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Feng Lengshun · 2014-01-30, 06:15

^ Disputing about legends. It's like we don't have enough of that in the LN that it must be brought here...

On Ama's power, it's all speculah. Godou ain't ever demonstrated feat about any extra power (or did he?), so can't say anything about it. No feat, no proof. No proof, not canon. Unless someone can bring quotation about it? I'm not very sure, last time I read the earlier volumes was when it was just translated after all (around the time the anime was done airing IIRC).

Superbia · 2014-01-30, 10:20

The confusing thing is that in the legend while the Ama-no-Murakumo-no-Tsurugi was in Susanoo's possesion, it didn't control the wind. But later when it came into Yamato Takeru's possesion it could control the wind.

Also, does Ena's wind based powers come from Ama, Susanoo's power, or her own technique?

Breimoon · 2014-01-30, 10:46

i think she uses her grampa's power as for the wind.

chrono25 · 2014-01-30, 12:39

if I am not mistaken the sword became part god because of its time with Susanoo it may have already carried the power to absord and copy powers hence being in close contact for so long it could have copiied his power

RpR1337 · 2014-01-30, 16:28

The sword is like "a cheap copy of Susano". That was a quote from the LN featuring Ama and Ena, Feng (said by Godou in the Netherworld, wielding the Warrior while having an understanding of its divinity).
Breimoon/chrono: the verses Ena use (actually a collection of old japanese literature) are Susano's, or Ama's verses (depending on the situations). But Ama's verses always include Susano, while Susano's verses actually refer more to "the land of Susa" then he himself.

I think it's safe to say that the divine power belongs to both of them (since when using Divine Posession, it's sometimes stated that Ena is filled with Susano's power, other times that she's filled with Ama's).

Also, there are certain interesting facts about that sword and the "dual partnership". As of now, if memory serves me right, once used with the authorities of Verethragna, it manifests in a certain form easily (as stated in "Transient Holy Night", where he easily summons the mixed sword for slicing apart Divine Artifacts, even though the first drawing of that sword was ... khm, "heavily strenuous"

). Up to date, it was combined with the Goat to create magnetic fields, the Warrior to create the Divine Artifact slicing sword, the Boar to give it extra destructive power (really, as if it needs that at all - all hail OP Boar), and most recently the Wind to give Ena the "Sword of Wind", the new, more powerful (and probably a helluva lot safer) trump card than her Divine Posession. In truth, I don't see any use in fusing it with the Youth or the Ram, but apart from these, there's still the Camel, the Bull, the Bird of Prey and the White Stallion. Supposing they can be fused with Ama, he still has a lot of trump cards to offer.

Also, don't forget that when he fought Sun Wukong, he himself (apparently without any interference from Ama) fused two authorities together when he created his new power (dubbed by my magnificent and incredible naming sense) the "Disco Ball" - artificial white sun which shot the swords in the form of laser beams. Supposing he can fuse his powers even without help from Ama (F.e. my mind's eye sees him dualcasting the Camel and the Goat to do some magic melee mayhem, or the Bull and the Wind to produce something like shockwaves or sound explosions, or maybe a pairing of the Camel and the Raptor combined with wielding Ama to make an invincible warrior? Who knows.), he might even go beyond his dear Nee-san in martial power. Also, not to forget that he himself still has some unexpected skills when using "outsourced" incarnations (like the charging ability he gains when he uses the Boar ... sigh, why doesn't the author elaborate it once it's been flunged out in the open when he duels Erica ...), which means even more crazy stuff. Truly, a "Warlord of ever changing forms". I can barely stop my brain from imagining the sheer awesomeness

Well, as for myths, why not speak about them? It's a very interesting topic after all.
So, in accordance with that, let me throw a new discussion out there (Feng, apart from grumbling a lot, is in fact quite an awesome partner in discussions after all) - it was probably mentioned somewhere in the abyss of 460 pages, but who could that "King of the End" be?

And to facilitate the start, I guess I'll share my deductions.

Spoiler for King of the End:

As for the info I know, here are the things:
-Member of steel. Probably depicted with a sword at least once. (First info shared by Pandora in the "Boundary of life and Immortality").
-If she wasn't referring to Perseus (quite likely though, through his authority to rob priestesses of their will, but I'll mention it anyway, since this is not obvious from the translations EDIT: on second thought, since it's the authority of "Serpent slaying hero", it might be something "common" like the immortality of sun gods, or the indestructibility of steel wargods, so we could say it's about the King of the End after all), according to Pandora, "an enemy of women". (Shared right after being of steel).
-World-wide wanderer, sleeps near Japan, seems to have a connection to "islands beyond land and sea" (Atlantis, Avalon, etc etc).
-Slayer of at least one serpent divinity (referred to as "dragon"), with a bow and arrows (shared by the "Princess of Glass" in Godou's dream, right after the Winter Solstice incident).
-A greek hero, member of the Argonauts (shared by Circe at the end of "Princess-godess of the South Seas"), the crew of the ship Argo, which held the most prestigeous greek heroes.
-A hybrid identity, with the dispositions of both the War god of Steel and the Pan-european Wanderer (deduced by Alec at the end of "Princess Godess of the South Seas").
-Probably an extremely distinguished warrior tired of battles, and among legends of his amalgamation of divinity, he has Artos (the proto-indo-european word for bear, not to be confused with the bread used in orthodox practices). Artos being a derivation of the celtic bear godess Artio (given her origin of country and legends surrounding her) is also the source of the name "Arthur". The last two volumes, although he finally comes out in "Son of the Godess", share quite little info about him.

