Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[morbosfist]

I'd imagine Mao was hardly the first, just one of the craziest.

[GundamFan0083]

That he was.

[azul120]

Lelouch pulled the ol' Break Her Heart to Save Her routine. He didn't want to take her down with him. He was resigned to ending his own life at that point, but wanted her to live on for him.

[FoxxFireArt]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

"Even though she is able to tell Lelouch, who assumed the seat of emperor, her decision of wanting to live and die alongside him, Lelouch rejects her. What he chose is Suzaku and C.C."

This is plot summary. It bears little relevance on how he actually felt for her. To "reject" her in this manner is simply to push her away. Doesn't mean he didn't feel anything for her. I don't feel like going much deeper than that, but taking that one line as a solid rejection is clearly taking it out of context.

Exactly, in the episode "Betrayal". Lelouch was trying to save her life from dying with him. He wasn't really rejecting her feelings. He was trying to get her out of the line of fire. He had to lie to save her. He had no idea Rolo was going to appear and save him. If Lelouch really had no feelings for her and actually 'rejected' her. Why did he whisper what he thought were going to be his last words to Kallen, "You must live on."? Why not say nothing and let her live hating him? It was more telling that his last words weren't anything about C.C., his mother, or Nunnally. It was something for only Kallen to hear. In the next episode he is even thinking how he can trust Kallen with caring for C.C. in her condition.

Look at the scene just prior to that. Lelouch at the time was in a deep depression over Nunnally's death. He was pushing everyone away and lashing out. Still, in the elevator Lelouch apologized to Kallen for not coming for her sooner. Lelouch never even apologized for killing Euphy, but he apologized to Kallen.

Lelouch was also the only one on the Ikaruga that panicked when Kallen was captured. His outburst caught everyone by surprise.

Then we have him as emperor. We now know what Zero's Requiem was all about. It was designed for him to make himself into the greatest villain of the world and die.
The whole time he was emperor, he was acting as if he was meeting everyone for the first time, but he was the one who asked Kallen to take the long way. Once they were alone he broke character for her. Yes, he didn't say anything after she kissed him, but Lelouch knew he couldn't. It's more telling how he said nothing. For some reason. Lelouch couldn't lie or say the truth. Once she walks away. He whispers a farewell to her.
It's as if he wanted to see her one last time before his death. Anyone who sided with Lelouch as emperor was going to be a villain, but all who opposed him were made into heroes.

I think there was some interesting information given in the scene just before their kiss. On the Ikaruga they were talking about if Kallen was Geassed again while she was alone with Lelouch. Zhou mentioned how Kallen had given her permission to shoot her if they suspected she was under control this time.
That means Kallen lied to them. She didn't tell them about her immunity to any further influence. It was pretty well confirmed in the Kallen character poem that she was willing to follow him. He had to push her away so she wouldn't suffer.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by FoxxFireArt

If Lelouch really had no feelings for her and actually 'rejected' her. Why did he whisper what he thought were going to be his last words to Kallen, "You must live on."?

Because romantic feelings or not, she was important to him?

Why not say nothing and let her live hating him?

Well, he tried that later.

It was more telling that his last words weren't anything about C.C., his mother, or Nunnally. It was something for only Kallen to hear.

Nunnally was "dead", his mother had been "dead" for a long time, and C.C. had left him in her own way. What was he supposed to say? "Here I am, talking to myself... Nunnally is dead, so it's not so bad that I get shot now."
That would have been kind of overdoing it.

This is fiction, and Lelouch's actual last words were for Suzaku, both the flashback and his thoughts at the moment (and aside from the "destroy worlds and create worlds" thing). By that logic, I might as well claim he was in love with him, so let's just keep the romance in the romance thread.

He was pushing everyone away and lashing out. Still, in the elevator Lelouch apologized to Kallen for not coming for her sooner. Lelouch never even apologized for killing Euphy, but he apologized to Kallen.

