbelief. It's almost like Ryukishi was afraid to tip his hand with respect to Prime because he thought some people wouldn't buy into it, and I completely don't. I'd go so far as to say his conception of Prime as it seems to exist is basically less realistic than the in-universe fictions, and that destroys everything for me.

For example: I grasped by the end of ep7 that Yasu's life sucked. I could understand that. Conclusions could be drawn about her state of mind but ambiguity remained as to how much of it was real and how much of it was embellished, and how that might've influenced her actions. The manga has gone too far in that direction, putting her in some kind of Dickensian Hell where everything in the universe conspires to spit in her face and stomp all over everything she has ever wanted or been or done. In such a situation, why wouldn't you give up? It prevents any purchase into the whole "she couldn't see the way out" tragedy because there wasn't ever a way out if her life (and the world) really did suck that bad. It's just... too much. I can no longer accept even the remotest plausibility of her character and can no longer empathize. The ambiguity allowed me to read in humanizing interpretations, but at this point it's just kind of silly and I can no longer convince myself it isn't. The alleged behavior of the adults is the same way; they behave more rationally in the stories than they supposedly do "in reality." Genji goes from a cipher to a completely ridiculous monster. It goes on and on and none of it in the second half of the ep8 manga has actually deepened my appreciation for the characters like it did in the first half.

And all this to say... what, exactly? That's really the last stroke and the manga's last real shot at making something of the ending that isn't just a cynical shrug. The way it's building up, it makes Battler's speech about living look like deliberate mockery of his optimism, but I have trouble believing that would've been put in there if it didn't mean something. But in the context of all the new manga information it just seems like the conclusion is something akin to "life sucks, people are terrible, there is no point and no escape, and anyone who claims that people have a better nature is either a dumbass or a fraud." I want to think that's not how it will actually end, and since it isn't over yet there's obviously a fair bit left to show, but at the moment I'm decidedly down on it.

Unpopular opinions are hardly uncommon with me, I realize, and I'm not by any means saying I necessarily prefer the VN ending. They're both just... not very good, for different reasons. The only real possibility of salvaging things is that the manga isn't over yet, so it could just be building up all this absurdity for some greater end. If it is, though, it's going to take one hell of a refutation to get me back in line. The only reason I haven't written Yasu off entirely is because I've always been pretty sure she couldn't really go through with what she believed herself capable of doing, but I need to see that. Otherwise driving her to the ludicrous brink of suffering means nothing more than it did before in the VN, where she was already suffering plenty. It's tragedy porn and I'm not buying into it.

Sorry, maybe I'm just too tired tonight but I'm not sure I've got your point... -_-
You don't like it because Sayo's life is too messed up to be realistic, you don't like it because it's so messed up whatever she does there's no way out, you don't like it because people are poorly characterized or you don't like it because people are monsters? Or all of the above?

[Cao Ni Ma]

Nah, Im with you in the general sense that Yasu is a hell of a lot harder to empathize with now than before in part because the manga is making a really good case that she was legitimately insane. But I still prefer the way the manga is handling things over the vn.

What I dont get is how they'll reconcile everything thats going on right now with the magic ending, if they ever will. Nothing good seems to have come out of Maria's/Beatrice way of thinking and having Ange fall into that trap and still treat it as a good thing would be incredibly cynical. Not only that, Ange would be spreading it to others.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Sorry, maybe I'm just too tired tonight but I'm not sure I've got your point... -_-
You don't like it because Sayo's life is too messed up to be realistic, you don't like it because it's so messed up whatever she does there's no way out, you don't like it because people are poorly characterized or you don't like it because people are monsters? Or all of the above?

Its mostly because the characters are acting ways that they are completely unbelievable. No reasonable person will think like this, so reasonable people would not be able to understand why they are doing the things they are doing. So they come off as monsters/insane to us.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Its mostly because the characters are acting ways that they are completely unbelievable. No reasonable person will think like this, so reasonable people would not be able to understand why they are doing the things they are doing. So they come off as monsters/insane to us.

This, plus that we're supposed to believe this is the "true self" of these people, that they took these actions not as characters manipulated for an in-universe writer's ends but as real people, inasmuch as any part of Umineko is "real." Yet they come across as less plausible actors than the pieces of the tales, let alone as comprehensible human beings. We pull away from the fiction to find the reality is actually more ridiculous and implausible, and it doesn't work.