Well, that's that. As for my deductions from this base of informations, I came up with three names.

The first one would obviously be Heracles (though at this point, I seriously don't know what to say, knowing that the "model" for Hercules was in fact none other than Verethragna, as stated in god-knows-which LN, by god-knows-who, but connections could also turn out to be fun plot twists - take Mitra/Perseus' case f.e.). Since he can wield a sword, he qualifies as a member of steel (though his usual weapon is a club instead of a sword), but not really an enemy of women (as said, this criteria is ambigious anyway EDIT: or not so much). World-wide wanderer. Yup, right on target. Slayer of at least one serpent deity with a bow and arrows - Hydra (qualifies, and the actual method she was slain with was immolated arrows). Member of the Argonauts - check. He is indeed. Hybrid of War god of Steel and indo-european wanderer (first is evident IF we accept him being a member of Steel, for his qualities with the sword, second is also evident, since his legends have connections to both Verethragna, Gilgamesh, Arthur, and many others). Tired of battles ... yeah, sounds about right. In fact, even the labors would be enough for a lifetime.
Also, an interesting little thing - since he's protected by the up-to-date never appeared Zeus (being his son), it might be a nice answer as to why his name couldn't be heard "because of thunder" (when gods associated with steel are rarely associated with thunder - apart from, guess who? Susano, of course, disregarding we're speaking greek here, not japanese, though Susano states that he has "some intricate connection" with him in "Princess Godess of the South Seas"). Well, he fits suprisingly nicely.

The second one would be Jason. There are two problems with him (though he most certainly is a natural enemy of women, proven by his fate of having "a self-styled godess of faithfulness", in truth, "a madly jealous maiden cheated on many times by her husband", in other words, Hera, simply drop the entire Argo on his head as punishment for his vile acts againtst women) - one would be slaying a serpent (when getting the golden fleece, Medea puts the dragon keeping it to sleep with potions and magic, although that can be easily overturned), and that he has little to no connection to any beasts at all (most of his kills amount to out-of-the-ordinary humans).

And the third one would be Theseus. Now, the problems with him would be that he isn't that much of a wanderer (though being a great adventure covering the entire Mediterranean, and even a part of Turkey, we could say all the Argonauts are great wanderers), but all else fits beautifully. He can also be categorized as steel, since even though he had no conflicts with snakes or dragons, he did slay the Minotaur, which was named as a "god of land and the labirynth", therefore his enmity with the earht can be said to be "qualified". The biggest problem though would be him being a member of the Argonauts - while roughly half of the literature states he is, the other half states that he was stuck in the Underworld during the adventures of Jason's group (for the sin of the attempted kidnapping of Aphrodite, spouse of Hades, he was literally "stoned" for many months, in other words, mystically glued to a stone near the entrance where he sat down to rest). This may be overturned by the fact that it is canon that he was rescued by Heracles, who was definetly an argonaut.

Well, these are my takes on the question at hand. If anyone else has any other ideas, please, share and elaborate. I might have overlooked some details, since it's been 6 years I last studied mithologies.

Kadi · 2014-01-30, 17:00

Hmm...

Spoiler for Bla:

haseo0408 · 2014-01-30, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadi

Hmm...

Spoiler for Bla:

I have problem with Jason beside thos already mention, many scholars consider that even when the Argos was full of well known heroesyou can´t really count Jason among them, the actions he took in his life were beyond selfish and terribly cruel specially in Medea´s case. The King of the End was in theory a hero in all the sense of the word with great charm towards women, Jason doesn´t really fit at all.

Kadi · 2014-01-30, 19:49

True, but Jou-chan may very well re-interpret his story as a tragedy, where he suffers from circumstance and ill will and not from dickishness to the extreme. And it may have been retconned in the meantime, but according to Athena the KotE did suffer from women's hands at some point...

Btw, on BT, there is now a topic with all the available information on Vol 16. It is... underwhelming.

*goes back to re-reading Meiyaku no Leviathan*

haseo0408 · 2014-01-30, 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadi

True, but Jou-chan may very well re-interpret his story as a tragedy, where he suffers from circumstance and ill will and not from dickishness to the extreme. And it may have been retconned in the meantime, but according to Athena the KotE did suffer from women's hands at some point...

Btw, on BT, there is now a topic with all the available information on Vol 16. It is... underwhelming.

*goes back to re-reading Meiyaku no Leviathan*

It´s going to be short stories for what it seems, well to be expected after the awesome arc last time. By the way, Kadi-san if it is Jason the suffering at the hands of a woman my refer to Medea did to him in his wedding, never cheat on a sorceress with a bad tempere, hell, for all we know Medea might have been the first yandere along with goddess Ishtar.

zzhk · 2014-01-30, 20:05

I should point out that with Heretic Gods, you'll need to distinguish between the original myth that the god manifested from and the subsequent traits circulating after the god began to walk the earth. For example, the wandering aspect could very well be describing the King of the End AFTER he was summoned.

