Saenai Heroine no Sodatekata/How to Train the Ordinary Girl to be a Heroine [LN]

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by orange2501

Volume 8's hill scene is the climax of the story and indicates that Tomoya and Megumi have gotten much closer. Going back to the status quo right after that just makes the scene feel pointless. But that's not the main problem here, the biggest problem is that they don't give a good reason for why Eriri's key visual made them drop the first name basis so the whole thing feels unnatural. I don't think it's such a small thing at all considering how Eriri, Megumi, and Tomoya's conflict is the main part of the story now.

Then you're not reading it well because isn't the climax, it was vol.7 as a turning point of the story and vol.8 was the aftereffects on full display.

It's as if you're basing it on a resume or something.

Originally Posted by Izumo

So basically Maruto is extending the forced drama once again right?

Not at all, there are many looses end to be tied up.

[orange2501]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

Then you're not reading it well because isn't the climax, it was vol.7 as a turning point of the story and vol.8 was the aftereffects on full display.

It's as if you're basing it on a resume or something.

Well, by story, I meant volume 8's story, not the story in general.

[Izumo]

Looking at volume 9, I can't stop feeling this is the same thing of volume 4 again.

What is nice is to see how Eriri isn't acting like she did before, pushing things to the point she can't even fix her own mess anymore, now we see a different side of her being more careful with her feelings and showing them in a proper way. On the other hand we have Megumi acting like always but slightly different, like she is aware of certain feeling growing inside her, maybe is just my interpretation.

What pisses me off is how Maruto keeps the same attitude on Tomoya, being a worthless piece of shit as MC who diverts the feelings of the girls using his stupid Otaku way of thinking, too focused in his work to the point he can't even pay attention to the damage he's doing... seriously, it's time to stop this bullshit.

On a side note, the lack of Utaha is noticeable so I expect more of her in the next volume. Overall isn't the worst volume but isn't the best either.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by orange2501

Volume 8's hill scene is the climax of the story and indicates that Tomoya and Megumi have gotten much closer. Going back to the status quo right after that just makes the scene feel pointless. But that's not the main problem here, the biggest problem is that they don't give a good reason for why Eriri's key visual made them drop the first name basis so the whole thing feels unnatural. I don't think it's such a small thing at all considering how Eriri, Megumi, and Tomoya's conflict is the main part of the story now.

What? No, not even close.

Megumi was trying her best to make that hill scene special and romantic like Tomoya always wanted. It was a special occasion for their date. Obviously that doesn't change how she or Tomoya normally act.

[orange2501]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

What? No, not even close.

Megumi was trying her best to make that hill scene special and romantic like Tomoya always wanted. It was a special occasion for their date. Obviously that doesn't change how she or Tomoya normally act.

Well, yeah, there's that, but the first name basis is the whole payoff for that scene and, well, the whole volume, for that matter. It's supposed to show how close they've gotten. It wouldn't be so irritating if they hadn't reverted to the status quo for a reason that isn't quite clear. Shouldn't she be getting closer to Tomoya instead because he's her friend and trying to get them to make up? What does Eriri's key visual have to do with how they refer to each other?

[Shadow5YA]

Again, no.

They weren't any closer. Megumi was just being nice for the occasion. You keep repeating the first-name calling as if it was something that had become the norm for them, but it never was. That was a spur of the moment deal.

They also already made up in volume 7. Volume 8 was more about the hurdles their new group had to overcome without Eriri and Utaha on their side, and getting Iori to accept their efforts.

The big issue with the story that Tomoya found was that the side heroines were overshadowing the main heroine. To fix that, Tomoya decided to gather materials for the main heroine by going on a date with Megumi. There was nothing romantic about the date until near the end.

[orange2501]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

They weren't any closer. Megumi was just being nice for the occasion. You keep repeating the first-name calling as if it was something that had become the norm for them, but it never was. That was a spur of the moment deal.

