Anime cliche that you hate, with a good reason

[RRW]

Originally Posted by aohige

@RRW

I have an inclination that you might - probably - maybe - perhaps - could be - just slightly obsessed with meganekko. :P

Well you can say I bit bias to them.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by judasmartel

Okay, so many of them are TEENAGE GUYS WITH VIRTUALLY ZERO EXPERIENCE IN ROMANCE AND GIRLS. So how do you expect them to know that girls like them, assume that's the case just because they look at them funny? It's not like every teenage girl, anime or otherwise, can be that straightforward with their feelings.

Its not that we dont get that. Its that the audience is expected to project themselves onto these boys with such lack of love knowledge which, considering the audience is sexually attracted to at least some of the girls, is really annoying. They dont wanna see the main character cry and whine when his friend rubs her big breasts on his head, they wanna see him grope her!

And you know most teenage boys think about sex way more than that irl. Harem lead guys are almost always some laughably unrealistically holy virgins thatt dont even masturbate.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

And you know most teenage boys think about sex way more than that irl.

I hate that fact.

[judasmartel]

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

Its not that we dont get that. Its that the audience is expected to project themselves onto these boys with such lack of love knowledge which, considering the audience is sexually attracted to at least some of the girls, is really annoying. They dont wanna see the main character cry and whine when his friend rubs her big breasts on his head, they wanna see him grope her!

And you know most teenage boys think about sex way more than that irl. Harem lead guys are almost always some laughably unrealistically holy virgins that dont even masturbate.

Virginity is the best gift you can give to your beloved. Amen.

But yes, I agree that we guys IRL think about sex more than the average harem MC, even such a virgin (and I mean by virgin "no girlfriend since birth) like me.

And like GenjiChan, I hate that fact as well. Infidelity has been the bane of relationships since the dawn of history. No wonder there are man-haters IRL. But we're going really left-field here, so I'll have to leave this topic for a while until I could think of my most hated anime cliche from the top of my head.

[Chiibi]

I think the harem leads that DON'T immediately grope every girl who they meet are probably supposed to be a type of role model for the teen audience.

"Don't be a pervert. Treat a girl like a lady instead of a sex object."

Is this really a BAD message?
I don't think so.

Harem lead guys are almost always some laughably unrealistically holy virgins thatt dont even masturbate.

Well, for one thing, direct masturbating cannot be shown in anime on TV. Panty and Stocking managed to get around this by using HEAVILY implied metaphors....but that was a rare case. It also happens in Code Geass and The End of Evangelion but the scenes are SO subtle that if you blink once, you might not understand what just happened. (I had to rewind both scenes before I went O___O

As for manga....

Spoiler for Love Hina:

There are some scenes that imply Keitaro, the 'wimpy harem lead', does do it from time to time. He even tries to have sex with his chosen girl a couple times before they get married at the end. Of course, you don't see much.

[judasmartel]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Treat a girl like a lady, not a sex object.

"Perverts in the real world are scum, but those who treat girls as sex objects are worse than scum."

Not a bad message at all, brethren.

But yes, harem MCs DO masturbate and have sex with their girls during their spare them, it just happens offscreen.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

I think the harem leads that DON'T immediately grope every girl who they meet are probably supposed to be a type of role model for the teen audience.

"Don't be a pervert. Treat a girl like a lady instead of a sex object."

Is this really a BAD message?
I don't think so.

I agree. But I disagree in thinking that a typical harem show with a bunch of ditzy moe stereotypes gives a hoot about "treating ladies nicely".

[Chiibi]

They are only stereotypes created to appeal to otaku; not necessarily reflections on how the studio views real women.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

Its not that we dont get that. Its that the audience is expected to project themselves onto these boys with such lack of love knowledge which, considering the audience is sexually attracted to at least some of the girls, is really annoying. They dont wanna see the main character cry and whine when his friend rubs her big breasts on his head, they wanna see him grope her!

Are you sure about that?

One thing that stands out to me about the portrayal of "moe girls" in anime is how a lot of it really is one big tease.

I'm a big fan of yuri, and I'm struck by how often a popular yuri pairing never moves beyond the hint/implied stage. How such pairings often remain ambiguous: Are they "just friends" or are they more? The yuri anime often gives plenty hints supporting "they're more", but it often (if not typically) falls short of outright confirming this (even with just a kiss, say).