As for the Argonauts connection, the King of the End doesn't need to be one of the actual members on the Argo. Circe's hint was simply to search the lineages there, meaning that ancestors and descendants of the Argonauts also qualify.

haseo0408 · 2014-01-30, 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by zzhk

I should point out that with Heretic Gods, you'll need to distinguish between the original myth that the god manifested from and the subsequent traits circulating after the god began to walk the earth. For example, the wandering aspect could very well be describing the King of the End AFTER he was summoned.

As for the Argonauts connection, the King of the End doesn't need to be one of the actual members on the Argo. Circe's hint was simply to search the lineages there, meaning that ancestors and descendants of the Argonauts also qualify.

Wow, considering that huge was packed with heroes, demigods and even kings that´s pretty long list. Hell, everyone in the ship was a candidate to become an Heretic God so it´s no wonder the King of the End might be a descendant of the crew, as I said before I hope Circe was right and it´s not Jason, he didn´t have any kids, did he?.

Superbia · 2014-01-31, 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by zzhk

As for the Argonauts connection, the King of the End doesn't need to be one of the actual members on the Argo. Circe's hint was simply to search the lineages there, meaning that ancestors and descendants of the Argonauts also qualify.

Actually, Circe doesn't even say that he's connected to Argonauts, but the Argo itself. This might mean that instead of the crew, they have to look into the background of the story itself, which supposedly has ties with Nart Sagas of Caucasus.

RpR1337 · 2014-01-31, 02:14

Jason did have kids, it's just that they were butchered by Medea for his betrayal.

Most of the descendants of the Argonauts were just as underwhelming as the info about the next volume, apparently. They themselves were the pinnacle of greek heroes after all.

Haseo - Jason excluded from the argonauts for that weak a reason? Man, he was both the assembler of the crew, and the leader of the expedition. And most of the greek heroes, if you look up some details on them, "weren't approved by the ethics comittee", so to speak. Like slaying villagers/priests/guards etc etc, sacking villages, kidnapping maidens, desecrating temples, and god knows how many more "vile acts" (it was only natural, so ...).

Superbia/zzhk - she talks about the pedigree of Argo, which is a term in greek mithology referring to the argonauts, "the voucher to become one of Argo's crew", meaning the greatest greek heroes. Well, to be honest, I'm not sure how much you know of the argonauts, but there aren't all that many "great ancestors" they have there (other than f.e. Heracles and Perseus' father Zeus, Theseus' father Poseidon, etc etc), nor do they have "striking descendants" (the only known descendant I can think of off the top of my hat would be Heleus, son of Perseus, grandson of Zeus). Well, the ones actually worth mentioning even from the crew itself would be (in no particular order) Perseus, Theseus, Heracles, Jason, Argos, Castor and Pollux. All the others are "technically fodder", not really known names (they did have their moments of glory thouh, just vastly overshadowed by the aforementioned men).

Kadi - Jason in fact had luck with women ... he did get familiar with one too many of them after all. Heck, he only got to the golden fleece because of him seducing Medea. He was a problematic individual who brought suffering to the women through his unfaithful ways. As stated above, that's the reason why he died a morbid death of having a whole ship whacked on top of his head by Hera.
Also, about Heracles - he did in fact suffer because of women, because at his own wedding, he was (though, unintentionally) killed by his own spouse. As for the other concern, he really wasn't that much of a hero. He was indeed one with valorous deeds, but just as much as he was a hero, he was also a brutish and cruel avenger at times (look up a bit about his history for references). He also enjoyed tests of mettle, which would nicely fit with the King of the End's attitude towards Godou when they met in the past. And one more thing - stating that it is his unavoidable destiny to fight Devil Kings, but being tired of it nevertheless, is just as if it was "another labor". I might be seeing too much into this, but he speaks of his destiny exterminating Devil Kings as if it were an unavoidable task like the twelve labors, but thoroughly stressing and unappealing.
Well, might just be my imagination.

EDIT: where and when was Hecate mentioned in the LN? I've read every volume, but I don't remember any reference about her ...

Feng Lengshun · 2014-01-31, 10:13

Jason is more towards the heavily favored kind of hero rather than actual hero or seducer. It was more because the gods made Medea fell heads over heels for him that he was able to get the Fleece. This also reminds me of another hero with a lot of favors going on his back: Perseus. Oh, and the resulting personality. I dunno, but with Jason it didn't really match with KotE's personality.

On Heracles, I remember that the reason for his death was a betrayal/backstabbing but it was partly his fault too. I think that one of the people he had wronged during his journey whispered to his wife or something, telling her to put the hydra's poison on his coat. Or was it Hera? I forgot. Though the guy was so badass that his reflexive reaction right after wearing it killed the guy who put it on him, on pure accident. Then he needed to be burned on a pyre so that he can finally die. That's right, one of the world's deadliest poison can't kill him. Sure, it sticks, makes him feel very painful, and it has no cure, but it isn't killing him either. The guy was too badass for that. Add up that he actually tries to atone for a mistake that he actually didn't make... yeah, this is one of the few actual hero in legends. This guy is one of the few that is at least as badass as Odysseus if not more.

