Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood - Episode 54 Discussion/Poll

[zebra]

I actually agree about that, even so the good guy part comes from me. He's a mass murderer and it can't be forgiven that easily, but he himself knows that the best. He hasn't forgotten and would actually like to get punished and trialed for what he did. It's what he is working towards - a democracy where he will be nothing but a criminal. He was ordered to, but he executed the genocide.
His remorse doesn't make his actions better, but defines who he is now and is the cause of his ambition - not the other way around.

You also forget the main reason he went through with everything without backing down like Alex: He wanted to protect his fellow soldiers. To keep as many safe as he was able to. It's the concept he follows until the present day.

The when-does-someone-deserve-forgiveness matter is a very personal thing, so I can't argue against it, but one thing is clear: Roy hasn't forgiven himself and hasn't forgotten his crimes.

Compare him to Kimblee (and his rant about killing) who must have a similar body count. They contrast each other really well.

But anyway, my point was the revenge scene in 54, not the big picture. Mustang realized himself at the end of the rants of everyone that he wasn't doing the right thing and stops. Since there were a few who didn't like it Envy wasn't burnt (a final time ). Having done wrong in the past isn't a free ticket to do whatever you like in the present.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by zebra

Well, you don't have to like the message, but Arakawa delivered it clearly.

Exactly. This topic has left me kind of speechless because I had no ideia so many people actually let the fact that the characters' set of morals differ from their own ruin their enjoyment of a fictional story created for entertainment purposes.

Seriously? I mean I'm a misanthrope and FMA constantly sends the message that human beings are totally awesome creatures. Is that gonna ruin my enjoyment of it? No way, I love FMA because regardless of its themes and messages it is (almost) always incredibly entertaining and fun to read, which is what matters. Well at least to me.

And I never feel Arakawa is imposing those morals on the reader either. She's just sharing her own views which even if you disagree with, you can still respect.

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by zebra

You also forget the main reason he went through with everything without backing down like Alex: He wanted to protect his fellow soldiers. To keep as many safe as he was able to. It's the concept he follows until the present day.

And he does that by staying to massacre more innocent civilians? The logic, therefore, is that his men's lives have value but the Ishvalans' have none.... yeah, that doesn't really redeem him much......

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Exactly. This topic has left me kind of speechless because I had no ideia so many people actually let the fact that the characters' set of morals differ from their own ruin their enjoyment of a fictional story created for entertainment purposes.

Seriously? I mean I'm a misanthrope and FMA constantly sends the message that human beings are totally awesome creatures. Is that gonna ruin my enjoyment of it? No way, I love FMA because regardless of its themes and messages it is (almost) always incredibly entertaining and fun to read, which is what matters. Well at least to me.

And I never feel Arakawa is imposing those morals on the reader either. She's just sharing her own views which even if you disagree with, you can still respect.

I don't think anybody said they like the series any less because they disagree with the message. We're merely pointing out a criticism we have with the plot. That's all there is to it. Nobody's bashing Arakawa or the series. Despite everything I've said up to now about my thoughts on that, FMA is still in my top 5. As I said, it's possibly the only thing I take issue with in the series, but I don't watch it for the morals, but for the cool factor, as Kazu-kun stated.

[Jeffry2009]

I wonder what happens IF they make the alternate start like this:-

She holds Roy Mustang at gunpoint and then she shoots Mustang and she revealed that she was Envy-in-disguise. He get an evil grin then he shoots Mustang pretty badly while mocking Riza. And then real Riza arrives just in time for help. Shocked, only find out that Roy had been shot so badly and Riza rage against Envy occurs.

I hope this is right.

[GaimeGuy]

Originally Posted by Slave0fLife

He really was. But I didn't like the way they showed the punching sequence. The punches didn't seem that powerful to me.

Alex has a practically superhuman build, and iirc, his alchemyy isn't just about throwing projectile stones and stuff, but it's also used to magnify the power of his punches. So while he's strong enough to take on a bull/ox chimera on his own using just martial arts, and he has the endurance to take direct attacks from sloth, and he's quick footed enough to keep up with Scar,when he uses his alchemy, he can magnify the power of his attacks, whether they be projecticles or simple punches from his fists, to be artillery-level in strength (which is basically the only level of attack that hurts sloth).