Then, look at how romances tend to be handled in KyoAni shows (such shows tending to be very popular and well-selling). How often do such romances feature an actual kiss? And if there is a kiss, how often is it "just a dream" or "just an accident"?

If this sort of approach was disliked by most otakus, then why does it continue on so frequently? No, this type of approach is so widespread and commonplace that I can only conclude that it is a popular and well-liked approach amongst otakus (i.e. Japanese hardcore anime fans).

I can only conclude that otakus love to be tantalized and teased.

And maybe that's fine if you put yourself into the right mindset for it, and are willing to be satisfied by something other than a total "payoff".

And you know most teenage boys think about sex way more than that irl. Harem lead guys are almost always some laughably unrealistically holy virgins thatt dont even masturbate.

How do you know that they don't masturbate? I wouldn't assume that they don't masturbate just because they don't show it on camera. I admittedly don't watch North American TV sitcoms all that much, but I don't recall masturbation scenes being all the rage on North American TV either.

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

I agree. But I disagree in thinking that a typical harem show with a bunch of ditzy moe stereotypes gives a hoot about "treating ladies nicely".

I think Chiibi has a point here. I think the male lead in many of these shows are intended to come across as reasonably gentlemanly and respectful of the girls that are interested in them (perhaps because it's hoped/thought that the male viewers will be the same way). And that means not taking advantage of the feelings those girls have for them in quick and shallow ways.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

They are only stereotypes created to appeal to otaku; not necessarily reflections on how the studio views real women.

Exactly my point. Even if some loser watches a moe show to learn how to treat to women, the studios not gonna care. Theyre gonna be the minority.

I think Im not on the same page as you.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

How do you know that they don't masturbate? I wouldn't assume that they don't masturbate just because they don't show it on camera. I admittedly don't watch North American TV sitcoms all that much, but I don't recall masturbation scenes being all the rage on North American TV either.

Man, I dont live in anime, of course I dont know for sure. But you got my point, right? Theyre way more asexual than a normal guy would be.

I think Chiibi has a point here. I think the male lead in many of these shows are intended to come across as reasonably gentlemanly and respectful of the girls that are interested in them (perhaps because it's hoped/thought that the male viewers will be the same way). And that means not taking advantage of the feelings those girls have for them in quick and shallow ways.

Its not about the feelings. Its about the touching, the groping, the inappropriate molesting the girls do to guy. And not a hot guy, not a popular guy, all to some quiet, plain jane guy. Since when did people like that get all the hot girls swarming to him? Seems like self-insert sue or something.

Its like lol no. And I know its possible, but it happens in like most harem anime.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

Exactly my point. Even if some loser watches a moe show to learn how to treat to women, the studios not gonna care. Theyre gonna be the minority.

I don't think it's about watching a moe show to "learn how to treat women".

I think it's that (at least some) viewers already have a hope/expectation that the male lead will treat the girls/women in his harem with a certain respect.

Consider Makoto Itou. Here's a guy that took full advantage of his harem, and moved fairly quickly into the "groping" stage. Now, did people go "F Yeah!" over his actions, or did they hate him for it?


Edit: I think a good way to approach things is to maybe show the male lead fantasizing about his girlfriend and/or the girl of his dreams. I felt this was something that Mysterious Girlfriend X did pretty well, although that's not a harem anime of course. I'll admit that some harem anime male leads border on asexual, and that is hard to swallow, agreed.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't think it's about watching a moe show to "learn how to treat women".

I think it's that (at least some) viewers already have a hope/expectation that the male lead will treat the girls/women in his harem with a certain respect.

Consider Makoto Itou. Here's a guy that took full advantage of his harem, and moved fairly quickly into the "groping" stage. Now, did people go "F Yeah!" over his actions, or did they hate him for it?

You dont have to be a hapless, inexperienced guy like most harem leads to be a nice guy who respects women. Im sure not.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

You dont have to be a hapless, inexperienced guy like most harem leads to be a nice guy who respects women. Im sure not.

You're right. That's why I put my edit in - Unfortunately, it didn't get in quick enough, lol.

I think it might be good if more harem anime showed the male lead fantasizing about one or more of the girls in his show. That would be a good way to show that he's a "normal, hotblooded male", imo.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You're right. That's why I put my edit in - Unfortunately, it didn't get in quick enough, lol.

I think it might be good if more harem anime showed the male lead fantasizing about one or more of the girls in his show. That would be a good way to show that he's a "normal, hotblooded male", imo.

Oh, sorry. Now I see your post.

