Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by GDB

Archer told them where she was. Lancer went and got her, so clearly his directions were good.

Oh, yeah, when he kidnapped her :3

[GDB]

Pretty sure he told them where in the Castle she was when they arrived too.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by GDB

Pretty sure he told them where in the Castle she was when they arrived too.

I honestly don't know if I'm correct on that. But I do remember him telling them. The writing on the screen to be more specific :3

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Well, no, she wasn't just standing there. You really don't understand how much things run through her head.

You know what I mean. Archer presumed that Saber would prioritise saving her master over watching them fight....

We already now why, and I doubt Saber knew where Rin was ANYWAY.

No, but nor did Lancer....

Originally Posted by Amarantine

Yeah, upon rereading the scene where Archer deals with Shinji and Gil, it's clear he did try to negotiate Rin's safety as best he could. But being Master-less and at like 10% of his full power at that point, trying to fight Gil would have been suicide so buying time was all he could manage.

Yeah, pretty much. If he truly didn't care, he could have just said "go ahead Shinji, I've even tied her up nicely for you". Archer is hardly the honourable type, so waiting just because he promised Shirou doesn't really fit.

He knew Shirou well enough to know that, if he'd given an ultimatum, he would turn up on time, and he also knew Saber would be with her when he did. Saber might not have been able to defeat Gil, but she certainly had more chance than Archer did.

As for Saber, to be fair that was probably because Nasu wanted to give her some manner of resolution in UBW as well, but since it couldn't happen through a romantic relationship with Shirou as UBW was Rin's route, he decided to have Saber find her answer through watching Shirou and Archer fight. But yes, that did make her look kinda bad as a supposedly loyal Servant, and it's a good thing Lancer was around to be a hero in her place.

Well, yes, that's OOCly why it happened. It just doesn't make Saber come across particularly well....

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

You know what I mean. Archer presumed that Saber would prioritise saving her master over watching them fight....



No, but nor did Lancer....



Yeah, pretty much. If he truly didn't care, he could have just said "go ahead Shinji, I've even tied her up nicely for you". Archer is hardly the honourable type, so waiting just because he promised Shirou doesn't really fit.

He knew Shirou well enough to know that, if he'd given an ultimatum, he would turn up on time, and he also knew Saber would be with her when he did. Saber might not have been able to defeat Gil, but she certainly had more chance than Archer did.



Well, yes, that's OOCly why it happened. It just doesn't make Saber come across particularly well....

No, it doesn't, but by then the reader would've watched Fate, and that problem would be solved at the end of UBW.

[Amarantine]

This is what Archer told them:

"I have left her [Rin] somewhere in this castle. You should hurry if you are worried about her. You were late, so I gave her to Matou Shinji, since he came earlier."

Then he added in order to make it apparent how urgent it was for them to go and find her:

"I kept my promise with you. I will not harm her. But it does not concern me what other people do to her. But, the result is pretty obvious. Matou Shinji feels hatred and lust towards Tohsaka Rin. One does not need to think what he will do to her. He might not be able to restrain himself if she provokes him, so he might be killing and raping her right now."

At which point Lancer said he'd go, plus:



So yeah, Archer didn't specify the exact location, but he made it pretty clear Rin was in a lot of danger and inside the castle, which a Servant shouldn't have any problem surveying fairly quickly. But alas, only Lancer was willing to go.

[mirakura]

See, why she wanted to watch, no idea...Probably Nasu's desperate way to get her story resolved in UBW.

[AvatarST]

Is there a reason why Rin couldn't use a command spell to summon Saber at that point? I forget. I figure she should have considering she was in serious danger.

I don't remember if they had taped her lips.

[TwilightsCall]

She probably could have, if she was super desperate - I don't think she was gagged. I could be wrong, though.

But she also only had 1 command spell left, so using it would have been very dangerous, considering it was obvious Saber was more loyal to Shirou than to her. Sure, I doubt Saber would have done anything to her, but that's a pretty dangerous gamble to take. Maybe not as dangerous as hoping someone comes to save her in time from Shinji, but...

It's also a very Rin-like thing to do, forgetting to use a command spell the one time she needed it to actually save her life.

[Lorhand]

She had two left. Rin used one on Saber on the final day to make her not touch the mud. Then she notes that she still has one Command Spell left.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

She had two left. Rin used one on Saber on the final day to make her not touch the mud. Then she notes that she still has one Command Spell left.