His alchemy literally turns every punch of his into a tank shell. Think of him as like Basque Grand, but with hand to hand combat instead of weaponry.

[GaimeGuy]

Originally Posted by Grey

Actually, they were apparently really good at guerilla warfare, and were getting armaments from the country to the south. That's why riots eventually became a seven-year-long conflict that couldn't be stamped out. Rioting civilians became guerilla fighters. Not to mention those warrior priests who could take out ten regular soldiers (and apparently did so by getting in close and fighting hand-to-hand).

Yeah, and the conflict wasn't just in the annexed Ishvalan territory either, but rather, the whole eastern region (although the Ishval area was certainly the heart of the conflict). I remember Ed mentioned that Rizembool was burned to the ground during the war, and that the fields were ravaged. Just that his and the Rockbell homes were fine because they weren't really inside the town itself, but rather on the outskirts.

[Darklord_bg]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

There's no question that Roy has done indefensible things. There's also no doubt that he's felt remorse for them, but does remorse after an act of evil exonerate the perpetrator of moral responsibility? It seems to me that Mustang's primary drivers over the course of the series have been two - revenge and ambition. Neither of those are what I would call noble, though in his own mind he pursues them towards a noble end (avenging his friend, unifying the country and bringing peace).

That's way too harsh and extreme. You make it sound like Mustang only thinks his goal is noble while it actually isn't. You make it sound like ambition is a bad word - like he is actually doing what he is doing just to satisfy his personal thirst for power. He still hasn't forgiven himself for Ishval and I don't think he ever will, but what do you expect him to do - mope around forever because of guilt? (like what he did in the first anime). The best way to earn redemption is through action and without determination and ambition - there is no action.

I see him as a good guy who has done some bad things (OK, really bad things) but I think he's doing his best to take responsibility for his actions. I'm not saying that war criminals should be forgiven, but I feel like just labeling Mustang as a bad guy for what he did in Ishval is like butchering his character and completely disregarding what he did and is trying to do in the rest of the story.

[zebra]

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

And he does that by staying to massacre more innocent civilians? The logic, therefore, is that his men's lives have value but the Ishvalans' have none.... yeah, that doesn't really redeem him much......

If you have to apply black and white logic like that - yes. I do differ since it's way to simple regarding the whole context, but it's your opinion and interpretation so you can dislike the matter as much as you want . I won't stand in your way

And I have a similar take on it as Endless Twilight. I don't always like the way the characters behave, but as long as it stays in line with their morals it's fine and I even start feeling defendant of their point of view . Even if it isn't mine . Their actions make sense and I like their choices, because it's what produces the interesting story. It's the freedom of fiction.

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by Darklord_bg

That's way too harsh and extreme. You make it sound like Mustang only thinks his goal is noble while it actually isn't. You make it sound like ambition is a bad word - like he is actually doing what he is doing just to satisfy his personal thirst for power. He still hasn't forgiven himself for Ishval and I don't think he ever will, but what do you expect him to do - mope around forever because of guilt? (like what he did in the first anime). The best way to earn redemption is through action and without determination and ambition - there is no action.

The 'action' that Mustang is taking for supposedly noble purposes serves himself more than anyone else. He clearly hasn't done anything for the Ishvalans, nor does he seem to have plans to. Therefore, I don't see how he's earned any sort of redemption.

Originally Posted by Darklord_bg

I see him as a good guy who has done some bad things (OK, really bad things) but I think he's doing his best to take responsibility for his actions. I'm not saying that war criminals should be forgiven, but I feel like just labeling Mustang as a bad guy for what he did in Ishval is like butchering his character and completely disregarding what he did and is trying to do in the rest of the story.

War criminals are war criminals. Their personality doesn't matter, nor do their feelings afterward if it doesn't manifest itself as action and change. As stated, Mustang never did anything to help the Ishvalans during or after his crime. It's funny you look at it this way, actually, because I see it as the inverse: I don't think he should be labeled a good guy in disregard of what he did before just because of a few good deeds and intentions. I mean, let's be honest - in real life, we don't think of war criminals as good guys who did some bad things... they're condemned by the entire world and looked upon as scum (see the Nazis, Slobodan Milosevic, Pol Pot, etc.).

