Kanon 2006 (Generic Discussion)

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by zalas

What *would* be interesting is to have the series "reset" after each girl's ending. XD; Makes for a more interesting canon. ;o

Taking insperation from Higurashi? It would be interesting, and at 26 episodes, there should be enough time to do it. Still, I find it unlikely KyoAni would go that route. You might get a situation where otaku only buy the dvds for the girl they like, rather than the entire series, thus losing money.

[Varion]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Please... no... I take comfort in the words of the AS mods that they won't allow these sorts of fanboy wars on new shows.

*patpat* There, there... there's always the ignore button, right? I agree with you, but I can't see it happening either, especially when people have such strong opinions before the show's even begun. It's a side-effect of harem shows unfortunately

npal, I don't think you have any worries considering KyoAni have said they want fans of all of the girls to be satisfied. I don't think it'll be a Nayuki ending but at least you can look forward to more of her story As it is, what Toei used IS Ayu's ending, the only thing they can change is how they handle it... but I'm an Ayu fan anyway so I'm not that bothered

The other thing to bear in mind is that they said in the interview a few pages back they don't want "Ep X to Ep Y being Ayu's story, Ep Z to Ep A being Nayuki's etc"... so no, we're not going to get that. It WOULD be interesting though.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by npal

And well... even Kanon is a harem anime Everyone wants their favorite girl to win The stories may be better than most of its kind, but it's still harem, and fangroups are bound to form, whether they are explicit or implicit

That's the problem with these conversions. They aren't "harem" stories - it's a branching story with different paths. Each major path in the game is a complete story to itself and, at least to the degree that they can write it, each route is justified by the decisions made by the main character. But, when they convert them to anime, they tend to merge all the stories so that it seems like all the girls are in active competition for the main character's attention. And so, as you said, people tend to cheer on their favourite character and so on. That's unfortunate, at least in my mind, because each girl's story (at least in Kanon) has value and merit. By pitting the girls against each other, at least in the audience's mind, you could see one person's story as coming at the expense of another. That's why, really, if you wanted to portray these stories as they are in the game, without leading to this "rabid fanboyism", zalas is correct: you'd have to take a path and then reset to the next path. People would still have favourites, of course, but they'd have no reason to pit the characters against each other. And I think that'd be more like the games (most of the time). That being said, I don't think that's what they're going to do here, nor is it necessarily the best thing to do marketing-wise (you want people to buy *all* the DVDs, after all).

And for what it's worth, seeing your favourite character get the "happy ending" is nice, but not at whatever the cost. Most importantly, I want them to be true to the characters. I think that probably goes without saying.

P.S. The perfectionist in me reminds you all that it's 24 episodes not 26... now I'll shut him up again

[npal]

^ Well, Toei's Ayu's ending seemed to be like "give a happy ending at whatever cost". If that's how it's written in the game, too, well... I can think of another games that fail in the ending writing department.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by npal

^ Well, Toei's Ayu's ending seemed to be like "give a happy ending at whatever cost". If that's how it's written in the game, too, well... I can think of another games that fail in the ending writing department.

Well, that could be discussed, but only if you can approach it with an open mind. I didn't see it that way - I thought it fit in with the theme and characeristics of the show and the plot. That being said, it's been a while since I've watched it, so I'd need to refresh my memory so I can remember why I thought that at time. But, in any case, this is why I'm saying that we need a seperation of "fanboyism" and plot discussion - my saying that I thought the ending makes sense doesn't mean I'm an Ayu fanboy (just as I'm sure your saying that it didn't make sense to you isn't simply because you like Nayuki better). That's the problem I have with the fanboy clubs - opinions should be judged for their content, not based on the flag you're wearing. Anyway, onward with the discussion... I've been rewatching my Kanon DVDs recently, so maybe I'll end up reconsidering my feelings about the ending at that point. We'll see.