I mean, can anyone say Genji's behavior is even remotely sensible if even half the shit Yasu says he said and did is true? He actually comes across as more human when given less agency within the stories, because at least he isn't acting like a complete asshole for no apparent reason. And story-Genji is a robot, for crying out loud.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Nah, Im with you in the general sense that Yasu is a hell of a lot harder to empathize with now than before in part because the manga is making a really good case that she was legitimately insane. But I still prefer the way the manga is handling things over the vn.

What I dont get is how they'll reconcile everything thats going on right now with the magic ending, if they ever will. Nothing good seems to have come out of Maria's/Beatrice way of thinking and having Ange fall into that trap and still treat it as a good thing would be incredibly cynical. Not only that, Ange would be spreading it to others.

Well, I like to think the magic Ange is teaching isn't exactly the one of delusion but the one that would have helped her to accept Eva and to build up a relationship with her, a magic that would have helped her to break the chain of hate, a magic that would have helped her to keep on hoping, on having faith.

But there's to say the magic ending gives me the feeling that it's just a delusion or a tale to let Tohya met his sister again... and let Battler feel at peace... sort of like Ange gave Sakutarou to Maria. The two scenes are interesting as back there Ange wanted Maria to leave the Golden Land and Beatrice (pointless as Ange is dead and it's just wishful thinking she can leave the GL... unless that GL represent more Maria's spirit not resting in peace and Ange trying to give it peace)... while here Ange ends up carrying Battler to the Golden Land and to Beatrice (either she killed Tohya or allowed the Battler inside him to rest in peace).

Not mentioning we've the oddness of Ikuko not looking old...

Originally Posted by Renall

This, plus that we're supposed to believe this is the "true self" of these people, that they took these actions not as characters manipulated for an in-universe writer's ends but as real people, inasmuch as any part of Umineko is "real." Yet they come across as less plausible actors than the pieces of the tales, let alone as comprehensible human beings. We pull away from the fiction to find the reality is actually more ridiculous and implausible, and it doesn't work.

I mean, can anyone say Genji's behavior is even remotely sensible if even half the shit Yasu says he said and did is true? He actually comes across as more human when given less agency within the stories, because at least he isn't acting like a complete asshole for no apparent reason. And story-Genji is a robot, for crying out loud.

Oh, I agree with the servants' actions being hard to digest. I'm hoping I'm missing some vital piece of info... like that Genji actually said he was ok with Syao bombing everyone but behind her back he planned to tattle everything out so she could be stopped... and that Kumasawa and Nanjo had no idea what the script for the murder game actually was...

[Renall]

Well, it's not over, I acknowledge that. But there's quite a few things that were not in the VN that they'd have to address because of what they've brought up as new information in order for me to see something more positive in how it's going thus far. It could be a case of being darkest before the dawn and all that, but the dawn has to actually break before we can say that's what it was.

[haguruma]

Well, it}s nothing new for me to disagree with Renall, but I think that comes from a different place than "right ot wrong" (even if Renall himself might disagree ) and more from a difference in genre-preference and preference-based expectations.
Let me explain before anybody goes through the roof again:

Originally Posted by Renall

I'd go so far as to say his conception of Prime as it seems to exist is basically less realistic than the in-universe fictions, and that destroys everything for me.

I'd say that it is less likely, yes, but less realistic is something I can't really claim. We are not dealing with unrealistic elements here, just very unlikely elements. Nothing is decidedly fantastic, it's more like a very weirdly thought out "what-if" story that still keeps very much to the ground rules of our universe.
I know it's nitpicky, but I think it's important to keep these things apart when you criticize on a high level, like you are doing.

The manga has gone too far in that direction, putting her in some kind of Dickensian Hell where everything in the universe conspires to spit in her face and stomp all over everything she has ever wanted or been or done. In such a situation, why wouldn't you give up?

But for me that is kinda exactly the point about it. I find it interesting how before this everybody was complaining that Yasu didn't have enough agency to be a believable villain, because she couldn't even get herself to do simple things like write a letter, now it is explained why things weren't that simple and people are still dissatisfied. Maybe I just don't get it.
Much of this "Dickensian Hell" is also a hell of Yasu's own making. She still could have escaped it, just that circumstance raised her into being unable to speak up about it.
Yes, she had reason enough to be petrified in a state like her's, but wasn't that the story of Beatrice from the very beginning? A "woman" trapped by the house of Ushiromiya who is finally, through chance, going to reclaim everything in retaliation for what was done to her?