Lelouch never apologized for killing Euphie because it was a horrible, horrible thing and he wanted to take the blame. It's completely different.

Lelouch was also the only one on the Ikaruga that panicked when Kallen was captured. His outburst caught everyone by surprise.

You don't need to be madly in love with someone to panic when they are captured. No, really, there are people who care about their friends a great deal, and Lelouch is one of them.

I'm not saying Lelouch didn't have any romantic feelings for Kallen. However, the arguments you make don't convince me, and I don't think this discussion belongs here.

[rinichan]

Hello everyone, just wanna know if there is any new news about Code Geass gaiden? or pls redirect me there? The one with translations pls....

and yeah just wanna ask if this is authentic:

Spoiler for Is this info ever real???:

Posted on 2Channel, we've been able to gather information a new Code Geass project known as Code Geass Gaiden: Boukoku no Akito (Akito of the Ruined Nation) is in the works. What we know is it's set in atb 2017, seven years after the start of the original Code Geass series, likely 5-6 years after the end of Lelouch's story, and unfortunately the world peace that was supposed to ensue didn't. Europe is in the midst of a big war-- and a small squadron of folks from Area 11 are on a mission that has only a 5% likelihood of success. Not much else is known about this new Code Geass Project the reason it is believe to be an anime is the credits from trailer lists many people who primarily only work with animes. CLAMP will be back for character designs, as will Akira Yasuda for Knightmare Frames. And Ichirou Okouchi and Gorou Taniguchi, who came up with the original Code Geass story, will be back for this new piece. There are also some newcomers to the franchise: One Shigeru Morita, who did scripts for Mobile Suit Gundam Seed and a variety of episodes of Blood+ and Toward the Terra, will be on screenplay duty for the new Geass. And Kazuki Akane, whose directed works like Vision of Escaflowne and Noein, will helm the new series.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by FoxxFireArt

Lelouch never even apologized for killing Euphy, but he apologized to Kallen.

He lied about it to Suzaku, because he felt that apologizing would work against him at the time.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by FoxxFireArt

Exactly, in the episode "Betrayal". Lelouch was trying to save her life from dying with him. He wasn't really rejecting her feelings. He was trying to get her out of the line of fire. He had to lie to save her. He had no idea Rolo was going to appear and save him. If Lelouch really had no feelings for her and actually 'rejected' her. Why did he whisper what he thought were going to be his last words to Kallen, "You must live on."? Why not say nothing and let her live hating him? It was more telling that his last words weren't anything about C.C., his mother, or Nunnally. It was something for only Kallen to hear. In the next episode he is even thinking how he can trust Kallen with caring for C.C. in her condition.

Look at the scene just prior to that. Lelouch at the time was in a deep depression over Nunnally's death. He was pushing everyone away and lashing out. Still, in the elevator Lelouch apologized to Kallen for not coming for her sooner. Lelouch never even apologized for killing Euphy, but he apologized to Kallen.

Lelouch was also the only one on the Ikaruga that panicked when Kallen was captured. His outburst caught everyone by surprise.

Then we have him as emperor. We now know what Zero's Requiem was all about. It was designed for him to make himself into the greatest villain of the world and die.
The whole time he was emperor, he was acting as if he was meeting everyone for the first time, but he was the one who asked Kallen to take the long way. Once they were alone he broke character for her. Yes, he didn't say anything after she kissed him, but Lelouch knew he couldn't. It's more telling how he said nothing. For some reason. Lelouch couldn't lie or say the truth. Once she walks away. He whispers a farewell to her.
It's as if he wanted to see her one last time before his death. Anyone who sided with Lelouch as emperor was going to be a villain, but all who opposed him were made into heroes.

I think there was some interesting information given in the scene just before their kiss. On the Ikaruga they were talking about if Kallen was Geassed again while she was alone with Lelouch. Zhou mentioned how Kallen had given her permission to shoot her if they suspected she was under control this time.
That means Kallen lied to them. She didn't tell them about her immunity to any further influence. It was pretty well confirmed in the Kallen character poem that she was willing to follow him. He had to push her away so she wouldn't suffer.