What? It was definitely not a spur of the moment, they continued the first name basis for at least a few days, it became a sort of habit and Tomoya had to put in effort not to use Megumi's first name while web-chatting with Eriri.

[Shadow5YA]

The fact that he didn't use Megumi's first name in front of Eriri shows that he still isn't all that close to Katou to begin with. He only started because Megumi started doing it first, and Megumi only did it as a treat for Tomoya for the "anniversary" of their encounter, to show that she is interested.

However, when it came down to it, Megumi was very much aware that she was still an outsider compared to Eriri who had known Tomoya for much longer. The key visual only helped Megumi understand that she still couldn't compare to her at all.

The entire volume makes it a big point that while the side heroines are slowly developing, the main heroine is at a standstill and losing her place as the main heroine. Megumi might have tried to close the distance with their date, but realistically one special moment isn't going to trump a plethora of experience Tomoya had with the other girls.

[orange2501]

Well, by volume 9 it's implied he's let it slip often enough that even Eriri knows that they were on a first name basis by her offhand comment of "Today is "Katou", huh." I just don't really get what's going on by those three. The first name basis shouldn't even be a big deal in the first place because Megumi used Eriri's first name in volume 4 when their development is nothing compared to hers with Tomoya, but it has a ridiculous amount of focus these past two volumes. Personally, I feel it sometimes takes away from some scenes, the sandwich scene at the end of 9 probably would have been better if they didn't need to remind us they're on a first name basis again.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

However, when it came down to it, Megumi was very much aware that she was still an outsider compared to Eriri who had known Tomoya for much longer. The key visual only helped Megumi understand that she still couldn't compare to her at all.

The key visual was all on Akane, I don't see what Tomoya has to do with it. If Tomoya's perspective of Eriri and Megumi's friendship is to be believed, then what Megumi really regrets is that she couldn't be good enough of a friend, the type where you could talk about anything to. No real room for Tomoya there.

The entire volume makes it a big point that while the side heroines are slowly developing, the main heroine is at a standstill and losing her place as the main heroine. Megumi might have tried to close the distance with their date, but realistically one special moment isn't going to trump a plethora of experience Tomoya had with the other girls.

At this point, Utaha, Michiru, and Izumi are mostly comic relief characters and their development with Tomoya is at a dead end. Yeah, that thing about the side heroines developing more might be true for volumes 1-7, but we're at 9 at this point and it's supposed to be a new beginning. In fact, 9 goes the opposite direction that 8 shows and instead of focusing on the main heroine, splits screentime across all of them and now you can't tell who's the focus.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by orange2501

The key visual was all on Akane, I don't see what Tomoya has to do with it. If Tomoya's perspective of Eriri and Megumi's friendship is to be believed, then what Megumi really regrets is that she couldn't be good enough of a friend, the type where you could talk about anything to. No real room for Tomoya there.

Megumi also regrets going off on Eriri when she did, because according to the Girls' Side story, that's when Eriri believed they were no longer friends. And during that short talk, Megumi more or less declared a competition with Eriri by saying she would be the one to help Tomoya from here on out.

Even later on it shows through their actions, with Megumi giving Tomoya a new pair of glasses on their date to replace the one Eriri took from him. Megumi psyched herself up as being Tomoya's only ally left.

When the Fields Chronicle key visual was shown, that was when Megumi finally understood why Eriri had to leave. That also shot her ego down a bit, because the impression she set up for herself as being Tomoya's only pillar of support was entirely wrong. Eriri is fighting her own battle against Akane in her own way, and there were no real hard feelings between her and Tomoya. The only one who believed that was Megumi.


So now Megumi is unsure of where she stands with Tomoya, since she lacks the creative experience to actually help him out with much, and that lack of creative experience is what led her to misunderstand why Eriri left the circle. It's all tied together.


Also, the ever changing first-name basic between Megumi and Tomoya is supposed to be ambiguous, because she is supposed to be hard to read. Her feelings are changing, but because of her personality, it's hard to tell how much she really cares. Figuring her out is part of the design.