Genji goes from a cipher to a completely ridiculous monster. It goes on and on and none of it in the second half of the ep8 manga has actually deepened my appreciation for the characters like it did in the first half.

I really don't know if our perceptions of evil are just so inherently different - well yes, they obviously are - but I still can't call Genji a "completely ridiculous monster". He is insensitive, has probably largely given up on live, is fanatically caught in the past, loyal to promises to a fault, and yes, he hurts people with that. But what he is doing is obviously not coming from a place of hate, but from a misguided form of loyalty. Over the whole story we are told that he really believes in his role as a servant, that this isn't an occupation for him, it is his life and his reason to live.
Does that make him guilty of what happened to a lot of people on the island (at least including Beatrice II, Yasu, Natsuhi, and Rosa)? Yes, it does. He would and should be found guilty for a lot of crimes. But I can't say I find him impossible to believe as a character...he is certainly a heavy trope in mystery fiction, but it's not like servants like this didn't exist.

But in the context of all the new manga information it just seems like the conclusion is something akin to "life sucks, people are terrible, there is no point and no escape, and anyone who claims that people have a better nature is either a dumbass or a fraud."

Well...again this isn't exactly what I take from the new information so far.
The hide-and-seek portion, along with other scenes on Battler's gameboard made quite clear that these people DID have good sides. I also believe that the story we heard in EP7 about Kinzo and Bice's first encounter was true on an emotional level. I haven't really got the money to invest into the older magazines, so I have to wait for the next EP8 tankobon to come out, but there's also still some dialogues between Lion and other characters coming up, so we shouldn't take Confession too much as the center of everything.
The thing is, life doesn't suck, which is shown when Yasu is with the cousins, people aren't always terrible, which is shown in a lot of scenes during all Episodes, there is a point and there is an escape (that is not death), the problem is that it sometimes takes courage and understanding. When people don't attempt to understand each other, tragedy occurs.

Originally Posted by Renall

This, plus that we're supposed to believe this is the "true self" of these people, that they took these actions not as characters manipulated for an in-universe writer's ends but as real people, inasmuch as any part of Umineko is "real."

Well, so far we don't have much more information on Prime actually than we had before through Our Confession. Yes, Kumasawa and Nanjo agreed to play along with a murder-game. Yes, Genji agreed to help Yasu commit family-suicide as the head of the household.
What else about "Prime" do we know so far? The rest of Confession still contains things that Yasu assumed about them, those were the characters in her story, which were based on her perception of these people...and if Umineko should have one message then it is that our perception of people never paints the whole picture.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I'd say that it is less likely, yes, but less realistic is something I can't really claim. We are not dealing with unrealistic elements here, just very unlikely elements. Nothing is decidedly fantastic, it's more like a very weirdly thought out "what-if" story that still keeps very much to the ground rules of our universe.
I know it's nitpicky, but I think it's important to keep these things apart when you criticize on a high level, like you are doing.

No, I stand by it. Unlikely events happen all the time in fiction, but a confluence of every possible unlikely or unfortunate event solely for the purpose of making a character's life suck harder becomes unrealistic when it becomes ubiquitous. People do things that are irrational with flimsy motivations solely because a tragedy of greater escalation is needed. At least, that's how things appear to be; it's entirely possible the manga will change the perception of these events, since it isn't finished yet. But as it stands I do think it's something that just doesn't work anymore, and I have a lingering suspicion that it's not supposed to break like that. If it is and the point was to find it "off," great, but I don't really have any faith that that'll be so.

I think we were supposed to see this as the sincere and real backstory to the actual events, but seeing it as-is just comes across as silly. I can't take it seriously anymore. He took complaints against the lack of information as reason to go so overboard on things that he forgot to leave necessary ambiguity in place, and that leaves him vulnerable to someone taking him at his word and rejecting it as too ridiculous to accept. As I understand it, that's not even a new criticism for his work.

Originally Posted by haguruma

But for me that is kinda exactly the point about it. I find it interesting how before this everybody was complaining that Yasu didn't have enough agency to be a believable villain, because she couldn't even get herself to do simple things like write a letter, now it is explained why things weren't that simple and people are still dissatisfied. Maybe I just don't get it.