And to sum myself up, my main point is that Im annoyed by plain (at best) guys having a bunch of could do way better girls on him (a few, okay, but that many??), and then he whines and screams instead of, like, telling them that molesting him isnt cool or enjoying it. It also often plays into that stupid rule that girls can hit guys, b/c everyone knows women are infinitely weaker beings who cant possibly hurt men, so shut up and take all that "abuse".

The reason Im annoyed is because it seems like, and probably is, self-insert shit (either on the authors part or intended for the audience to do so). And for the record, thats the same reason I hate the main character in Twilight, shes an annoyingly bland "I dont care about anything" character who mysteriously manages to get every hot guy she meets to fall for her by doing nothing. Cool if thats what you like, but I cant and dont want to project myself onto fictional characters I didnt make up.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You're right. That's why I put my edit in - Unfortunately, it didn't get in quick enough, lol.

I think it might be good if more harem anime showed the male lead fantasizing about one or more of the girls in his show. That would be a good way to show that he's a "normal, hotblooded male", imo.

That depends on the type of character the main character is in the harem serie. "Hetares" and "donkans" (the more stereotypical harem leads) don't do that as it goes against their personality, but perverts like Issei from Highschool DxD do

Also why is this thread almost derailing into another "harem lead" discussion topic?

[totoum]

Yeah,I'd like to point Kudryavka towards this thread for discussion on this topic.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by totoum

Yeah,I'd like to point Kudryavka towards this thread for discussion on this topic.

Since when was I the only person talking to myself about this topic??

Anyway thanks.

I never said it shouldnt be done, I just said why I dont like it, then gave a good reason. Just like this thread is supposed to be about. So if anyone derailed this, it wasnt me.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

Since when was I the only person talking to myself about this topic??

Anyway thanks.

I really didn't mean any offense by singling you out, just that you seemed the most curious on the subject so I figured you'd be interested in the thread.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by totoum

I really didn't mean any offense by singling you out, just that you seemed the most curious on the subject so I figured you'd be interested in the thread.

Sorry if I sounded offended. Thank you but Im really not curious about this. I just wanted to share my thoughts, someone pointed out a flaw with my reason, we discussed. Thats it.

[Shyni]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

One thing that stands out to me about the portrayal of "moe girls" in anime is how a lot of it really is one big tease.

I'm a big fan of yuri, and I'm struck by how often a popular yuri pairing never moves beyond the hint/implied stage. How such pairings often remain ambiguous: Are they "just friends" or are they more? The yuri anime often gives plenty hints supporting "they're more", but it often (if not typically) falls short of outright confirming this (even with just a kiss, say).

Then, look at how romances tend to be handled in KyoAni shows (such shows tending to be very popular and well-selling). How often do such romances feature an actual kiss? And if there is a kiss, how often is it "just a dream" or "just an accident"?

If this sort of approach was disliked by most otakus, then why does it continue on so frequently? No, this type of approach is so widespread and commonplace that I can only conclude that it is a popular and well-liked approach amongst otakus (i.e. Japanese hardcore anime fans).

I can only conclude that otakus love to be tantalized and teased.

And maybe that's fine if you put yourself into the right mindset for it, and are willing to be satisfied by something other than a total "payoff".

I've read somewhere about how otaku yuri fans actually don't want lesbians in their yuri. Something about how they're actually pretty un-progressive, and can't accept that a female x female couple can feel as "complete" as any male x female one.

Here:

This story is about the little moments of domestic bliss that are the majority of time spent in a marriage. On 2chan, the response was, "why should I care?" and a lot of derision about lesbians and why they don't want lesbians in their Yuri. That's why this story is important. Because, no, Yuri fandom, especially the male half, are not more open-minded and accepting. If anything they are usually less - sexually immature sometimes, sexually conservative frequently. Otaku in Japan are rarely socially liberal. Social and political equality for gay couples is not even in the playbook, much less a priority.

So when "Fufu" covers this territory, gently, adorably forcing this audience to repeatedly confront the fact that lesbian couples are happy without a man, and would like to have words and laws that protect their status absolutely - it is important.

I think it might have something to do with how yuri couples are supposed to represent some sort of "purity", (hence the association with lilies?) so anyone "I want to have sex with this chick" is viewed as "dirtying" the characters.

I don't really know how true that is, since I don't get emotionally invested in what relationships there *could* be, and I guess I find it lazy for writers or whoever to build up romance, but never take it anywhere.