You're fully free to feel that way FoxFireArt, but it's just as likely that after Shirley's death Lelouch didn't want any more of his friends to die because of him.

Remember Shirley would have followed Lelouch to the end also and it cost her her life and Lelouch knew it.
He didn't want that to happen to anyone else, not Suzaku, not CC, not Kallen, not even Rolo.

When Rolo sacrifices himself for Lelocuh, Lelouch pleads with him not to die for him.

Kallen was simply the last character Lelouch had to save and thus he rejects HER feelings and tells her to live her own life, but she never figures out how he felt and she even says so in her poem.

She says that "even if you don't love me I wouldn't believe it."
That means she never captured (or understood might be a better way to translate it) how he felt in his heart or what went through his mind.
But saying that he was "hiding his true feelings" is a Kalulu myth that has as much merit as Lelouch being the cart-driver in the end.

[Kittenlady]

I always assumed that Lelouch still loving C.C. even after he found out about his mother was the thing that really meant a lot to her. Love doesn't have to be romantic~ C.C. probably wanted some romance when she was younger, but I think she was just too old by the time Lulu rolled around.

Personally, I think by the end, the two people Lelouch cared about most after Nunnally were Suzaku and C.C. He was probably closer to them than anyone else, at least.

[SonOfHeaven]

People will have their own opinions regarding the matter. My take is Lelouch pushed Kallen away for her own good. Without letting her know his feelings(I could find the magazine article on this forum that had that officially but I won't waste my time on that. I felt that from the series itself). We the audience don't know how Lelouch felt about Kallen. Given how he was OOC with Kallen in turn 22. He obviously was hiding his intentions as well.

From her poem. The message I got was Kallen realized on her own how Lelouch was OOC because he wanted her to live(last stanza). Celiss's translation of the final two lines of Kallen's profile. Pretty much goes hand in hand about the living on part.

"After that, Kallen understood Lelouch's feelings, which he had entrusted to her, the moment Zero stabbed Lelouch in front of her eyes. It was but an small wish -- "I want you to live your own dreams"." Here's a picture http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4736/p1020481ux1.jpg

Just my take on it.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

I always assumed that Lelouch still loving C.C. even after he found out about his mother was the thing that really meant a lot to her. Love doesn't have to be romantic~ C.C. probably wanted some romance when she was younger, but I think she was just too old by the time Lulu rolled around.

Personally, I think by the end, the two people Lelouch cared about most after Nunnally were Suzaku and C.C. He was probably closer to them than anyone else, at least.

I agree with your opinion in part, though I believe Lelouch had romantic feelings for CC, but not only CC.

It's the only way he could actually fulfill her wish.

There were many indications of his affections for her throughout the series, not the least of which is how much he picks on her.
The first thing that jumped out at me when I watched Code Geass for the first time in English was how they act like a married couple.
There's a definite chemistry between them that is romantic in the Danielle Steel sort of way.
It's very mature and intellectual, but not sexual.

Having watched this series as much as I have I don't see Lelouch having only one love interest.
Which is why I maintain that CC was not the only woman Lelouch appeared to have romantic affections for IMHO.

I'll explain a bit more below and get to the general discussion about this rather than romance (which belongs on the Romance thread).

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

People will have their own opinions regarding the matter. My take is Lelouch pushed Kallen away for her own good. Without letting her know his feelings(I could find the magazine article on this forum that had that officially but I won't waste my time on that. I felt that from the series itself). We the audience don't know how Lelouch felt about Kallen. Given how he was OOC with Kallen in turn 22. He obviously was hiding his intentions as well.

From her poem. The message I got was Kallen realized on her own how Lelouch was OOC because he wanted her to live(last stanza). Celiss's translation of the final two lines of Kallen's profile. Pretty much goes hand in hand about the living on part.

