Regarding the needless, while I agree that planting the 109 needle might not be everything that needs to be done, to return Tsukune back to normal, I still believe it's a necessary step for Tsukune to get back to his normal state...
After all, let's not forget that after this training arc is over, Tsukune is still going to need to fight with Akua, and if he weren't capable of defending against the Jigen-tou at that point, then the current developments wouldn't make a lot of sense...
Meaning that Tsukune still has to "learn" how to defend against the Jigen-tou and, even if things aren't going as planned, I still believe that the modification ritual is going to be completed, to allow Tsukune to defend against the Jigen-tou.
I think that Tsukune's transformation occurred at this point, to "stabilize" Tsukune's body and bring his other attributes closer to Akua's level... even if it involves Tsukune going out of control for some time...
Of course, I don't think that Tsukune is going to be able to fully control his powers yet, meaning that they are probably going to need to be limited in some way again, but since Tsukune probably won't be restricted by the Holy Lock anymore, after he regains control over his body, I think that Tsukune is going to be capable of using a much higher extent his abilities, then he was before... his body transformation.
Spoiler for 40:
The last needle is a neccessary step. What I'm thinking is that the 109th needle cannot be the last one, and Tsukune still needs more work for the complete transformation to take place. If Fuhai-sensei were to launch the needle to his heart right now, I think it would actually kill him rather than temporarily stabilize him. The 109th needle can stabilize him further if launched to another part of his body (perhaps that part that generates youki if we assume a demon's body isn't structured the same way as a human's).
When it comes to learning how to use the Jigen-tou or defend against it, it is ideal that Tsukune undergoes a complete transformation, not one where his transformation is incomplete. There will always be a certain level of instability, and that won't be good for him if he wants to know how to properly defend against a technique that requires a greater level of precision than any other skill we've seen so far in the R+V-verse. He needs a full transformation to become stable. He won't have full control even after a complete transformation because it won't feel completely natural to him. For instance, Yusuke from Yu Yu Hakusho, even after fully transforming into a demon, could not aim his Spirit Gun properly. If it's a similar case here, I doubt Tsukune will gain complete control after a full transformation immediately.
There is only one problem with the 109th needle thing... that being that it may be necessary for all the 108 needles that had already been put into Tsukune to be present once the 109th is inserted. I don't think putting it in now would work because when Tsukune transformed, all the other needles were forcibly ejected from him. Though I could be wrong, but if I'm right, it's gonna be one hell of a long and bloody fight trying to get Tsukune subdued enough to get all the needles back in to complete the ritual with that final needle.
But if it's alright to not have them present, then it's an easy fix.... except that Fuhai would need a recharge of Youki in order to do so... But before that, he would need to be alive and capable of doing that first. This IS a type of acupuncture you know.
Spoiler for 40:
Well, let's not try to complicate matters more then they already are, alright , at least not until the next chapter comes out, where we are probably going to know more about returning Tsukune to normal... but, if you're theory that the 108 needless need to be present, before inserting the last one, then I agree that it's going to be one hell of a fight to do that... and I don't even know if the ones present in Tohou Fuhai's dimension would be capable of subduing Tsukune to such an extent, that they could safely insert the 108 needless into him...
@Tsuyoshi
Spoiler for 40:
Well, you might be right on this, but I don't think that the way to recover Tsukune back to normal is going to be clarified until the next chapter comes out, since I don't think that's it's going to take longer then one chapter to subdue Tsukune, although it might be possible that we are going to need to wait two months, before Tsukune is going to be returned to normal, and we are going to learn how Tohou Fuhai is going to continue working on Tsukune... (it probably depends on how much pages the next chapter is going to have)
Regarding you're theory on Tsukune's transformation, well it depends on what do you consider as a complete transformation , after all judging by the contents of chapter 40, there is still a lot we don't know about Tsukune and his powers...