Originally Posted by zebra

If you have to apply black and white logic like that - yes. I do differ since it's way to simple regarding the whole context, but it's your opinion and interpretation so you can dislike the matter as much as you want . I won't stand in your way

Well, sure. After all, when people are dying, there aren't too many shades of gray you could look at. The best way to save as many lives as possible in that situation would be to get his whole unit to quit, thereby saving their lives and decreasing the number of people murdering Ishvalans. Basically, what it seems like is that instead of convincing his men to leave as well, he decided to stick around and pile up more bodies. The logic seems like 'Well, I think this is wrong, but since my friends are here, I'll stick around.' In other words, he continued doing an oppressive action because he didn't have the character to do the right thing and convince others to as well.

[Darklord_bg]

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

The 'action' that Mustang is taking for supposedly noble purposes serves himself more than anyone else. He clearly hasn't done anything for the Ishvalans, nor does he seem to have plans to. Therefore, I don't see how he's earned any sort of redemption.

I don't see anything to suggest that Mustang wants to lead the country because of a personal desire for power. Ever since his character was introduced the idea that he is doing everything to atone for what he did and to create a better government has been hammered down our throats. Those comedic bits displaying him enjoying being in command and making people "dance like puppets" shouldn't be taken as a serious defining trait of his character. Also, since he can't really go back in time and revive those Ishvalians (let's not get into the Human transmutation debate) the best thing he can do is take control of the country and make sure something like that never happens again. I believe he is helping the Ishvalians and everyone else this way - the best way he can.

War criminals are war criminals. Their personality doesn't matter, nor do their feelings afterward if it doesn't manifest itself as action and change. As stated, Mustang never did anything to help the Ishvalans during or after his crime. It's funny you look at it this way, actually, because I see it as the inverse: I don't think he should be labeled a good guy in disregard of what he did before just because of a few good deeds and intentions. I mean, let's be honest - in real life, we don't think of war criminals as good guys who did some bad things... they're condemned by the entire world and looked up as scum (see the Nazis, Slobodan Milosevic, Pol Pot, etc.).

Well...I can't really argue with that. You are right - in real life if someone murdered my people I wouldn't be able to forgive them no matter what good deeds they did later on. There are probably some Nazis who tried to atone for their crimes later on but that's not enough to be forgiven.

Nevertheless, I still can't see Mustang as a really bad guy simply because the anime chooses to focus much more on his good actions after the war. Even during the war, he never seemed to take pleasure in burning those people - he never seemed to have malicious intent. For me there is a clear difference between evil characters and evil deeds. Evil characters do evil deeds willingly. Good characters can still do evil deeds for whatever reason (under duress, orders, etc.) and that doesn't make those deeds any less evil but a person's overall character should take the bigger picture into account.

If the author wanted to establish Mustang as a bad character or mass murderer - she could simply have him keep killing people for pleasure like Kimblee or she could end his story after the Ishbal war and have him do nothing. Why go through all the trouble of showing him trying to atone if what he does after the war is meaningless? I guess what I'm trying to say is in real life he would clearly be a bad guy, but from a storyline perspective the author is clearly trying to establish him as a good character - someone doing their best to right the wrongs he made.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

The 'action' that Mustang is taking for supposedly noble purposes serves himself more than anyone else. He clearly hasn't done anything for the Ishvalans, nor does he seem to have plans to. Therefore, I don't see how he's earned any sort of redemption.