Personally though, from what I've seen of KotE, it seems that he's from a rather 'inconclusive' or 'open-ended' myth. I don't know, something about how the character had acted made me think so, it just feels weird for it to be something conclusive like Heracles. Of course, then again, there's Sun Wu Kong. His myths are pretty conclusive yet he still acted... like that. Like none of the character development happening through the story ever happened.

Also, at least call it "The Sun" instead of "disco ball". And poor Sun Wu Kong had handled it shows the performance of this verse against JoJo verse... whelp, a crossover would be kind of hard considering how broken the powers in the latter could get (don't mind me, just been having quite a lot powerlevel debate lately and discussing possible Campione crossovers). And me grumbling? (Puffs cheek) I don't grumble (goes off to sulk).

Still, there's just one question I'm wondering: Can (Heretic) Gods have character developments? I mean, that's not the feature in their story, they're more like ideas given form (more apt than I thought...). Not only that, in-story, Athena was still the same even in her deathbed, still about battle, battle, battle. On the other hand, there are the Old Ones (or whatever Cthulhu reference they're referring those Under World backer of HCC), they're more wise than normal divine being, but that can be attributed to them calming down after hundreds of years... or having character developments from living for hundred of years. Still, if it was possible, then personality matching didn't really matter considering that KotE can just "had a character development hence why he was different from the myths" in which case I'm flipping my tables in rage.

Breimoon · 2014-01-31, 10:20

the problem with myths is that you don't just consider the myth itself but its origin, how it changed from the original, hero prototypes etc so things get harder for those who have not studied myths at school/home but just read a few. So while there may be Heracles elements its true name may be different.

Ultragunner · 2014-01-31, 10:20

Actually, a god is only called "Heretic" when he/she enters the mortal realm. The most obvious case is the True Lord Erlang story, the guy can only maintain his benevolent and noble characteristics because he didn't fully manifest in the human world. If he does, he will just become another Heretic Gods that cause nothing but disasters

RpR1337 · 2014-01-31, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun

And me grumbling? (Puffs cheek) I don't grumble (goes off to sulk).

Well, if that gets you through the night bro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun

Still, there's just one question I'm wondering: Can (Heretic) Gods have character developments? (...) Athena was still the same even in her deathbed, still about battle, battle, battle. (...) Still, if it was possible, then personality matching didn't really matter considering that KotE can just "had a character development hence why he was different from the myths" in which case I'm flipping my tables in rage.

Hope my makeshift double quoting works out.
Well, I myself think that they do have "character development". After all, if you think back on Lancelot, I can 120% say that she didn't have the character (and annoying speech) of a XVII. englishman 1500 years prior, when she manifested. That kind of attitude and behaviour should be the product of hundreds of years of accumulated experience, observation, and effort. Also, thinking back on Circe, she probably had a "normal" relationship with that annoying Alec (at least without the arm-and-leg-tearing stuff). Just an example there, but it's quite logical to say that those who find something "worth their time" would change (as did Athena, who after hinting on perhaps a bit of romance - blame the kind of fate we had between us - smiled in a way that even made Godou suprised). At least, that's my take on it.

Also, usually Heretic Gods are counter to their original myths. As stated above by Ultragunner. For example, a defender of city walls would try to sink cities (Melqart). Or perhaps a hero god who protects would start abusing his authority and torment people (Verethragna). After all, "breaking out of their myths and thereby manifesting is what makes them Heretic Gods".

EDIT: oh, btw, the one who gave Heracles' spouse the shirt with the venom was a centaur, don't ask his name though, cause' it just eludes me right now.

teejmo · 2014-01-31, 15:51

I think there are some aspects of Herakles that people are mistaken about. For one, the guy wasn't that much of a hero. Sure, Zeus saw him fit to be a god and took him up to Olympus, but most of the time Herakles was just acting on his anger. He killed a teacher just because the teacher did what many teachers do and scolded a troublemaker. He also killed his sons just because he saw them as enemies (granted, Hera made him see them as enemies, but still - I doubt their actions were reason enough to kill them). That, along with his wife dying of a broken heart, sent him on the whole labors quest. And one time he killed a king because a friend of his was killed by the king's horses. Which may seem fine (you know, eye for an eye), but the horses were originally stolen from the king by Herakles. Again, not so heroic, son of Zeus.

As to how Herakles died, the coat he wore that was covered in poison was given to him by his second wife, because she was scared he was falling for another girl. Now, she had thought the poison was actually a love potion. This was because years before she had been kidnapped by a centaur named Nessus, and Herakles had used his Hydra-poison-tipped arrows to shoot him down. Nessus figured out what killed him and knew his blood was now tainted, so as a last measure of revenge, he lied to Herakles' wife and told her his blood was the love potion. The poison would have been a slow and painful death for Herakles, so he decided he wanted go down in flames (literally). At that moment Zeus made him a god. But all that wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been a philandering idiot in the first place.