Still, I agree that, even if Tsukune is going to be able block against the Jigen-tou, he won't be able, to fully control that ability, but I think that is pretty natural, after all I don't think that, even if the modification ritual would proceed smoothly, Tsukune would be capable of blocking against the Jigen-tou right away, probably he still would need to learn and practice using it, and now things have probably became even more complicated, since the modification ritual didn't go as smoothly as it was supposed to, but at the end of this training arc, I believe that Tsukune is still going to be sufficiently prepared for the raid on Fairy Tale's HQ, since out of the whole group that is currently located in Tohou Fuhai's dimension, Tsukune is the only one who has the capability of matching or maybe even surpassing Akua...
Well, you might be right on this, but I don't think that the way to recover Tsukune back to normal is going to be clarified until the next chapter comes out, since I don't think that's it's going to take longer then one chapter to subdue Tsukune, although it might be possible that we are going to need to wait two months, before Tsukune is going to be returned to normal, and we are going to learn how Tohou Fuhai is going to continue working on Tsukune... (it probably depends on how much pages the next chapter is going to have)
Regarding you're theory on Tsukune's transformation, well it depends on what do you consider as a complete transformation , after all judging by the contents of chapter 40, there is still a lot we don't know about Tsukune and his powers...
Still, I agree that, even if Tsukune is going to be able block against the Jigen-tou, he won't be able, to fully control that ability, but I think that is pretty natural, after all I don't think that, even if the modification ritual would proceed smoothly, Tsukune would be capable of blocking against the Jigen-tou right away, probably he still would need to learn and practice using it, and now things have probably became even more complicated, since the modification ritual didn't go as smoothly as it was supposed to, but at the end of this training arc, I believe that Tsukune is still going to be sufficiently prepared for the raid on Fairy Tale's HQ, since out of the whole group that is currently located in Tohou Fuhai's dimension, Tsukune is the only one who has the capability of matching or maybe even surpassing Akua...
Spoiler for 40:
Imo, a complete transformation is one where physically, there isn't any part of his body that can be deemed human. His memories will of course remain intact if the ritual goes as planned, but his body will be different in terms of its internal structure, altho the outer structure will mostly appear to be the same apart from the eyes and fangs. A complete transformation is one where the entirety of his DNA is demon and not human. Once his DNA is fully that of a demon, that's when he can learn to defend against the Jigentou.
If the ritual can complete Tsukune's transformation, then he will certainly be able to learn to use it and defend against it. The thing is, it's ideal for Tsukune to become complete if he wants to learn those techniques ASAP, which is what he wants after all. If he is still somewhat unstable, the training won't proceed as fast as he would like it to, and that's why he's going through this ritual in the first place.
Imo, a complete transformation is one where physically, there isn't any part of his body that can be deemed human. His memories will of course remain intact if the ritual goes as planned, but his body will be different in terms of its internal structure, altho the outer structure will mostly appear to be the same apart from the eyes and fangs. A complete transformation is one where the entirety of his DNA is demon and not human. Once his DNA is fully that of a demon, that's when he can learn to defend against the Jigentou.
If the ritual can complete Tsukune's transformation, then he will certainly be able to learn to use it and defend against it. The thing is, it's ideal for Tsukune to become complete if he wants to learn those techniques ASAP, which is what he wants after all. If he is still somewhat unstable, the training won't proceed as fast as he would like it to, and that's why he's going through this ritual in the first place.
Spoiler for 40:
Well, in a sense you could say that this is what occurred in chapter 40, it's just that Tsukune's mind hadn't gained control over his "new body" yet...
After all, judging from how Tsukune currently looks like, I think you can agree that physically Tsukune isn't a human anymore, which means that once Tsukune regains control over his body, he should be capable of learning how to use youkai techniques.
Of course, since Tsukune didn't have a full control over his vampire abilities, and probably his resolve was too weak to successfully preform the modification ritual, but that doesn't mean that Tsukune won't be capable of using youkai techniques after he regains control over his body, since I don't think that Ikeda is making Tsukune go through this developments without some kind of purpose in mind...
Well, in a sense you could say that this is what occurred in chapter 40, it's just that Tsukune's mind hadn't gained control over his "new body" yet...