Come on, man... Are you even watching the same show as we are? As zebra mentioned previously, upon his elevation to power, he fully intends to install the kind of government whereby something like Ishbal would never happen again, and he and the other war criminals during Ishbal (Riza and Knox are mentioned...) will be facing a life behind bars, if not a death at the end of a rope. Riza mentions this during her convo with Ed in Chapter 62. It was a fairly large revelation, that I'm glad to see made it into the anime (Episode 30, towards the end). I suggest you read Chapter 61 as well, as it puts quite a bit of context on this discussion. People were so quick to mention Mustang incinerating the injured Ishbalan man in 61 in order to condemn him, but apparently didn't wish to let the rest of the chapter color their opinions.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

War criminals are war criminals. Their personality doesn't matter, nor do their feelings afterward if it doesn't manifest itself as action and change. As stated, Mustang never did anything to help the Ishvalans during or after his crime. It's funny you look at it this way, actually, because I see it as the inverse: I don't think he should be labeled a good guy in disregard of what he did before just because of a few good deeds and intentions. I mean, let's be honest - in real life, we don't think of war criminals as good guys who did some bad things... they're condemned by the entire world and looked upon as scum (see the Nazis, Slobodan Milosevic, Pol Pot, etc.).

Ah, so I guess "risking his life and those of his 'important subordinates' so his country never does it again" doesn't really count, huh...? That doesn't have anything to do with why Scar and other Ishbalans (they've make it even more obvious in the anime) are working together, huh? Like I said, he knows what awaits him should he succeed. He may not be able to bring back the Ishbalans he killed, but he can do his best to take as many sins as he can upon himself so that no one has to do the same later.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

Well, sure. After all, when people are dying, there aren't too many shades of gray you could look at. The best way to save as many lives as possible in that situation would be to get his whole unit to quit, thereby saving their lives and decreasing the number of people murdering Ishvalans. Basically, what it seems like is that instead of convincing his men to leave as well, he decided to stick around and pile up more bodies. The logic seems like 'Well, I think this is wrong, but since my friends are here, I'll stick around.' In other words, he continued doing an oppressive action because he didn't have the character to do the right thing and convince others to as well.

Well, maybe you aren't watching the same show as we are. Or at least not reading the manga (in fairness, Bones has left out a few things germaine to this discussion). He clearly works for a military that, in that time of war, would have had little problem with hunting down and killing him and his entire company, and wiping out the Ishbalans anyway in the meantime. Then we wouldn't have had him and his men around to strive to get rid of that military, and the Ishbalans that still died would have died by gunshots and bayonets instead of near instant incineration. That's a much better outcome...

[OkamiNoKaze]

Wow, what a powerful, episode, so full of emotion. and judging by this forum hotly debated as well. I was wondering how long it would take for Envy to bite Ed, those teeth looked wicked nasty, also interesting of note, philosopher stones aren't solid through and through, or maybe they just liquify from use from the inside out. And all that before the eyecatch, after it, even more moments of awesomeness, though here seemed to be a quality drop there for a few moments, between the eye catch, and when Sloth and Armstrong started fighting. The music they played during their fight was very cool, quite fitting, normally for me music is just there, so it's quite rare for me to comment on anything but opening and ending music. Izumi is back, next episode is going to be awesome too.

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by Darklord_bg

I don't see anything to suggest that Mustang wants to lead the country because of a personal desire for power. Ever since his character was introduced the idea that he is doing everything to atone for what he did and to create a better government has been hammered down our throats. Those comedic bits displaying him enjoying being in command and making people "dance like puppets" shouldn't be taken as a serious defining trait of his character. Also, since he can't really go back in time and revive those Ishvalians (let's not get into the Human transmutation debate) the best thing he can do is take control of the country and make sure something like that never happens again. I believe he is helping the Ishvalians and everyone else this way - the best way he can.

Oh, I didn't say that he wants to lead the country for selfish purposes. It is indeed stated that he intends to make sure that Ishval never happens again. But that doesn't really help the Ishvalans now. And what I said was that it serves him more than anyone else, which is actually true.

Originally Posted by Darklord_bg

Well...I can't really argue with that. You are right - in real life if someone murdered my people I wouldn't be able to forgive them no matter what good deeds they did later on. There are probably some Nazis who tried to atone for their crimes later on but that's not enough to be forgiven.

Nevertheless, I still can't see Mustang as a really bad guy simply because the anime chooses to focus much more on his good actions after the war. Even during the war, he never seemed to take pleasure in burning those people - he never seemed to have malicious intent. For me there is a clear difference between evil characters and evil deeds. Evil characters do evil deeds willingly. Good characters can still do evil deeds for whatever reason (under duress, orders, etc.) and that doesn't make those deeds any less evil but a person's overall character should take the bigger picture into account.