"After that, Kallen understood Lelouch's feelings, which he had entrusted to her, the moment Zero stabbed Lelouch in front of her eyes. It was but an small wish -- "I want you to live your own dreams"." Here's a picture http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4736/p1020481ux1.jpg

Just my take on it.

Allow me to make this not about the Romance in Code Geass per se, but rather the lack of insight given in the R2 Guidebook.

I've read the Guidebook for the most part and I can tell all of you that it doesn't give any extra information on the characters or R2 episodes that you don't get from the anime.

In fact, the anime has far more information in it than the guidebook does.

There is definitely a sexual chemistry between Kallen and Lelouch, no doubt about it.
There's a tender love between Shirley and Lelouch without question.
And there's a mature, intense romantic Love between Lelouch and CC that is indisputable if you really watch the show.
Lelouch's love for Suzaku is only rivaled by his love for Nunnally (for my own sanity I choose to believe this is brotherly love or non-sexual Yaoi love/homoromantic).

Yet the "holy bible" of Code Geass, The R2 Guidebook, says that Lelouch only loved Nunnally and Euphemia, yet we see Lelouch behaving romantically to at least the three main female characters in the anime (and a few male characters actually).

The R2 Guidebook says CC was only an accomplace and Lelouch rejects Kallen.

However in the anime Lelouch tells CC that he will "be the one to grant her her wish," which is to have someone truly love her.

And, as FoxFireArt has pointed out, there was definitely chemistry between Kallen and Lelouch seen in the anime.

We see Lelouch kiss Shirley in the rain in the S1 ep when she learns her father has died. He goes to kiss her again in the episode "Love Attack" in the Library right before Anya crashes in with the Mordred. Lelouch then has an emotional meltdown while Shirley is dying later on in R2.
Yet the Guidebook fails to relate any of Lelouch's feelings in his description and glosses over Shirley so fast that's its basically worthless.

Thus the R2 Guidebook is not a good source of information for the romance of Code Geass as far as I'm concerned.

I take Kaguya's stance on this issue in that Zero has "many ladies."

[azul120]

I believe Lelouch would have been open to a relationship, but only after he was done fixing the world, as he knew it would be an occupational hazard. Shirley dying was something of a freak accident. And Kallen getting pushed away was because he had given up on life, and he didn't want to take her down with him.

[GundamFan0083]

I agree.
If he had lived he would certainly have been open to a relationship which is why I despise the Zero Requiem (as you know).

[SonOfHeaven]

I go by the anime first of all. Anything that gets released after I read it and form my own opinion. For example, Lelouch pushed Kallen away in the show and the guidebook has Lelouch wanting her to fulfill her dreams. Which I thought was obvious from the show in my opinion from how Lelouch was OOC in turn 22. Lelouch wanted to Kallen to live were both apparent in the show and stuff released after. Lelouch feelings for Kallen were left unknown and we don't know what it was which is a fact(Both turns 19 and 22 don't give you a complete answer in any case). Anyone can have their own opinion in regards to his feelings for Kallen and Shirley.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

I agree.
If he had lived he would certainly have been open to a relationship which is why I despise the Zero Requiem (as you know).

Ah yes, the Zero Requiem.

Which was caused by Lelouch losing all hope after Nunnally apparently bought it and the Black Knights turned on him, the latter of which might not have happened had Oghi and Villetta not butted in with their misinformation/persuasion.

Which makes it tempting to do a Revenge Fic on those two.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

I go by the anime first of all. Anything that gets released after I read it and form my own opinion. For example, Lelouch pushed Kallen away in the show and the guidebook has Lelouch wanting her to fulfill her dreams. Which I thought was obvious from the show in my opinion from how Lelouch was OOC in turn 22. Lelouch wanted to Kallen to live were both apparent in the show and stuff released after. Lelouch feelings for Kallen were left unknown and we don't know what it was which is a fact(Both turns 19 and 22 don't give you a complete answer in any case). Anyone can have their own opinion in regards to his feelings for Kallen and Shirley.