You don't. She's still not credible as a villain, because we both know that she didn't actually do anything and strongly suspect that she actually wouldn't. Or at least I do. Nothing that's been presented so far in the manga has changed my mind on that. She isn't a villain, and the entire point of the story has been to make us agree with that. All the manga is doing now is reveling in her pain by piling on more and more of it. I already got the picture. I was okay with the ambiguity in this particular case. And if you had to fill in what was missing, did you have to do it in such a ludicrous, melodramatic, overblown way?

Plus, the overblown nature of it sort of robs her of agency and dramatic importance. "Why couldn't she just write a letter?" is certainly a valid criticism of the VN as it stood, but when the manga reveals the answer is "Because literally everything that ever happened to her in her entire life was the most horrible thing you can possibly imagine" it doesn't work because it's basically pushing it to the point of "couldn't" (in the sense of inability) rather than "didn't" (in the sense of could have, but had reasons to choose not to). She's not a character tragically but believably flawed and unwilling to do what would help her because of her inability to trust that the outcome will be what she desires, but a sad clown ground beneath the boot-heel of life who really has no reason to expect anything good would ever come of her actions because so little ever has.

I had trouble with her character before and I won't deny that. I always found her implausible and melodramatic. But I accepted it for various reasons, not the least of which that I was always pretty sure she was innocent of actual crimes. I still think that, but the way I'm being asked to read the rest of her character is just too much and I've slid from "I can't empathize, but I can feel pity" to "this is just silly, does everything really have to be that bad?" I've lost connection to the character and just see the story structure she's designed to support.

In general the manga has at this point so marginalized the actions of Battler and Yasu that I have to think there's still something left to be told about their activities on that weekend. If they both basically barely did anything while a tragedy happened around them, it will be a genuinely terrible resolution. The obvious path from here would be to show what Battler actually did, and reveal the truth we've never gotten and that Eva wouldn't have known. But as I said above, I don't have a lot of hope for this anymore. I'm starting to think the author is just a pretty cynical person. See below.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I really don't know if our perceptions of evil are just so inherently different - well yes, they obviously are - but I still can't call Genji a "completely ridiculous monster". He is insensitive, has probably largely given up on live, is fanatically caught in the past, loyal to promises to a fault, and yes, he hurts people with that. But what he is doing is obviously not coming from a place of hate, but from a misguided form of loyalty. Over the whole story we are told that he really believes in his role as a servant, that this isn't an occupation for him, it is his life and his reason to live.

His actions don't make sense even given the portrayal you have presented for him. His actions don't make sense by any metric. He's had a bunch of plot resolution issues shoved onto his back to tie together issues the manga has raised, and it's turned him into a completely unbelievable character. Not just beyond redemption in a moral sense (although he comes across like that and I'd judge him such if I could buy him as a character at all), but beyond redemption in a characterization sense.

I suppose the intention was to sacrifice his character to try to salvage Yasu's, but it ends up breaking Genji to just make Yasu less believable. And Yasu already required some suspension of disbelief and acceptance of genre convention. That's gone now. Could this be fixed? Yes, maybe, if it turns out a lot of stuff here was just overdramatization on Yasu's part. Should it have gotten this bad in the first place? No.

Originally Posted by haguruma

The thing is, life doesn't suck, which is shown when Yasu is with the cousins, people aren't always terrible, which is shown in a lot of scenes during all Episodes, there is a point and there is an escape (that is not death), the problem is that it sometimes takes courage and understanding. When people don't attempt to understand each other, tragedy occurs.

Right, except tragedy did occur, which sort of suggests that the author's intent is to tell us that understanding is impossible. Battler lost Beatrice because he couldn't understand her in time. For the story to refute this, to have a moral in line with what you're suggesting, something has to have happened that revives hope within the tragedy. We haven't been shown that yet. We still might, as there's ep8 manga remaining to go. I'm not passing final judgment yet, but neither can I say that this form of the ending is definitely better, which is where I disagreed with you in the first place.