Wasn't there an issue with Rin having 4 Command Spells in UBW because Nasu made a mistake?

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Wasn't there an issue with Rin having 4 Command Spells in UBW because Nasu made a mistake?

Well, perhaps. Or Rin received the two remaining Command Spells from Caster, when she made her contract with Saber.

[TwilightsCall]

Now that you mention it....

1 on Archer immediately after he was summoned.
1 on Archer after he tried to kill Shirou and failed.
1 on Saber to make her not touch the mud.
1 left in stock.

.....??? Wow Rin is pretty slick.

And no, unless Rin somehow magically (lol) knew the spell to transfer command spells, she wouldn't be able to take them from Caster. Especially since Caster died before she ever had a chance to do so.

(I suspect what actually happened was Nasu forgot to take into account the Command Spell she used during the Prologue while he was writing UBW. That's just my speculation though.)

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

Now that you mention it....

1 on Archer immediately after he was summoned.
1 on Archer after he tried to kill Shirou and failed.
1 on Saber to make her not touch the mud.
1 left in stock.

.....??? Wow Rin is pretty slick.

And no, unless Rin somehow magically (lol) knew the spell to transfer command spells, she wouldn't be able to take them from Caster. Especially since Caster died before she ever had a chance to do so.

(I suspect what actually happened was Nasu forgot to take into account the Command Spell she used during the Prologue while he was writing UBW. That's just my speculation though.)

No, what I meant is that Rin lost her remaining Command Spell when she lost Archer. Caster had two Command Spells left for Saber, but these were given to Rin when Rin took control of Saber. There is no need for a Master stealing the Command Spells, when it's the Grail who distributes and redistributes them in the first place, if there are fewer Masters than Servants left. Kirei explains how it works in Fate/Zero.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

No, what I meant is that Rin lost her remaining Command Spell when she lost Archer. Caster had two Command Spells left for Saber, but these were given to Rin when Rin took control of Saber. There is no need for a Master stealing the Command Spells, when it's the Grail who distributes and redistributes them in the first place, if there are fewer Masters than Servants left. Kirei explains how it works in Fate/Zero.

I remember reading Nasu confirming he made a mistake or that it was something which needed to be fixed. I can't find a source to confirm it, so I could be miss remembering ti.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

I remember reading Nasu confirming he made a mistake or that it was something needing to be fixed. I can't find a source to confirm it, so I could be miss remembering ti.

Huh, then I really need a source for that. We'll see what ufotable will do.

Edit:

Q: This is a question about contracts with multiple Servants. Can Command Spells be used on any of the Servants? Hypothetically, if someone was bound to two Servants, would the magus be able to use four or more Command Spells?
A: Even when contracted with multiple Servants, a Master only receives three Command Spells (assuming none have been stolen from other Masters, etc.), so you can’t have four Command Spells for a single Servant or anything like that. Also, there’s nothing wrong with concentrating all Command Spells on a single Servant. The problems begin after all Command Spells have been used up.

Well, seems like it's just one line he messed up.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Well, seems like it's just one line he messed up.

Which line do you mean?

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Which line do you mean?

The "I still have one Command Spell left" line Rin thought at the end of UBW. Remove it and there are no more issues.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

The "I still have one Command Spell left" line Rin thought at the end of UBW. Remove it and there are no more issues.

Yeah, that would be an easy fix.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Is there a reason why Rin couldn't use a command spell to summon Saber at that point? I forget. I figure she should have considering she was in serious danger.

I don't remember if they had taped her lips.

I think you need to be able to move your hand to use a command spell (see the Rider scene with Shirou in UBW, for example). So, the way she was tied, she likely couldn't.

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

But she also only had 1 command spell left, so using it would have been very dangerous, considering it was obvious Saber was more loyal to Shirou than to her.

But, Shirou also happens to love her, and would absolutely not have been OK with Saber harming Rin in any way, shape or form. Plus, Saber made the contract with Rin of her own free will, and in order to help Shirou.

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Wasn't there an issue with Rin having 4 Command Spells in UBW because Nasu made a mistake?

I believe that, when a master makes a new contract, they regain all of their command spells. They don't, however, get three command spells per servant.