After all, judging from how Tsukune currently looks like, I think you can agree that physically Tsukune isn't a human anymore, which means that once Tsukune regains control over his body, he should be capable of learning how to use youkai techniques.
Spoiler for 40:
It's not what happened since Fuhai-sensei has yet to launch the last needle, so there is still a part of his that is human. His blood hasn't completely transformed yet.
Tsukune certainly isn't completely human, that is for certain. But then, he was never completely human after taking Moka's blood in the first place. It's simply that the balance between human and demon blood was reverted because of the ritual, and there is now more demon blood than human, unlike before. But yeah, he should be capable, but it'll be better for him to become a complete demon if he wants the training to be as smooth and quick as possible.
It's not what happened since Fuhai-sensei has yet to launch the last needle, so there is still a part of his that is human. His blood hasn't completely transformed yet.
Tsukune certainly isn't completely human, that is for certain. But then, he was never completely human after taking Moka's blood in the first place. It's simply that the balance between human and demon blood was reverted because of the ritual, and there is now more demon blood than human, unlike before. But yeah, he should be capable, but it'll be better for him to become a complete demon if he wants the training to be as smooth and quick as possible.
Spoiler for 40:
Well, then if you're assumption is true, then it doesn't seem like Ikeda wants Tsukune to completely become an ayashi - at least based upon what we currently know, since it's unknown what is going to happen in the future chapters...
True, it might be possible that, with the way that Tsukune reacted to the ritual, Tsukune is going to have more difficulty in learning youkai techniques, but I don't think that he's making Tsukune go through those developments without any purpose - after all, it's not like Ikeda has to make Tsukune obtain full control over his power's yet, since it doesn't seem like the R+V manga is ending yet, and with the way he is currently developing Tsukune, I think Ikeda wants Tsukune to also undergo some character development as well, instead of just increasing the amount of power Tsukune has at his disposal...
Well, then if you're assumption is true, then it doesn't seem like Ikeda wants Tsukune to completely become an ayashi - at least based upon what we currently know, since it's unknown what is going to happen in the future chapters...
True, it might be possible that, with the way that Tsukune reacted to the ritual, Tsukune is going to have more difficulty in learning youkai techniques, but I don't think that he's making Tsukune go through those developments without any purpose - after all, it's not like Ikeda has to make Tsukune obtain full control over his power's yet, since it doesn't seem like the R+V manga is ending yet, and with the way he is currently developing Tsukune, I think Ikeda wants Tsukune to also undergo some character development as well, instead of just increasing the amount of power Tsukune has at his disposal...
Spoiler for 40:
I think that if Ikeda didn't want to Tsukune to completely turn into an ayashi, that would defeat the whole purpose of his development. The way I see it, Tsukune's transformation throughout the series symbolized his growing love, affection and attachment to Moka, an ayashi herself. It shows how much he was willing to leave behind of his old life to be with her. If he doesn't want to turn Tsukune into a complete ayashi, I feel that Tsukune's character development by the end of the series will be incomplete. That being said, it would therefore make sense if Tsukune doesn't fully turn right now, as I feel that we're not yet approaching the final battle, especially when we know nothing of what really happened to Akasha and Alucard. We'll prolly know more about that when Tsukune and the gang rescue Moka at the FT main base.
However, I do think Tsukune will have plenty of room for character development after becoming a complete ayashi. Things like coming to term with his new body, new abilities, new life, his transformation will be the beginning of the final stages of his character development rather than the end. It's not as if Tsukune will transform into an ayashi and say "now that that's done, everything's normal again." He'll undoubtedly have new issues to deal with, most of them of a personal nature to do with himself.
I think that if Ikeda didn't want to Tsukune to completely turn into an ayashi, that would defeat the whole purpose of his development. The way I see it, Tsukune's transformation throughout the series symbolized his growing love, affection and attachment to Moka, an ayashi herself. It shows how much he was willing to leave behind of his old life to be with her. If he doesn't want to turn Tsukune into a complete ayashi, I feel that Tsukune's character development by the end of the series will be incomplete. That being said, it would therefore make sense if Tsukune doesn't fully turn right now, as I feel that we're not yet approaching the final battle, especially when we know nothing of what really happened to Akasha and Alucard. We'll prolly know more about that when Tsukune and the gang rescue Moka at the FT main base.
