The Syria Crisis

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by Haak

Well if there's already an insurgency, then yeah you've obviously fucked up in some extraordinary way and don't deserve to be there.

But time has a way of mollifying anger itself, so cutting off support from the counterinsurgency and it will eventually die on it's own, especially if you're clearly more capable of producing better governance than the insurgency. But that's only if you're in it for the long haul and don't keep screwing up along the way. And if you're doing it right, then those who have lost kin to your war won't be as much compared to those that prefer you over those that have lost kin to your war.

But still, I just don't think going out Genghis Khan should really be an option in the 21st century any more.

Insurgency will exist the second you march into someone else's country.

As for mollifying anger, well, U.S poured billion into Iraq and Afghanistan, and look how that turned out. For every hospital/road/factory you built, a errant missile, IED, or gunfire will undo that good will.

The only time in the 20th century something like this worked out was occupation of Germany and Japan, and both nation pretty much only did so after their fighting chances were completely gone (and their gov were crap).

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

By the time you reach counterinsurgency level, it means the game is fucked up so badly no way in hell the local is going to forgave you unless you get out, or go Gengis Khan.

Building a bridge or hospital isn't going to mollify those who lost kins to your war.

Wait, am I agreeing with sumeragi? o_O

that is why i disagree with the US going to war these days, they are too half-in/half-out. If you are going to war, either go in with the will flatten everything into the ground or don't bother to go.

[TooPurePureBoy]

that is why i disagree with the US going to war these days, they are too half-in/half-out. If you are going to war, either go in with the will flatten everything into the ground or don't bother to go.

Yes I once heard someone say (a comedian I think so take it with a grain of salt) but "I think the best way for america to behave in our current civilization would be to mind our business and take better care of our own issues. If someone decides to attack us and it can be tied back to a nation and not some extremist group, we should respond with a barbaric level of force. As in the fullest extent of our might."

Not sure how rational that is after typing it out but it sounded good at the time.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

that is why i disagree with the US going to war these days, they are too half-in/half-out. If you are going to war, either go in with the will flatten everything into the ground or don't bother to go.

I can't really tell if going either way would work in the 21th century, especially for the US.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

that is why i disagree with the US going to war these days, they are too half-in/half-out. If you are going to war, either go in with the will flatten everything into the ground or don't bother to go.

As long as Human Rights and UN exist...... not gonna happen...

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Wait, am I agreeing with sumeragi? o_O

Hell has frozen over and the heavens is on fire

[Badkarma 1]

Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy

My jaw hit the fucking floor.

Are we fucking mercenaries now?


Hold on to your hats folks. I'm calling it now. This is going to be one weird ass century.

And you are almost right. Fucked up would be better. And too your first question about us bein mercs, yeah pretty much!

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

that is why i disagree with the US going to war these days, they are too half-in/half-out. If you are going to war, either go in with the will flatten everything into the ground or don't bother to go.

As much as I agree with you, the member below nailed it!

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

As long as Human Rights and UN exist...... not gonna happen...

And it's not so much the UN as it us trying to portray the good guy, the calvary coming to the rescue, the guys in the white hats and all that. Plus CNN is there giving you up too the minute coverage. You screw up and blow up some "non-combatants" it's news, you hand out candy to the kids, its news. You hand out candy and suddenly the building behind you goes up, insurgents start raining down RPG and PKM fire, and your unit responds, you get Wolf Blitzer up your keister!
So as much as some of us would like to turn places into parking lots via a nuke, we can't do that. We're the GOOD GUYS.
Dale

[Endless Soul]

Putin regarding Kerry's so-called knowledge of the presence of Al-Quaeda in Syria: "Kerry lies left, right, and center."

Endless "Yep, politicians" Soul

[ganbaru]

China urges U.N. role on Syria after U.S. gives up
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9850BY20130906

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Endless Soul

Putin regarding Kerry's so-called knowledge of the presence of Al-Quaeda in Syria: "Kerry lies left, right, and center."

Endless "Yep, politicians" Soul

Except of course that what Kerry actually said is : "In testimony Wednesday, Kerry said he didn't agree that 'a majority (of the opposition) are al-Qaeda and the bad guys.' Extremists amount to 15 to 25% of the opposition, he said, including al-Nusra and many other groups that are 'fighting each other, even now."
Which is the simple truth.
An healthy skepticism is probably a good idea when you listen an US official says anything but to take what Putin says as face value in reaction is worse.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Insurgency will exist the second you march into someone else's country.

Well that depends upon a range of factors but whilst it's mostly true, the degree of insurgency will vary considerably which is what will matter. If the insurgency is only in it's infancy then it can be effectively choked.

As for mollifying anger, well, U.S poured billion into Iraq and Afghanistan, and look how that turned out. For every hospital/road/factory you built, a errant missile, IED, or gunfire will undo that good will.

Well yeah, that's why the whole point is that you're building more than you're fighting. Unfortunately the US didn't quite get the memo until 2006-07 where they stopped being counter-productive. That's when they actually started to employ proper counter-insurgency methods, and at that point it was a bit of a lost cause anyway.