[npal]

Eh, I was prepared for a no-girl ending. Pretty sad, but I thought it was a great way to end it. The other one was a Nayuki ending since she was more or less the only one left standing, but I thought that wasn't probable, it needed buldup that wasn't there. So I was ready for a no-girl ending. And then the miracle happened... I mean... come on... it's deus ex machina in its worst possible way... If you aren't a hardcore Ayu fan, I can't really fathom why you liked the ending.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by npal

If you aren't a hardcore Ayu fan, I can't really fathom why you liked the ending.

Sigh... see? You're cutting off the discussion already with your insinuation. People can see the ending differently than you did without being a "hardcore Ayu fan."

Spoiler:

Makoto is a reincarnated pet, Mai is a slayer of demons, and Ayu is in a coma. All of these frozen dreamworlds (of course that's not a complete list) gradually begin to thaw as they intersect with reality; as Yuuichi unlocks the keys to each girl's past and to his. Ayu coming to realize that it's a dream and waking from that dream (her coma) is, of course, hugely symbollic and in line with that theme (that kept being emphasized in the opening pre-OP narration). So, in short, I didn't think it was a "deus ex machina" ending, except to the degree that "I'm dreaming a dream..." was the point from the very first opening narration. That's probably not a very good way of explaining it, but as I said, I'll have to wait 'till I watch it again to give a more complete opinion about it.

[npal]

Well... Then it was bad directing on their part? Cause I didn't get that part. The way you describe it seems to be that the purpose of the ending is to make you feel relieved and liberated. Well, it failed for me, but I can understand the philosophy behind it. It was badly given though imo. I don't think it'd have the same impact if it was clearly given like you suggested. They purposefully made it look like something else apparently and, in doing so, made it weak. Makoto's ending is different, it had impact and held onto that impact because it was better handled, and Makoto as a character was better handled, so her appearance was justified. Ayu was fine until the final episode.

Spoiler for Ayu:

She could have woken up and died you know, much more dramatic. Not that I want people to die, but they failed to trasmit the desire of wanting Ayu alive. I thought the anime would have been much better if she had died.

I trust KyoAni to make Ayu's ending worthwhile, if they choose to use it again. The problem is that they will stick to the game apparently, and most converted h-games I've seen lack in the ending area. At the time, I thought it was pretty lame. If they wanted to do what you said, there were better ways to do it. Even if I accept that the ending was well-written in-game, it's conversion and execution were lacking, which gives the same result.

Edit: Not that I think the theme, as you explain it, is particularly interesting either, there are many series based on that theme. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt in the new Kanon however. Maybe KyoAni will do a better job handling the theme and the ending.

Ugh... Now that I have this explanation, it doesn't seem so great anymore... Maybe I should drop it from my top 5

Not to mention that they owe Nayuki most of the spotlight, since they kind of left her out of the whole series the previous time... Not that it's gonna happen... Oh well...

[zalas]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

Taking insperation from Higurashi? It would be interesting, and at 26 episodes, there should be enough time to do it. Still, I find it unlikely KyoAni would go that route. You might get a situation where otaku only buy the dvds for the girl they like, rather than the entire series, thus losing money.

Actually, I had thought of this idea before the anime adaptation of higurashi. Basically, what kind of multi-branching game would one need to write in order to have the resets be natural and part of the plot? *That* would be an interesting game to play, if done well.

[LytHka]

Originally Posted by npal

I trust KyoAni to make Ayu's ending worthwhile, if they choose to use it again.
[...]
Not to mention that they owe Nayuki most of the spotlight, since they kind of left her out of the whole series the previous time... Not that it's gonna happen... Oh well...

I think your fanboy'ism, be it for whatever girl (I don't really care), is just a really good indicator of how much you don't understand the situation of game-to-anime conversions. The two anime (Toei's and upcoming KyoAni's) are just fan service for the game franchise fans anyway. The companies will make the service most pleasing to the fans of a girl that make the biggest part of their consumers. In Kanon's case, those were definitely Ayu's fans after the game release, then after the first anime's release, her popularity increased exponentially. The remake is, again, fan service.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by zalas

Actually, I had thought of this idea before the anime adaptation of higurashi. Basically, what kind of multi-branching game would one need to write in order to have the resets be natural and part of the plot? *That* would be an interesting game to play, if done well.