However, I do think Tsukune will have plenty of room for character development after becoming a complete ayashi. Things like coming to term with his new body, new abilities, new life, his transformation will be the beginning of the final stages of his character development rather than the end. It's not as if Tsukune will transform into an ayashi and say "now that that's done, everything's normal again." He'll undoubtedly have new issues to deal with, most of them of a personal nature to do with himself.
Spoiler for 40:
That's true, but like you said, Ikeda doesn't need to completely change Tsukune in a ayash, in a single step - judging from the way that Tsukune's development is proceeding I think that Ikeda is making Tsukune's transformation occur in steps, and what we have seen in chapter 40, is another step of Tsukune's development into a complete ayashi...
Regarding Tsukune's character development after becoming an complete ayashi, well I agree that there is a possibility of those thing being brought up, after Tsukune completely turns into an ayashi, since like you said, it probably isn't going to be easy for Tsukune to accept the fact that he isn't a human anymore... but there is probably still a lot of time, before that happens, since after all there is still an entire school year ahead of Tsukune and his friends...
Still, if the story is really going to proceed foreword Tsukune abandoning his old life (at least partially, since even if Tsukune becomes a complete ayashi, I don't think that Tsukune is going to turn his back on his human origins, unlike Hokuto), then I think that Tsukune's family is going to be more involved with the youkai world, later in the story, which wouldn't be complete if Tsukune's family remained unaware of the changes that have occurred within him, since he got involved with Moka and the other girls, at least I think it's one of the needed steps if Tsukune is going to become a complete ayashi - to make Tsukune realize that he is already different then the rest of his family, and that despite his human origins Tsukune doesn't belong to the human world anymore...
After all, since the R+V manga is still quite popular, I don't see any reason why Ikeda won't continue the story until Tsukune's graduation, meaning that there are still a lot of opportunities for Ikeda to further develop Tsukune,,,
I had a thought, what if all that youki that Touhou channeled into Tsukune's body was absorbed by the Shinso blood, powering it up, which resulted in this transformation of the current Tsukune.
Shinso are capable of absorbing other powers and ayashi, which would no doubt be originated from the Shinso blood itself.
I'm just throwing this out there, but what are yalls thoughts on this?, now that ive mentioned it.
Just a reminder, TSUKUNE IS GOD, WELL DEMON GOD THAT IS.
I had a thought, what if all that youki that Touhou channeled into Tsukune's body was absorbed by the Shinso blood, powering it up, which resulted in this transformation of the current Tsukune.
Shinso are capable of absorbing other powers and ayashi, which would no doubt be originated from the Shinso blood itself.
I'm just throwing this out there, but what are yalls thoughts on this?, now that ive mentioned it.
Just a reminder, TSUKUNE IS GOD, WELL DEMON GOD THAT IS.
Spoiler for 40:
True, Shinso vampires apparently are capable of absorbing the power's of other ayashi, but since Ikeda hasn't revealed anything about this ability yet, it's hard to say if that ability was responsible for Tsukune's body transforming like that... but if I have to say my opinion about this, I think that the reason why Tsukune turned like this, is because Tohou Fuhai's body modification technique made Tsukune's body more adapted to the youkai energies flowing within it., which resulted in strengthening the effect the Shinso blood has on Tsukune's body, effectively overpowering the Holy Lock...
Which means that I don't think that a Shinso's abilities to absorb another ayashi's powers has anything to do with Tsukune's current transformation, since if we take into consideration what Alucard tried to do to Moka in the flashback, I think that for a Shinso to absorb another ayashi's power he needs to consume that ayashi's entire body as well, which is probably the reason why Alucard has turned out like this...