Ickarium · 2014-01-31, 15:59

Pretty much all the Greek gods were dicks, yeah. Even the 'least dickish' of them like Artemis, Athena, Hephaestus, and Hades did really bad things, depending on what you're looking at. Transformation-Murder, Transformation-Torture, Rape, and Stalking-Rape respectively, for the usual suspects for those.

RpR1337 · 2014-01-31, 16:41

Can't say I share the thoughts mentioned, but can't say I'll argue againtst them either ...
Little correction on Heracles: killed his sons because he was mislead by magic by a jealous Hera. Yea, suppose you could've done something about that, while being in a state akin to a heroin addict running from UFOs right?
Wife dying of a broken heart - yup, but her heart didn't break because of Heracles, but because of the deaths of their children, which was because of Hera.
Killed a king because his horses killed his friend which were stolen by him ... stealing horses repaid with murder ... yea, can't simpathize with that.

Stop thinking with a XXI. century head. Being a hero in the time of Odyssey and Iliad wasn't about chivalry. It just wasn't that kind of a world.

P.S. : Hades, being the "least dickish"? Man, you've got one wild imagination

2014-01-30, 06:15	Link #9241
Feng Lengshun Old Wine Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: In my Body	^ Disputing about legends. It's like we don't have enough of that in the LN that it must be brought here... On Ama's power, it's all speculah. Godou ain't ever demonstrated feat about any extra power (or did he?), so can't say anything about it. No feat, no proof. No proof, not canon. Unless someone can bring quotation about it? I'm not very sure, last time I read the earlier volumes was when it was just translated after all (around the time the anime was done airing IIRC). __________________ *A Really* Extensive Guide on Making a Story, OCs, and Characterizations.**