The French were lucky in that their campaign in Mali was overwhelmingly popular to begin with so they didn't have to worry much about winning the people over.

[AnimeFan188]

Russia Sends Warship With 'Special Cargo' To Syria:

"A Russian warship carrying "special cargo" will be dispatched toward Syria, a navy
source said on Friday, as the Kremlin beefs up its presence in the region ahead of
possible US strikes against the Damascus regime."

See:

http://www.businessinsider.com/russi...o-syria-2013-9


===============================================


Pentagon Is Ordered to Expand Potential Targets in Syria With a Focus on Forces:
"President Obama has directed the Pentagon to develop an expanded list of potential
targets in Syria in response to intelligence suggesting that the government of President
Bashar al-Assad has been moving troops and equipment used to employ chemical
weapons while Congress debates whether to authorize military action.

Mr. Obama, officials said, is now determined to put more emphasis on the “degrade”
part of what the administration has said is the goal of a military strike against Syria —
to “deter and degrade” Mr. Assad’s ability to use chemical weapons. That means
expanding beyond the 50 or so major sites that were part of the original target list
developed with French forces before Mr. Obama delayed action on Saturday to seek
Congressional approval of his plan."

See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/wo...anted=all&_r=0


==================================================


In the meanwhile in Syria Assad’s Mig-21 fighter jets are downed by rebel anti-aircraft fire:

"While U.S. and Russian warships and planes are amassing in the Mediterranean Sea, the Syrian
regime is still attacking Free Syrian Army positions across the country.

And rebels are shooting back with some good results.

The image in this post shows a Syrian Arab Air Force (SyAAF) Mig-21 hit by anti-aircraft fire. The
aircraft reportedly crashed and the fate of the pilot is unknown."



See:

http://theaviationist.com/2013/09/06/mig-downed-syria/

[ganbaru]

Obama plans 'full-court press' to sway Congress on Syria
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9850VK20130907

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by AnimeFan188

Russia Sends Warship With 'Special Cargo' To Syria:

"A Russian warship carrying "special cargo" will be dispatched toward Syria, a navy
source said on Friday, as the Kremlin beefs up its presence in the region ahead of
possible US strikes against the Damascus regime."

See:

http://www.businessinsider.com/russi...o-syria-2013-9

I am willing to put money on the table that those are advanced SAMs or anti-missile systems.

Raytheon is going to get shortsold if more than 1 is shot down.

[Seitsuki]

To be fair, Russia's probably been looking for payback ever since all that crap America shipped to Afghanistan.

[Ridwan]

Syrian and Middle Eastern Christians Condemn US Strike Plans

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

To be fair, Russia's probably been looking for payback ever since all that crap America shipped to Afghanistan.

Don't get started on that. They go a loooonnnnnnggggg way back; most of our members here in their 40s would understand.

[konart]

Originally Posted by AnimeFan188

In the meanwhile in Syria Assad’s Mig-21 fighter jets are downed by rebel anti-aircraft fire:

"While U.S. and Russian warships and planes are amassing in the Mediterranean Sea, the Syrian
regime is still attacking Free Syrian Army positions across the country.

And rebels are shooting back with some good results.

The image in this post shows a Syrian Arab Air Force (SyAAF) Mig-21 hit by anti-aircraft fire. The
aircraft reportedly crashed and the fate of the pilot is unknown."



See:

http://theaviationist.com/2013/09/06/mig-downed-syria/

It' pretty rare sight actually.

Most of the time it's like this:

YouTube

https://youtu.be/mOYew1IA-Ag

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by konart

It' pretty rare sight actually.

Most of the time it's like this:

<snip>

It is a Mig21. Vintage fighter.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Except of course that what Kerry actually said is : "In testimony Wednesday, Kerry said he didn't agree that 'a majority (of the opposition) are al-Qaeda and the bad guys.' Extremists amount to 15 to 25% of the opposition, he said, including al-Nusra and many other groups that are 'fighting each other, even now."
Which is the simple truth.

The truth, according to whom? I don't ask because I disagree, but because I don't think it's really clear what's going on over there. As far as I can see it, we have two groups of people who dislike us, one of whom is asking us and whoever else they can to get involved and help their side.

Liking us doesn't need to be a prerequisite for getting involved, but I don't see any other compelling reason to do so. Sarin gas was used - I accept the evidence, but who used it? Everyone is assuming it was Assad, but what if the rebels got hold of some and used it in order to bring the US (which already has an obvious bias against Assad) into the fray?

It's a terrible situation that is going on over there, but unless we want to threaten to bomb anyone who fires a gun regardless of what side they're on (and then make good on those threats), we can't stop the fighting and bring stability. Aside from raising the stakes by bringing in even more destructive weaponry (which Russia might then counter), what good does our involvement accomplish? If we want to help then we should be offering medical aid, food and shelter supplies, and transportation for civilians who wish to flee the region. Adding some explosions of our own won't accomplish much.