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from, and it makes plenty of sense. I don't think you're wrong either - I just view it the series slightly differently, and I think Arakawa wrote her manga with that in mind.

Originally Posted by Darklord_bg

If the author wanted to establish Mustang as a bad character or mass murderer - she could simply have him keep killing people for pleasure like Kimblee or she could end his story after the Ishbal war and have him do nothing. Why go through all the trouble of showing him trying to atone if what he does after the war is meaningless? I guess what I'm trying to say is in real life he would clearly be a bad guy, but from a storyline perspective the author is clearly trying to establish him as a good character - someone doing their best to right the wrongs he made.

Sure, makes sense entirely. I think that is indeed what Arakawa intended; I think he is SUPPOSED to be a good guy. But personally, I have a really hard time forgiving murderers and war criminals, regardless how nice of guys they turn out to be. His character and his actions are two separate things as I see them, and one overwhelms the other.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Come on, man... Are you even watching the same show as we are? As zebra mentioned previously, upon his elevation to power, he fully intends to install the kind of government whereby something like Ishbal would never happen again, and he and the other war criminals during Ishbal (Riza and Knox are mentioned...) will be facing a life behind bars, if not a death at the end of a rope. Riza mentions this during her convo with Ed in Chapter 62. It was a fairly large revelation, that I'm glad to see made it into the anime (Episode 30, towards the end). I suggest you read Chapter 61 as well, as it puts quite a bit of context on this discussion. People were so quick to mention Mustang incinerating the injured Ishbalan man in 61 in order to condemn him, but apparently didn't wish to let the rest of the chapter color their opinions.

Yeah, I read that. I never said that Mustang didn't show remorse. I acknowledged his guilt and remorse, but that doesn't make his sins disappear. And as I mentioned in my reply to Darklord_bg, I never forgive murderers and war criminals, even in fiction. And it's not like Mustang was watched 100% of the time he was fighting the war. He could have let Ishvalans go when nobody was looking, but he burned them alive regardless of where he was, so he has no excuse in my book.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Ah, so I guess "risking his life and those of his 'important subordinates' so his country never does it again" doesn't really count, huh...? That doesn't have anything to do with why Scar and other Ishbalans (they've make it even more obvious in the anime) are working together, huh? Like I said, he knows what awaits him should he succeed. He may not be able to bring back the Ishbalans he killed, but he can do his best to take as many sins as he can upon himself so that no one has to do the same later.

No, I don't think that counts. That doesn't right the wrong. That just pre-empts future wrongs. That's like saying that the United States has helped the Native Americans. After slaughtering them all, they stopped so that it never happens again; but the survivors are still oppressed in concentration camps called reservations and ridiculed daily. They didn't really fix anything for the survivors, and Mustang, as of now, is the same.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Well, maybe you aren't watching the same show as we are. Or at least not reading the manga (in fairness, Bones has left out a few things germaine to this discussion). He clearly works for a military that, in that time of war, would have had little problem with hunting down and killing him and his entire company, and wiping out the Ishbalans anyway in the meantime. Then we wouldn't have had him and his men around to strive to get rid of that military, and the Ishbalans that still died would have died by gunshots and bayonets instead of near instant incineration. That's a much better outcome...

Actually, I do read the manga. I don't think that just because I view it differently than you, it means that I am not watching/reading o.O;

But in response to this, like they hunted down Alex, right? They could have all faked to have lost it and been sent home. The fact that they didn't do everything they could to get away from those killing fields makes me give them no excuse.

[Guardian Enzo]

I hate to say it, but every dictator from Senator Palpatine down through Caesar and Hitler said they wanted to rise to power to restore democracy and peace. They knew better - trust them. I don't put Mustang in that category, but I certainly don't think you can attach any nobility to what amounts to a campaign for personal power. As I said, I have no doubt that in his own mind Mustang wants to take over the country because he thinks the country needs him. We've also seen that he's a man who commited atrocities without ever truly condemning them, allowed his anger to make him blind with hatred and a desire to cause as much pain to his enemies as possible, and kidnap an innocent woman as part of a political plot. All in the cause of good, of course - trust him.