Ep4 had this revival of hope with Ange. There was a moment of understanding there and a degree of critical character growth. She made sense of tragedy, empathized with those who had hurt her, forgave them, and changed. Presumably either Battler needs to have gone through this sort of moment or Yasu did with Battler observing and assisting it. If we lack that, if we aren't shown that, then a non-cynical reading of the text seems like wishful thinking. Particularly when the VN version of ep8 features an Ange who has completely forgotten that growth. I mean I won't hide that I think ep1-4 are better, but this is one of the many reasons why they are. It will be quite difficult to salvage a decent ending out of Chiru, and while I had hope in the ep8 manga in the first half of the run it's fallen pretty flat on its face right now and needs to get back up and really blow everything away.

But that assumes that the author wants us to draw that conclusion, and at this point I just don't know. He has to put a refutation in the story to make the notion that he intends to say understanding and love can come through believable. The narrative must rise to a new high point in order to show us that this section was a low point. It has to make the Battler who begged Beatrice to live out to be more than a chump who thinks people are better than they are and capable of more than they can really do.

Originally Posted by haguruma

What else about "Prime" do we know so far? The rest of Confession still contains things that Yasu assumed about them, those were the characters in her story, which were based on her perception of these people...and if Umineko should have one message then it is that our perception of people never paints the whole picture.

There's perception and then there's facts. There are certain things Yasu observes that, assuming she isn't lying - and if she is lying nothing in that section is reliable, so I'm assuming she's not meant to be taken as lying, just potentially exaggerating in reaction - simply are true. And the immediate and apparent consequences of those things she knows are staggering in their audacity.

It's one thing to argue that she's drawing the wrong conclusion from Battler's behavior, because we know she doesn't have all of the facts. It's another thing to see Kinzo's skeleton pile and Genji's seeming indifference to it and not think that your father was at least a crazy asshole and at worst a mass-murdering asshole, and his best friend an amoral enabler. A number of conclusions she draws are histrionic and unreasonable, but others seem completely reasonable given the not-insignificant information she actually has. If we take her observations as true (and we have no reason not to), even if we filter out her conclusions, it's hard to draw different ones about some facts she knows.

And what we get seems, well, completely ridiculous for what we're told is "reality." You might be able to accept it and roll with it but the story was already pushing it for me with bomb clocks and Yasu's ep7 backstory. To believe that things were actually not merely worse, but that much worse, and that Genji was basically too stupid and insensitive to grasp even the importance of basic human dignity... now it's tumbling over the edge. It'll take a hell of a rope to haul it back up.

[haguruma]

Again, I get that you are a very passionate reader and especially passionate about topics like moral, ethics and the basic desire to believe in the good in people, and I also don't want you to think that I am placing my view of the story over yours. Still, I also wanna express that your way of expressing your opinion as "the right way to read it", fires up my desire to respond.

Originally Posted by Renall

People do things that are irrational with flimsy motivations solely because a tragedy of greater escalation is needed.

I have this problem with several of the points you make, you give very long-winded responses (like I am as well) but you don't really give examples of your criticism. What are these "irrational things" that you talk about at this point and who are the "people"? It's not like I can't imagine, but it's hard to respond when I don't really know what precise point I am responding to.

She isn't a villain, and the entire point of the story has been to make us agree with that. All the manga is doing now is reveling in her pain by piling on more and more of it.

Well, she is still more or less the villain in the way that she set herself up as the villain of the story. The actual point that Battler is trying to make (and I agree with) is that there is no villain to the larger story. She set Kinzo up as the villain to give her ideas about suicide reason, then she tried to set herself up as the villain because she believed that this would give people agency to stop or condemn her, people in post-1986 set different family members up as the villains, Ange set Eva up as the villain.

But as I said above, I don't have a lot of hope for this anymore. I'm starting to think the author is just a pretty cynical person. See below.

Maybe I am just equally "cynical" in way then

His actions don't make sense even given the portrayal you have presented for him. His actions don't make sense by any metric.

You say that, yet he makes sense to me. What do we make of that?
Give me at least an example of what you think doesn't make sense with him? That he supported the family only to have the head of the household decide to kill everyone? Well, in his moral codex it was her given right to decide that...more than that he likely also felt like he owed it to her. That he kept the child from Kinzo though being so loyal to him? Being loyal doesn't mean that he can't be torn about what would actually benefit both Kinzo and the child. And he still can be wrong...like everyone in this story is wrong about almost everything.

Yes, maybe, if it turns out a lot of stuff here was just overdramatization on Yasu's part. Should it have gotten this bad in the first place? No.

Again, what is this lot of stuff.