2014-01-30, 16:28	Link #9245
RpR1337 fun^10*int^40=Ir2 Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Hungary	The sword is like "a cheap copy of Susano". That was a quote from the LN featuring Ama and Ena, Feng (said by Godou in the Netherworld, wielding the Warrior while having an understanding of its divinity). Breimoon/chrono: the verses Ena use (actually a collection of old japanese literature) are Susano's, or Ama's verses (depending on the situations). But Ama's verses always include Susano, while Susano's verses actually refer more to "the land of Susa" then he himself. I think it's safe to say that the divine power belongs to both of them (since when using Divine Posession, it's sometimes stated that Ena is filled with Susano's power, other times that she's filled with Ama's). Also, there are certain interesting facts about that sword and the "dual partnership". As of now, if memory serves me right, once used with the authorities of Verethragna, it manifests in a certain form easily (as stated in "Transient Holy Night", where he easily summons the mixed sword for slicing apart Divine Artifacts, even though the first drawing of that sword was ... khm, "heavily strenuous" ). Up to date, it was combined with the Goat to create magnetic fields, the Warrior to create the Divine Artifact slicing sword, the Boar to give it extra destructive power (really, as if it needs that at all - all hail OP Boar), and most recently the Wind to give Ena the "Sword of Wind", the new, more powerful (and probably a helluva lot safer) trump card than her Divine Posession. In truth, I don't see any use in fusing it with the Youth or the Ram, but apart from these, there's still the Camel, the Bull, the Bird of Prey and the White Stallion. Supposing they can be fused with Ama, he still has a lot of trump cards to offer. Also, don't forget that when he fought Sun Wukong, he himself (apparently without any interference from Ama) fused two authorities together when he created his new power (dubbed by my magnificent and incredible naming sense) the "Disco Ball" - artificial white sun which shot the swords in the form of laser beams. Supposing he can fuse his powers even without help from Ama (F.e. my mind's eye sees him dualcasting the Camel and the Goat to do some magic melee mayhem, or the Bull and the Wind to produce something like shockwaves or sound explosions, or maybe a pairing of the Camel and the Raptor combined with wielding Ama to make an invincible warrior? Who knows.), he might even go beyond his dear Nee-san in martial power. Also, not to forget that he himself still has some unexpected skills when using "outsourced" incarnations (like the charging ability he gains when he uses the Boar ... sigh, why doesn't the author elaborate it once it's been flunged out in the open when he duels Erica ...), which means even more crazy stuff. Truly, a "Warlord of ever changing forms". I can barely stop my brain from imagining the sheer awesomeness Well, as for myths, why not speak about them? It's a very interesting topic after all. So, in accordance with that, let me throw a new discussion out there (Feng, apart from grumbling a lot, is in fact quite an awesome partner in discussions after all) - it was probably mentioned somewhere in the abyss of 460 pages, but who could that "King of the End" be? And to facilitate the start, I guess I'll share my deductions. Spoiler for King of the End: As for the info I know, here are the things: -Member of steel. Probably depicted with a sword at least once. (First info shared by Pandora in the "Boundary of life and Immortality"). -If she wasn't referring to Perseus (quite likely though, through his authority to rob priestesses of their will, but I'll mention it anyway, since this is not obvious from the translations EDIT: on second thought, since it's the authority of "Serpent slaying hero", it might be something "common" like the immortality of sun gods, or the indestructibility of steel wargods, so we could say it's about the King of the End after all), according to Pandora, "an enemy of women". (Shared right after being of steel). -World-wide wanderer, sleeps near Japan, seems to have a connection to "islands beyond land and sea" (Atlantis, Avalon, etc etc). -Slayer of at least one serpent divinity (referred to as "dragon"), with a bow and arrows (shared by the "Princess of Glass" in Godou's dream, right after the Winter Solstice incident). -A greek hero, member of the Argonauts (shared by Circe at the end of "Princess-godess of the South Seas"), the crew of the ship Argo, which held the most prestigeous greek heroes. -A hybrid identity, with the dispositions of both the War god of Steel and the Pan-european Wanderer (deduced by Alec at the end of "Princess Godess of the South Seas"). -Probably an extremely distinguished warrior tired of battles, and among legends of his amalgamation of divinity, he has Artos (the proto-indo-european word for bear, not to be confused with the bread used in orthodox practices). Artos being a derivation of the celtic bear godess Artio (given her origin of country and legends surrounding her) is also the source of the name "Arthur". The last two volumes, although he finally comes out in "Son of the Godess", share quite little info about him. Well, that's that. As for my deductions from this base of informations, I came up with three names. The first one would obviously be Heracles (though at this point, I seriously don't know what to say, knowing that the "model" for Hercules was in fact none other than Verethragna, as stated in god-knows-which LN, by god-knows-who, but connections could also turn out to be fun plot twists - take Mitra/Perseus' case f.e.). Since he can wield a sword, he qualifies as a member of steel (though his usual weapon is a club instead of a sword), but not really an enemy of women (as said, this criteria is ambigious anyway EDIT: or not so much). World-wide wanderer. Yup, right on target. Slayer of at least one serpent deity with a bow and arrows - Hydra (qualifies, and the actual method she was slain with was immolated arrows). Member of the Argonauts - check. He is indeed. Hybrid of War god of Steel and indo-european wanderer (first is evident IF we accept him being a member of Steel, for his qualities with the sword, second is also evident, since his legends have connections to both Verethragna, Gilgamesh, Arthur, and many others). Tired of battles ... yeah, sounds about right. In fact, even the labors would be enough for a lifetime. Also, an interesting little thing - since he's protected by the up-to-date never appeared Zeus (being his son), it might be a nice answer as to why his name couldn't be heard "because of thunder" (when gods associated with steel are rarely associated with thunder - apart from, guess who? Susano, of course, disregarding we're speaking greek here, not japanese, though Susano states that he has "some intricate connection" with him in "Princess Godess of the South Seas"). Well, he fits suprisingly nicely. The second one would be Jason. There are two problems with him (though he most certainly is a natural enemy of women, proven by his fate of having "a self-styled godess of faithfulness", in truth, "a madly jealous maiden cheated on many times by her husband", in other words, Hera, simply drop the entire Argo on his head as punishment for his vile acts againtst women) - one would be slaying a serpent (when getting the golden fleece, Medea puts the dragon keeping it to sleep with potions and magic, although that can be easily overturned), and that he has little to no connection to any beasts at all (most of his kills amount to out-of-the-ordinary humans). And the third one would be Theseus. Now, the problems with him would be that he isn't that much of a wanderer (though being a great adventure covering the entire Mediterranean, and even a part of Turkey, we could say all the Argonauts are great wanderers), but all else fits beautifully. He can also be categorized as steel, since even though he had no conflicts with snakes or dragons, he did slay the Minotaur, which was named as a "god of land and the labirynth", therefore his enmity with the earht can be said to be "qualified". The biggest problem though would be him being a member of the Argonauts - while roughly half of the literature states he is, the other half states that he was stuck in the Underworld during the adventures of Jason's group (for the sin of the attempted kidnapping of Aphrodite, spouse of Hades, he was literally "stoned" for many months, in other words, mystically glued to a stone near the entrance where he sat down to rest). This may be overturned by the fact that it is canon that he was rescued by Heracles, who was definetly an argonaut. Well, these are my takes on the question at hand. If anyone else has any other ideas, please, share and elaborate. I might have overlooked some details, since it's been 6 years I last studied mithologies. Last edited by RpR1337; 2014-01-30 at 16:53. Reason: Typos, second thoughts

2014-01-30, 17:00	Link #9246
Kadi 知識の探求者 Join Date: Feb 2012	Hmm... Spoiler for Bla: The tiredness of battle may have come after becoming a Heretic God. There was the fact that Susanoo calls him something along the lines of "brat", I think You found some interesting tidbits about Heracles. The thunder protecting his identity is curious and Athena did know him beforehand, too, which would figure since she's also a daughter of Zeus, but... Hecate didn't, and I think Heracles was WAY too famous for any Greek god not to know of him. Jason... was certainly traveling far and wide. Also, he did quite a lot of king-slaying, as I recall... plus, he didn't have any luck with the women, in a sense. Kind of like Black Prince Alec, I guess, just worse... Now, I think someone with the time should look into candidates for the archetypical "travelling hero". Just like Perseus was made out to be the archetypical "hero saving (raping) the maiden"...