I'm not saying Mustang is the moral equivelant of the homonculi, or Kimblee. But I just don't see any way I can think of him as good. If anything, he's a necessary evil - a guy who's taken it on himself to do the dirty work, sometimes for good ends and sometimes not. He's loyal, corageous and smart - but hasn't shown that he can truly differentiate right from wrong when the chips are down. The ends don't always justify the means, and I can't accept the goodness of a man who believes they do.

That's a fundamental conflict here - Ed and especially Al have learned the hard way the wrongness of that belief, and they've tried to live their lives on a path directed by doing the right thing rather than the expedient thing. Think about it - Al continues to inhabit a suit of armor rather than attempt to restore himself using a philosopher's stone. Surely the restoration of his body is a good end, isn't it? Yet, they choose to pursue a much harder path. This is the core of the story - equivelant exchange doesn't just exist in alchemy, it exists in life. For Mustang, living the life of "achieve the ends at all costs" has demanded an equivelant exchange - the taint on his soul that can never be cleansed.

[dahak]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

On a less serious note that was some great gun battling by Hawkeye . Guns may not kill much in this universe anymore, but she has got skills. Great how she tricks Envy and then just head shots him.

I wouldn't say guns don't kill much anymore, it is just things need killing repeatedly. She has to have worn down his supply of lives significantly there.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I'm not saying Mustang is the moral equivelant of the homonculi, or Kimblee. But I just don't see any way I can think of him as good. If anything, he's a necessary evil - a guy who's taken it on himself to do the dirty work, sometimes for good ends and sometimes not. He's loyal, corageous and smart - but hasn't shown that he can truly differentiate right from wrong when the chips are down. The ends don't always justify the means, and I can't accept the goodness of a man who believes they do.

You are forgetting one thing about Roy. Yes he is fighting to fix the country in the way he thinks it should be but he has no intention of ruling that country. Riza hinted to Ed that in the country Roy is trying to create he would be considered a War Criminal and possibly executed for his crimes. And I believe Roy accepts this and even thinks it is right.

Now while I don't think that will actually end up happening (since Arakawa's story also rejects sacrifice as the answer) I don't think you can link Roy to a dictator. He doesn't think he is the best or only person to rule the country. He is just trying to change the country and he feels he can't do that if he is not at the top. Once he is at top however I am not sure if he has any intention of staying there.

Also with the Envy thing yes Roy was wrong to go after personal revenge but he did come to eventually realize this with the help of his friends. He's not perfect but I do feel he is generally a good person. What Roy demonstrates to me is that things are not black and white & even a good person can do bad things & make mistakes (the Ishval war).

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

But in response to this, like they hunted down Alex, right? They could have all faked to have lost it and been sent home. The fact that they didn't do everything they could to get away from those killing fields makes me give them no excuse.

Armstrong wasn't hunted down but he was pretty much stuck at the position of a Major never to be promoted. His military career basically came to a standstill after Ishval.

Roy realized that in order to get to the top of the country and change the country he couldn't just run away like Armstrong did. And running away would not have stopped what happened during the Ishval war.

[zebra]

Originally Posted by Jeffry2009

I wonder what happens IF they make the alternate start like this:-

She holds Roy Mustang at gunpoint and then she shoots Mustang and she revealed that she was Envy-in-disguise. He get an evil grin then he shoots Mustang pretty badly while mocking Riza. And then real Riza arrives just in time for help. Shocked, only find out that Roy had been shot so badly and Riza rage against Envy occurs.

I hope this is right.

Another alternative if you like (repost from the image thread):

Spoiler for picture:

.. is it strange I'm already checking for the next episode? XD Wanna see Izumi rockin'

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

You are forgetting one thing about Roy. Yes he is fighting to fix the country in the way he thinks it should be but he has no intention of ruling that country. Riza hinted to Ed that in the country Roy is trying to create he would be considered a War Criminal and possibly executed for his crimes. Now while I don't think that will actually end up happening, I don't think you can link Roy to a dictator. He doesn't think he is the best or only person to rule the country. He is just trying to change the country and he feels he can't do that if he is not at the top. Once he is at top however I am not sure if he has any intention of staying there.