Hmm... So less like Higurashi and more like Groundhog Day with an actual loop, rather than just showing each possibility? Yes, it could be interesting, but also would very easy to screw up. That's probably why that sort of thing isn't used very often. I'd love to see a game like that which was done well, but I won't hold my breath.

Originally Posted by LytHka

I think your fanboy'ism, be it for whatever girl (I don't really care), is just a really good indicator of how much you don't understand the situation of game-to-anime conversions. The two anime (Toei's and upcoming KyoAni's) are just fan service for the game franchise fans anyway. The companies will make the service most pleasing to the fans that make the biggest part of their consumers. In Kanon's case, those were definitely Ayu's fans after the game release, then after the first anime's release, her popularity increased exponentially. The remake is, again, fan service.

If you follow that line of thinking, any adaptation is simply service for the fans of the original. It may be true to a certain extent, however, an adaptation is also a seperate work which can be considered on it's own. To simply say it's just made for the fans seems to be dismissing it completely.

Besides, the fans are not the reason for an Ayu ending in the anime. Quite simply, hers is the "true" ending to Kanon, so that's what we'll see.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

If you follow that line of thinking, any adaptation is simply service for the fans of the original. It may be true to a certain extent, however, an adaptation is also a seperate work which can be considered on it's own. To simply say it's just made for the fans seems to be dismissing it completely.

I'd agree with that assessment. In fact, it's not as if you can even say that a completely original work isn't fan service - it's simply speculative rather than reactive. And really, just how speculative is it? Every anime you see is the product of market research and produced (at the sponsor(s)'s expense) in the hope of selling merchandise to their target audience; that trickles down to every aspect of the production, including story decisions. So, if you're going to dismiss all game-to-anime productions as fan service, you might as well dismiss all anime as moneygrabs - of course that's what it is. That being said, if anime is enjoyable, and has the capacity to impress, entertain, and maybe even sometimes astound us, then I don't think it's worth dismissing out of hat - even if it is "fan service".

I think the original point, though, was "if you're hoping the producers will go out on a limb to give your personal favourite character a happy ending, don't count on it - they'll just pick the most popular, since that'll make them the most money." Well, that may be true, but given that one of Kyoto's stated goals for this remake is to give each character an equal chance to shine (since each character has fans), I think we can expect more than a simple Ayu love-fest for 24 episodes. (And to be fair, the original anime wasn't like that either.) So, while of course this anime is coming to please and sell to game fans (of course), and while Ayu's ending is a near certainty, I think there's still reason for optimism, even for the die-hard Nayuki fan (or any of the other girls).

[LytHka]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think the original point, though, was "if you're hoping the producers will go out on a limb to give your personal favourite character a happy ending, don't count on it - they'll just pick the most popular, since that'll make them the most money."

Thank you. Of course the anime is a derivate and a standalone work but it is fan service if they have to make the storylines considering the feelings of fans. If Nayuki really had a big audience before the anime aired, I'm sure she would have gotten more time for herself.

I think we can expect more than a simple Ayu love-fest for 24 episodes. (And to be fair, the original anime wasn't like that either.)

Exactly. I think every girl except Nayuki got a fair presentation in Toei's anime, but certainly Ayu could have gotten more attention. 13 episodes was perhaps not enough.

[-Nyu-]

Hehe, small off topic, I found this picture of Air Now, who are these girls?^^


So kawaii *-*

[Shiroth]

From left to right~

Ayu, Nayuki & Makoto.

[npal]

And Nayuki is in the middle of course I liked that cameo when I was watching Air.

[-Nyu-]

Jop, you say it dude

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by npal

And Nayuki is in the middle of course

I don't remember leaving out Nayuki.

[npal]

No, you didn't, I was just adding the of course, with everything that might imply, coming from a Nayuki fan

[Leo_Otaku]

I never noticed Makoto has her messanger bag ^-^ Ayu looks os cute with her backpack...I should bring my homemade one to Japan and see what weirdo's I'll attract XD I'll get my hair cut like hers again ^-^" and add a hair band teehee

I hope they present the story in such a way that all the girl's get a good story chunk.