I would include CC in that as well.
Episode 15 of R2 more or less establishes concretely that he has romantic feelings for her, and thus the R2 Guidebook isn't a good source of info for this element of Code Geass.

My point in this discussion is that the R2 Guidebook sucks.

Celiss is an excellent translator, but she's also a Kalulu and has admitted to that.
Thus she has the proverbial "dog in the hunt" and tranlated it the way she wanted it to be.

LiangJiang and myself got the same translation independent of each other, although where she used the word "capture" I would have used "understood."
Which as you pointed out is certainly the case.
Kallen never understood Lelouch's mind or heart, that is clear by the anime.
We as the viewers on the other hand can see that Lelouch had at least a sexual interest in her.

What Lelouch's actual feelings are may never be made official unless Taniguichi or Okouchi come out and say "Yeah we meant for him to be a swinger" or "he was intended to be with [insert female character here]."

I got really depressed when all of you ladies and gents here started the shipping wars and I blame that damnable R2 Guidebook for much of it.
What we really needed was a "Romance Companion" for Code Geass so that we all could debate this in a more civil manner (if that's possible ).

Ah yes, the Zero Requiem.

Which was caused by Lelouch losing all hope after Nunnally apparently bought it and the Black Knights turned on him, the latter of which might not have happened had Oghi and Villetta not butted in with their misinformation/persuasion.

Which makes it tempting to do a Revenge Fic on those two.

Don't tempt me.

[SonOfHeaven]

Celiss translated many things for the community and just translates it as it is. I only linked the final two sentences of her profile which Celiss translated. Which also lijianliang pretty much had the same translation. So there was no this translating it the way she wanted it to be because she liked Kalulu nonsense.

Here's a link http://community.livejournal.com:80/...3030#t20343030

Repeating myself, most importantly I got that much just by the anime itself. Kallen's poem made this obvious even lijianliang came to that conclusion.

Regarding C.C, well I didn't see their relationship in a potential romantic light personally. Really won't elaborate on that. Though people see things differently.

Its pretty civil here btw.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

Celiss translated many things for the community and just translates it as it is. Besides I only linked the final two sentences of her profile which Celiss translated. Which also lijianliang pretty much had the same translation.

Here's a link http://community.livejournal.com:80/...3030#t20343030

Repeating myself, most importantly I got that much just by the anime itself.

Regarding C.C, well I didn't see their relationship in a potential romantic light personally. Really won't elaborate on that. Though people see things differently.

Its pretty civil here btw.

Indeed we do all interpret things differently, and that's what makes these discussions pleasant.
I like reading all the different opinions and why people feel the way they do.

And thank you very much for being civil.
I do appreciate it here now, it's much nicer than back in 08.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Don't tempt me.

I doubt you'd be the first anyways, hyuk hyuk hyuk.

Regarding Lelouch himself, I think one of his problems was that he was a failure at opening up to people. He would either lie or keep secrets, or just plain shoulder whatever burden, no matter how big or small, by himself. Almost the only person who was looking to change that was Shirley, and just as she was about to get a chance to do so, that's when It happened.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by azul120

I doubt you'd be the first anyways, hyuk hyuk hyuk.

Regarding Lelouch himself, I think one of his problems was that he was a failure at opening up to people. He would either lie or keep secrets, or just plain shoulder whatever burden, no matter how big or small, by himself. Almost the only person who was looking to change that was Shirley, and just as she was about to get a chance to do so, that's when It happened.

Hehehehe.

I'm sure there are fanfics about it already, gawd there seems to be one for every aspect of Code Geass.

We are in total agreement about Lelouch's lack of personal relationship skills.
It would have been nice if Okouchi had written it so Shirley caused him to open up more, but alas that was not how it went.
You know you're making me hate Rolo, and especially Villetta, even more.