Right, except tragedy did occur, which sort of suggests that the author's intent is to tell us that understanding is impossible.

I won't tell you your wrong, but I'd still tell you I read it differently.
Understanding isn't impossible, but it didn't happen and that is both the cause and the core of the tragedy. It is possible and it could have prevented this tragedy from happening, but it didn't. That is the message that at least I can take from this, to not fall into the traps that the Ushiromiya clan fell into, to not force your idea of the world unto others but allign it with others, communicate with others, care for the feelings of others.
This hope remains in form of Ange. She can still decide to believe in the good that was in her family and carry it on, or if not that at least take a lesson from their wrongs and do it better. Yes, Kinzo failed, Genji failed, the Ushiromiyas failed, the cousins failed, Battler failed, Yasu failed...but does that mean that Ange has to fail as well?

To believe that things were actually not merely worse, but that much worse, and that Genji was basically too stupid and insensitive to grasp even the importance of basic human dignity... now it's tumbling over the edge. It'll take a hell of a rope to haul it back up.

Concerning the skeletons: Genji isn't lying when he says he only heard the story. When he came to Japan the mansion was likely already built and the skeletons were already there, in place. What was he to do? Deliver Kinzo to the authorities?

And another thing, what is this basic human dignity that Genji is too stupid to grasp?

[Renall]

The examples should be self-evident and have been done to death. I don't have a script handy to pull all of them out. I suspect you know exactly what I mean and are just trying to be coy about it.

But alright, let's look at Genji. Genji's treatment of Yasu for her entire life is just absolutely crazy and in no way resembles any plausible human being's thoughts, behaviors, or actions.

• He does nothing about the treatment of Yasu's mother, at all, and indicates only a very general unease with it. Not enough to actually do something, of course. This is a conflict of stated and actual morality, but it's acceptable if his future behavior plays off this conflict. It basically doesn't.
• He is fine with the plan to introduce Lion into Krauss's family, but when it goes wrong he suddenly decides to hide the child from Kinzo. This is a conflict of motivation; is he concerned about what Kinzo might do or not?
• He has a child he knows to be male sexed and raised female with absolutely no forethought as to the probable long-term consequences of this. This is a conflict of basic common sense, why even do this? It's neither necessary nor reasonable, and it's actually harder than not doing it.
• He brings the child back into the family as a servant under extremely suspicious circumstances that could (and did, according to the manga) arouse Kinzo's suspicions. This is, again, a conflict of motivation; was he trying to hide Yasu or was he trying to return her to Kinzo? Why completely change her identity? What about the risks of this negatively affecting Yasu? He doesn't appear to care.
• He appears to offer her no support or guidance whatsoever and refuses to answer any questions or assuage any fears until quite possibly the worst imaginable time, when Yasu is at her most vulnerable following the revelation of the truth about her identity... and he just dumps all of that information on her and then demands that she decide what to do with it. Again, does he care about her or does he care about Kinzo's wishes?
• He dresses up someone both he and Kinzo know to be male in a dress to resemble her dead mother so her incestuous father can get personal satisfaction out of it. This is not only bizarre and nonsensical, it's just downright creepy. And he knows Yasu has gender identity issues because he's responsible for them. How does this help?
• He is clearly aware that Yasu is suicidal, mentally unstable, and potentially homicidal as well. He has gone to all of this effort to return her to the family and help her become the head of the family, and she wants to not only throw it all away but kill a bunch of people who know nothing about what is going on. He indicates that he is totally cool with this, because she's the head so she can do as she wishes.

So what is it? Does he care about Yasu or does he care about Kinzo? To whom does his loyalty extend, Kinzo personally (so he will overlook Kinzo's actions unbecoming of a head because he owes him) or the headship generally (so he will do whatever Yasu wants even if it's moronic and suicidal, because it's his duty)? Does he have a moral compass or does he do whatever someone else thinks is best, even though he ought to know it's wrong? No matter how you answer this, something about his behavior and inferred motivation doesn't quite fit. His character was vague before and now it's just a mess.

Come on, you're smart enough to acknowledge this is just a wee bit silly. Genji does things because certain things had already been established but left vague, and to explain them necessitates an actor. Genji is designated as that actor and the result is that all of these actions he has undertaken have to be explained. And they can't be, because they clearly weren't that well thought-out in the first place and a number of them are retcons.