Still, if the story is really going to proceed foreword Tsukune abandoning his old life (at least partially, since even if Tsukune becomes a complete ayashi, I don't think that Tsukune is going to turn his back on his human origins, unlike Hokuto), then I think that Tsukune's family is going to be more involved with the youkai world, later in the story, which wouldn't be complete if Tsukune's family remained unaware of the changes that have occurred within him, since he got involved with Moka and the other girls, at least I think it's one of the needed steps if Tsukune is going to become a complete ayashi - to make Tsukune realize that he is already different then the rest of his family, and that despite his human origins Tsukune doesn't belong to the human world anymore...
Spoiler for 40:
That's a good thought. I do wonder myself how Tsukune's family would react if they found out that he had turned into an ayashi and how they would proceed from there. I also doubt that they would remain unaware of it, but at the same time, I don't know if it would be easy for them to accept it at first, or how silent they can remain about the entire thing. It's true that Tsukune won't throw away his origins the way Hokuto did. Unlike Hokuto, Tsukune's family always looked out for him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinso Tsukune
Spoiler for 40:
I had a thought, what if all that youki that Touhou channeled into Tsukune's body was absorbed by the Shinso blood, powering it up, which resulted in this transformation of the current Tsukune.
Shinso are capable of absorbing other powers and ayashi, which would no doubt be originated from the Shinso blood itself.
Spoiler for 40:
I doubt it has anything to do with the Shinso's ability to absorb the powers of other ayashi. I think it's too early to make conjectures about how it's done when there haven't been any hints anywhere as to how it is actually accomplished. But I think Chris might be onto something. It's plausible that they have to consume the body of the ayashi itself rather than just the blood, and Alucard's current body does indicate as such. It not like a human transforming into an ayashi, particularly when Shinso blood is superior in quality compared to the blood of others, when human blood is prey to all ayashi.
That's a good thought. I do wonder myself how Tsukune's family would react if they found out that he had turned into an ayashi and how they would proceed from there. I also doubt that they would remain unaware of it, but at the same time, I don't know if it would be easy for them to accept it at first, or how silent they can remain about the entire thing. It's true that Tsukune won't throw away his origins the way Hokuto did. Unlike Hokuto, Tsukune's family always looked out for him.
Spoiler for 40:
Well, it depends on how involved with the ayashi world, Ikeda is going to make them, but if we take Tsukune's cousin as an example, I think they are capable of keeping the existence of ayashi as a secret...
I agree with you, that it won't be easy for them to accept this, but it's not like it's going to be easy for Tsukune to reveal the fact that he isn't a human anymore, especially considering the recent developments that Tsukune undergoes...
It probably depends on how Ikeda is going to reveal Tsukune's secret, but fortunately I don't think that Tsukune's family is going to be made aware of Tsukune's secrets anytime soon, so the revelation is probably going to occur when Tsukune becomes more human like in his monster form, then he currently is... so, I think the revelation is going to occur when Tsukune is going to be capable of controlling the full extent of his powers, and there is still some time, before Tsukune is going to be able to do that.
There is only one problem with the 109th needle thing... that being that it may be necessary for all the 108 needles that had already been put into Tsukune to be present once the 109th is inserted. I don't think putting it in now would work because when Tsukune transformed, all the other needles were forcibly ejected from him. Though I could be wrong, but if I'm right, it's gonna be one hell of a long and bloody fight trying to get Tsukune subdued enough to get all the needles back in to complete the ritual with that final needle.
But if it's alright to not have them present, then it's an easy fix.... except that Fuhai would need a recharge of Youki in order to do so... But before that, he would need to be alive and capable of doing that first. This IS a type of acupuncture you know.
Spoiler for 40:
the needles are merely a catalyst for the effect. the Youki in the needles is what is really causing the ritual to proceed and the Youki has already been injected into Tsukune
What cyberdemon says is true, all 109 needles are actually catalysts that serve the purpose of channeling the youki into Tsukune's body that will allow him to use Youjutsu. Which possibly means that the 109th needle that is to be impaled into Tsukune's very beating heart, is the key to completing the transformation and helping him regain control, now that the Holy Lock is broken.
However, his strong will, love and determination for saving Moka, will play a huge part in helping him, since shes on his mind. Of course not wanting to harm his friends will also play part in this as well.
But i wonder why Touhou reverted back to his elder form on the last page?