Respectfully, I certainly haven't forgotten. I understand your point, but as a student of history I can't help but see the irony of it. "I don't want power for myself - once my new country is established, I will gladly hand over power to another." But somehow, though that line has been used countless times, it usually doesn't work that way. The thought process is easy enough to imagine - "Hmmm. There doesn't seem to be anyone else to unite the country. No one else can rule it as effectively, and do as much good, as I can. The people have rallied around me, the hero of the revolution - who else can they unite behind? Maybe I'll accept power - just for a little while, until I can groom someone else to replace me. It's what the people want, after all. And I'll only use that power for good..."

There aren't a lot of people in this series who aren't tainted in some way - Ed and even Al are tainted by their knowing participation in a forbidden act of alchemy (though I might argue that their age mitigates their sin). Scar, for God's sake, is certainly tainted. Yet though clearly Scar has commited many horrendous acts at least he has, in many ways, accepted and begun to atone for his sins much more than Mustang has. Roy is living in denial - using his quest to remake the country as a way to deflect the past. In terms of forgiveness, Scar again provides a good illustration - both in terms of himself and others. He abandoned his path of revenge when it became clear that it would lead the world to a bad end, and joined forces with the ones who ravished his country. And Scar was forgiven by Ed, Al and even Winry - whose parents he killed - because it was clear that it was the act of forgiveness, not revenge, that offers a hopeful path both for themselves and the world.

In a sense this could be portrayed as a battle of altrusim vs. practicality, though I think that's too simple a view. My biggest gripe with Roy in the end, other than his ruthlessness, is that he's a hyprocrite. He seeks to judge others ("Sentence: Death!") while escaping judgment himself. I admire him in many ways - his fierce loyalty, his cunning, his resilience in the face of much despair. But I'm disgusted by him too - when he was torching Envy it wasn't just the act of a wounded friend - he was clearly enjoying it. So you'll forgive me if I'm suspicious of the piety of his motives as he brutally eliminates rivals and gathers power to himself. And my skepticism of the idea that, once he has that power, he'll willingly surrender it to others and allow himself to be judged for his sins. That's the sort of promise that usually doesn't get kept, if history is any judge.

[Kirarakim]

But again with Envy, Roy came to the realization he was wrong. Yes he needed help from Riza, Ed, and Scar to come to this realization but as Ed said humans are weak but they don't give up and when they fall down their friends pick them up again. This is what happened with Roy. He was headed down the wrong path, but Ed, Scar and Riza got him back on the right path. He made a mistake. He is only human after all. So yes I agree that Roy is flawed but that doesn't mean I see him as a bad person. And in fact it is the same with Scar. He did some horrible things and he should have to pay for them but I do think he is generally a good man who let his rage consume him. If Scar was not a good man he would not be working with the Amestrians now.

As for whether Roy will end up ruling the country or not despite his intentions, we don't know yet what will happen. So I don't think we should judge Roy for something that has not happened yet. His intention was just not to rule but to sacrifice himself since he knew the new world he is trying to create will see him as a war criminal. In the end circumstances might lead him to rule, he might end up executed like he believes, or in my opinion something else entirely will happen (but we just don't know yet).


Also in comparison to Al getting his body back what Al is trying to do is selfish. Now when I say selfish I don't mean bad. Al getting his body back is obviously a good thing, but Al comes to the realization that fighting for the country is more important at the moment and his selfish desires have to wait. Roy's desire to change the country in my opinion was never selfish even if you think how he went about it was not always right (his quest for revenge however was selfish but this is depicted as wrong in the story too).

[Slave0fLife]

I have got to say, I think this is a very entertaining discussion.

Reading the posts, I was wondering what peoples ideas on Kenshin Himura, from the Rurouni Kenshin story, in comparison to Roy. Would making a comparison be off-topic?
Kenshin also slaughtered many people, for the sake of a new Era, and later on kept living. In the Enishi parts, he says that, although he has wronged many times, he can't die yet since he can do good to others; his life is not his anymore, and untill he is unable to make people smile anymore, he will still fight against death and for others.