2014-01-30, 20:05	Link #9250
zzhk Summary Machine Join Date: Apr 2011	I should point out that with Heretic Gods, you'll need to distinguish between the original myth that the god manifested from and the subsequent traits circulating after the god began to walk the earth. For example, the wandering aspect could very well be describing the King of the End AFTER he was summoned. As for the Argonauts connection, the King of the End doesn't need to be one of the actual members on the Argo. Circe's hint was simply to search the lineages there, meaning that ancestors and descendants of the Argonauts also qualify. __________________ Light Novel Translations C3 - Cube x Cursed x Curious Chronicle Legion Leviathan of the Covenant Seirei Tsukai no Blade Dance

2014-01-31, 02:14	Link #9253
RpR1337 fun^10*int^40=Ir2 Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Hungary	Jason did have kids, it's just that they were butchered by Medea for his betrayal. Most of the descendants of the Argonauts were just as underwhelming as the info about the next volume, apparently. They themselves were the pinnacle of greek heroes after all. Haseo - Jason excluded from the argonauts for that weak a reason? Man, he was both the assembler of the crew, and the leader of the expedition. And most of the greek heroes, if you look up some details on them, "weren't approved by the ethics comittee", so to speak. Like slaying villagers/priests/guards etc etc, sacking villages, kidnapping maidens, desecrating temples, and god knows how many more "vile acts" (it was only natural, so ...). Superbia/zzhk - she talks about the pedigree of Argo, which is a term in greek mithology referring to the argonauts, "the voucher to become one of Argo's crew", meaning the greatest greek heroes. Well, to be honest, I'm not sure how much you know of the argonauts, but there aren't all that many "great ancestors" they have there (other than f.e. Heracles and Perseus' father Zeus, Theseus' father Poseidon, etc etc), nor do they have "striking descendants" (the only known descendant I can think of off the top of my hat would be Heleus, son of Perseus, grandson of Zeus). Well, the ones actually worth mentioning even from the crew itself would be (in no particular order) Perseus, Theseus, Heracles, Jason, Argos, Castor and Pollux. All the others are "technically fodder", not really known names (they did have their moments of glory thouh, just vastly overshadowed by the aforementioned men). Kadi - Jason in fact had luck with women ... he did get familiar with one too many of them after all. Heck, he only got to the golden fleece because of him seducing Medea. He was a problematic individual who brought suffering to the women through his unfaithful ways. As stated above, that's the reason why he died a morbid death of having a whole ship whacked on top of his head by Hera. Also, about Heracles - he did in fact suffer because of women, because at his own wedding, he was (though, unintentionally) killed by his own spouse. As for the other concern, he really wasn't that much of a hero. He was indeed one with valorous deeds, but just as much as he was a hero, he was also a brutish and cruel avenger at times (look up a bit about his history for references). He also enjoyed tests of mettle, which would nicely fit with the King of the End's attitude towards Godou when they met in the past. And one more thing - stating that it is his unavoidable destiny to fight Devil Kings, but being tired of it nevertheless, is just as if it was "another labor". I might be seeing too much into this, but he speaks of his destiny exterminating Devil Kings as if it were an unavoidable task like the twelve labors, but thoroughly stressing and unappealing. Well, might just be my imagination. EDIT: where and when was Hecate mentioned in the LN? I've read every volume, but I don't remember any reference about her ... Last edited by RpR1337; 2014-01-31 at 02:37.

2014-01-30, 10:20	Link #9242
Superbia Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013	The confusing thing is that in the legend while the Ama-no-Murakumo-no-Tsurugi was in Susanoo's possesion, it didn't control the wind. But later when it came into Yamato Takeru's possesion it could control the wind. Also, does Ena's wind based powers come from Ama, Susanoo's power, or her own technique?

2014-01-30, 10:46	Link #9243
Breimoon Senior Member Join Date: May 2012	i think she uses her grampa's power as for the wind.

2014-01-30, 12:39	Link #9244
chrono25 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012	if I am not mistaken the sword became part god because of its time with Susanoo it may have already carried the power to absord and copy powers hence being in close contact for so long it could have copiied his power

2014-01-30, 19:49	Link #9248
Kadi 知識の探求者 Join Date: Feb 2012	True, but Jou-chan may very well re-interpret his story as a tragedy, where he suffers from circumstance and ill will and not from dickishness to the extreme. And it may have been retconned in the meantime, but according to Athena the KotE did suffer from women's hands at some point... Btw, on BT, there is now a topic with all the available information on Vol 16. It is... underwhelming. goes back to re-reading Meiyaku no Leviathan