What cyberdemon says is true, all 109 needles are actually catalysts that serve the purpose of channeling the youki into Tsukune's body that will allow him to use Youjutsu. Which possibly means that the 109th needle that is to be impaled into Tsukune's very beating heart, is the key to completing the transformation and helping him regain control, now that the Holy Lock is broken.
However, his strong will, love and determination for saving Moka, will play a huge part in helping him, since shes on his mind. Of course not wanting to harm his friends will also play part in this as well.
But i wonder why Touhou reverted back to his elder form on the last page?
Spoiler for 40:
Touhou Fuhai said before that his elder form was to conserve his energy. It seems like he gets tired more quickly in his younger form (which is a shame because he looks awesome), so he probably reverted to his old form automatically after being knocked out since it takes effort to keep his younger appearance.
Location: In front of my moniter, surrounded by books...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinso Tsukune
Spoiler for 40:
It looks like he has the same ability Kahlua does, partial transformation of the body, since this current form shows that he is capable of it.
However, i seriously doubt this is the new Tsukune, it's pure wickedness and it's going to scare the crap out of a lot of people.
Spoiler for ep40:
I sincerely hope he has SOME control over this in the future - he may be wicked, but its so GOOD looking, I just can't stand it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinso Tsukune
Spoiler for 40:
Being able to grow giant bat wings and fly would be pretty cool for Tsukune, i guess that would be his partial-transformation ability, unlike Kahlua's.
But all i can say is that Fairy Tale HQ is going to be like "OH SH--!!!", when they encounter Tsukune.
I wanna see!!! I wanna see!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magin
Spoiler for a theory or two:
With Tsukune in Berserk mode, the girls do their best to subdue him, getting close, but not quite making it (and if I want to be really nasty, I'll even say that at least one or more of them is seriously injured trying to subdue tsukune). However, this allows enough time for Fuhai to recover, and he's able to put the 109th needle in Tsukune, thereby subduing the energy within tsukune, retuning him to a more human-looking state... and he probably repairs the Holy Lock in the process
After that... well, it could possibly go angst route if any of the girls were injured while going against tsukune, but I'd prefer if they headed out to rescue Moka
My idea on this (purely speculative and totaly out-there)
Spoiler for Tsukune:
There is (theoretically) a way to subdue Tsukune, but it will require a bit of luck and one very determined Kurumu... she would have to Charm him (probably quite heavily to get past the ravening beast), and then kiss him, thus enslaving him. I wouldn't want to see Moka's face for while if that had to happen, though.
__________________
Managing multiple obsessions can make a person CRAZY!!!
My idea on this (purely speculative and totaly out-there)
Spoiler for Tsukune:
There is (theoretically) a way to subdue Tsukune, but it will require a bit of luck and one very determined Kurumu... she would have to Charm him (probably quite heavily to get past the ravening beast), and then kiss him, thus enslaving him. I wouldn't want to see Moka's face for while if that had to happen, though.
Spoiler for Tsukune theory:
Personally, I doubt that something like that is going to occur, first of all, because Kurumu has told herself that she won't be using the Charm spell on him, since the result is not real love, and I don't think that she has enough determination to break that promise, not to mention that if she did something like that Moka would kill her - probably becoming pissed enough to break the Rosario on her own...
Not to mention that I doubt Charm is effective on Tsukune in his current state, since at the current point Tsukune is just a bundle of pure destructive impulses, although Tsukune's mind is still present in there somewhere, but I don't think that it's possible to draw it out using Kurumu's charm technique...
So while I agree that Kurumu is going to have a role in bringing Tsukune back to normal, I don't think she's going to do it, in the way you brought up tomboy8888.
2011-03-05, 00:31
, at least not until the next chapter comes out, where we are probably going to know more about returning Tsukune to normal... but, if you're theory that the 108 needless need to be present, before inserting the last one, then I agree that it's going to be one hell of a fight to do that... and I don't even know if the ones present in Tohou Fuhai's dimension would be capable of subduing Tsukune to such an extent, that they could safely insert the 108 needless into him...