[jjblue1]

I've to admit that I agree with Renall about Genji. I can wave away some actions Genji make with various excuses but the whole bunch is... just too much.

You don't need to be a genius to know that things won't be easy for Sayo and that many of his actions (hiring her to work for the Ushiromiya when she's too young, let her grow in the belief she's a normal girl who would have no problems living a normal girl's life, doing nothing when she started to show interests in the opposite sex and when she started to show problems with her body and sexual identity) made it even worse and then we even have him force her into a mummery to please Kinzo without her having no explanation whatsoever, then Karma conveniently kills Kinzo right in front of her and they catch this chance in which she's already likely vulnerable to drop on her a long chain of unpleasant truths, part of which she should have known already while the other part instead is made of painful truths she really didn't need to know.

And then they go and tell her they want her to be happy? How? And how did they act to help this wish of her to turn true?

Honestly, my best theory for Genji is that he also was a believer of the roulette of fate. He just dropped Sayo in fate's hands and washed his hands clean of her, doing only the minimum necessary and most of it was for Kinzo's benefit.

But while the roulette of fate can work to explain some choices, some others are just a plea for a horrible life falling on Yasu.

Honestly I prefer to think at Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo as villains, I prefer to think they didn't really care about Sayo, Genji was just sent on helping Kinzo not to make the same mistake and Kumasawa and Nanjo were in for money than to assume they were good people, who cared for Sayo but didn't realize if they acted like that they would only made her desperate.

That or somewhere we should be informed they were retarded.

The fact that Sayo's life is the embodiement of Murphy's law as said previously didn't come to me as a surprise as there were enough hints to figure out nothing ever went well with her.
It's a fact I had to deal with prior to the last revelations and that annoyed me back then as really, she has the luck of Donald Duck only she's not in a commedy but in a tragedy.

Honestly the only part that I totally didn't expect was Genji randomly showing her corpses and letting her be traumatized by it.
It's... well, the last drop. They aren't trying to help her becoming happy, they're trying to push her to insanity.
Genji has to be completely void of human feelings to think it was okay to show her that... or okay to tell her the truth about it.

And what's Genji sudden need for telling the truth?

He lied and hid truth from Sayo and Kinzo for 17 years of their life and now he has to tell her everything in all its horrible details?

She didn't need to see the skeletons and if she were to see them by accident he could have made up an explanation for why they were kept there. Instead Genji is just... following the flow.

After arbitarily deciding to take Sayo away from Kinzo, place her in an orphanage, have her sex switched and then have her called back to Rokkenjima he just... stand there and watches as the Titanic will hit the iceberg.

Yes, maybe we don't know all the truth about Genji, as I said maybe he said he would play along but actually he tried to save her and give her a happy life as he claimed he wanted her to have instead of just watching the show maybe he tried to toss her a glove like Ronove does with Beato in Ep 6 or solve the closed room like Gaap attempted to do and... failed.

Maybe Sayo was so desperate that after learning the truth she didn't notice everyone's attempt to cheer her up so we're missing facts.

But still, we have some facts and those do not pain a nice picture.

As for the understanding... I get haguruma's point but somehow the situation in Umineko is so bad that expecting understanding to happen feels like expecting a miracle.

Rosa should have understood Maria. Rosa however was damaged herself and even if she should have understood Maria and maybe wanted to do so, she kept on failing to do so because her repressed anger blinded her so much that she acted before thinking.
We see more than once that she beats Maria without even realizing she's going overboard. Rosa loses control and I don't even know if there was someone she could go to get it back since on her own she couldn't get it back.

Natsuhi should have accepted the baby. Natsuhi however was a mess at the time and she too lost control to the point she wasn't even secure if she had pushed the servant or not.

George should have figured out Shannon had issues. George however failed to question Shannon, believed in how she apparently looked okay and couldn't really picture all those issues.

Battler should have contacted Sayo 6 years ago. Battler however had some serious issues to deal with. As for solving the epitaph sooner or figuring out she sent Beatrice's letter... I'm not even sure he could.

Ange should have understood Eva... but she lacked the necessary maturity and was in a lot of pain.

Eva should have understood Ange... but she was likely traumatized by what had happened and her life was hell.

In short... although understanding is still possible... in such situations I don't expect people to understand each other.
It would be better if they were to do it but... I'm not sure they can.