2014-01-31, 10:13	Link #9254
Feng Lengshun Old Wine Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: In my Body	Jason is more towards the heavily favored kind of hero rather than actual hero or seducer. It was more because the gods made Medea fell heads over heels for him that he was able to get the Fleece. This also reminds me of another hero with a lot of favors going on his back: Perseus. Oh, and the resulting personality. I dunno, but with Jason it didn't really match with KotE's personality. On Heracles, I remember that the reason for his death was a betrayal/backstabbing but it was partly his fault too. I think that one of the people he had wronged during his journey whispered to his wife or something, telling her to put the hydra's poison on his coat. Or was it Hera? I forgot. Though the guy was so badass that his reflexive reaction right after wearing it killed the guy who put it on him, on pure accident. Then he needed to be burned on a pyre so that he can finally die. That's right, one of the world's deadliest poison can't kill him. Sure, it sticks, makes him feel very painful, and it has no cure, but it isn't killing him either. The guy was too badass for that. Add up that he actually tries to atone for a mistake that he actually didn't make... yeah, this is one of the few actual hero in legends. This guy is one of the few that is at least as badass as Odysseus if not more. Personally though, from what I've seen of KotE, it seems that he's from a rather 'inconclusive' or 'open-ended' myth. I don't know, something about how the character had acted made me think so, it just feels weird for it to be something conclusive like Heracles. Of course, then again, there's Sun Wu Kong. His myths are pretty conclusive yet he still acted... like that. Like none of the character development happening through the story ever happened. Also, at least call it "The Sun" instead of "disco ball". And poor Sun Wu Kong had handled it shows the performance of this verse against JoJo verse... whelp, a crossover would be kind of hard considering how broken the powers in the latter could get (don't mind me, just been having quite a lot powerlevel debate lately and discussing possible Campione crossovers). And me grumbling? (Puffs cheek) I don't grumble (goes off to sulk). Still, there's just one question I'm wondering: Can (Heretic) Gods have character developments? I mean, that's not the feature in their story, they're more like ideas given form (more apt than I thought...). Not only that, in-story, Athena was still the same even in her deathbed, still about battle, battle, battle. On the other hand, there are the Old Ones (or whatever Cthulhu reference they're referring those Under World backer of HCC), they're more wise than normal divine being, but that can be attributed to them calming down after hundreds of years... or having character developments from living for hundred of years. Still, if it was possible, then personality matching didn't really matter considering that KotE can just "had a character development hence why he was different from the myths" in which case I'm flipping my tables in rage. __________________ *A Really* Extensive Guide on Making a Story, OCs, and Characterizations.**

2014-01-31, 10:20	Link #9255
Breimoon Senior Member Join Date: May 2012	the problem with myths is that you don't just consider the myth itself but its origin, how it changed from the original, hero prototypes etc so things get harder for those who have not studied myths at school/home but just read a few. So while there may be Heracles elements its true name may be different.

2014-01-31, 10:20	Link #9256
Ultragunner Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012	Actually, a god is only called "Heretic" when he/she enters the mortal realm. The most obvious case is the True Lord Erlang story, the guy can only maintain his benevolent and noble characteristics because he didn't fully manifest in the human world. If he does, he will just become another Heretic Gods that cause nothing but disasters __________________

2014-01-31, 15:51	Link #9258
teejmo Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2013	I think there are some aspects of Herakles that people are mistaken about. For one, the guy wasn't that much of a hero. Sure, Zeus saw him fit to be a god and took him up to Olympus, but most of the time Herakles was just acting on his anger. He killed a teacher just because the teacher did what many teachers do and scolded a troublemaker. He also killed his sons just because he saw them as enemies (granted, Hera made him see them as enemies, but still - I doubt their actions were reason enough to kill them). That, along with his wife dying of a broken heart, sent him on the whole labors quest. And one time he killed a king because a friend of his was killed by the king's horses. Which may seem fine (you know, eye for an eye), but the horses were originally stolen from the king by Herakles. Again, not so heroic, son of Zeus. As to how Herakles died, the coat he wore that was covered in poison was given to him by his second wife, because she was scared he was falling for another girl. Now, she had thought the poison was actually a love potion. This was because years before she had been kidnapped by a centaur named Nessus, and Herakles had used his Hydra-poison-tipped arrows to shoot him down. Nessus figured out what killed him and knew his blood was now tainted, so as a last measure of revenge, he lied to Herakles' wife and told her his blood was the love potion. The poison would have been a slow and painful death for Herakles, so he decided he wanted go down in flames (literally). At that moment Zeus made him a god. But all that wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been a philandering idiot in the first place.

2014-01-31, 15:59	Link #9259
Ickarium Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013	Pretty much all the Greek gods were dicks, yeah. Even the 'least dickish' of them like Artemis, Athena, Hephaestus, and Hades did really bad things, depending on what you're looking at. Transformation-Murder, Transformation-Torture, Rape, and Stalking-Rape respectively, for the usual suspects for those. __________________

2014-01-31, 16:41	Link #9260
RpR1337 fun^10*int^40=Ir2 Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Hungary	Can't say I share the thoughts mentioned, but can't say I'll argue againtst them either ... Little correction on Heracles: killed his sons because he was mislead by magic by a jealous Hera. Yea, suppose you could've done something about that, while being in a state akin to a heroin addict running from UFOs right? Wife dying of a broken heart - yup, but her heart didn't break because of Heracles, but because of the deaths of their children, which was because of Hera. Killed a king because his horses killed his friend which were stolen by him ... stealing horses repaid with murder ... yea, can't simpathize with that. Stop thinking with a XXI. century head. Being a hero in the time of Odyssey and Iliad wasn't about chivalry. It just wasn't that kind of a world. P.S. : Hades, being the "least dickish"? Man, you've got one wild imagination