Originally Posted by orange2501

The first name basis shouldn't even be a big deal in the first place because Megumi used Eriri's first name in volume 4 when their development is nothing compared to hers with Tomoya, but it has a ridiculous amount of focus these past two volumes. Personally, I feel it sometimes takes away from some scenes, the sandwich scene at the end of 9 probably would have been better if they didn't need to remind us they're on a first name basis again.

I personally don't care, mainly because American culture is different, so there is little weight to being on a first-name basis with someone.

However, I don't think I need to explain that being on a first-name basis between love interests and a friend of the same sex who will never be your love interest is entirely different

[orange2501]

Ah, I didn't read Girl's Side. I was under the impression it was mostly about Utaha and Eriri, and I thought volume 7 already did a good enough job explaining why they left the circle. That might explain some of my confusion. Is the last talk between Megumi and Eriri there significantly different than the one in volume 7?

[Shadow5YA]

It was mostly from Utaha and Eriri's perspective. Eriri did talk about the aftermath with Utaha, with how apparently her friendship with Megumi was over, and how she didn't expect Megumi to be so angry, then breaking into tears afterward.

We also get to see their meeting with Akane, a bit of backstory from Utaha's editor Machida, and Iori leaving Akane's circle.

- apparently Akane had most of the Fields Chronicle company stuff fired when she agreed to work on the game.
- she didn't care one bit for Utaha, and only needed her as a tool to get Eriri on board. If Eriri didn't agree, Utaha is useless to her.
- according to Machida, Akane's harsh personality was a result of her first commercial failure (?), where her first work, Gotanda no Carnival, was green-lit for an anime adaptation. She had no authority on the adaptation, which resulted in a butchered anime. That devastated her, so she spent the next five years amassing funds and talent until she had full control.
- Iori suggested Akane let Tomoya know about the offer to Eriri, but she didn't care.
- the girls wanted to beat Akane because she had zero respect for their work.

The volume pretty much set Akane up to be Tomoya's foil (which doesn't make sense... there's no way Tomoya's visual novel could outsell a major game...), but it also shows that Eriri is also fighting Akane in her own way.

[orange2501]

Oh, so that last talk between Eriri and Megumi wasn't too different in Girls' Side? Oh, okay. There's still some stuff I'm not too clear on.

Megumi more or less declared a competition with Eriri by saying she would be the one to help Tomoya from here on out.

I don't really remember this part in vol 7.

When the Fields Chronicle key visual was shown, that was when Megumi finally understood why Eriri had to leave. That also shot her ego down a bit, because the impression she set up for herself as being Tomoya's only pillar of support was entirely wrong. Eriri is fighting her own battle against Akane in her own way, and there were no real hard feelings between her and Tomoya. The only one who believed that was Megumi.

I don't see how the key visual shows Eriri as one of Tomoya's pillars of support. Like, it doesn't really help them make games at all. I also get that the nature of their first name basis is supposed to be a bit ambiguous, but this seems to be the bad kind where not much of it really makes sense. What part of the Eriri route made Megumi go back to a first name basis? I don't really know.

However, I don't think I need to explain that being on a first-name basis between love interests and a friend of the same sex who will never be your love interest is entirely different

Well, Megumi always struck me as the type that didn't care too much for romance. So far there hasn't really been a scene that's made her fall for him.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by orange2501

Oh, so that last talk between Eriri and Megumi wasn't too different in Girls' Side? Oh, okay. There's still some stuff I'm not too clear on.

I don't really remember this part in vol 7.

The conversation pretty much went:

"You left even though you knew it would hurt him!"
"B-but you left too! You didn't help Tomoya out when he was in trouble."
"You're right... but things are different now. I won't leave the circle again!"

Megumi was making a big effort to try filling in Eriri and Utaha's shoes in the following volume as well. As mentioned before, she gave Tomoya a new pair of glasses for the one Eriri took away. There's also the "let's vomit blood together, okay"? line that Utaha used at the end of volume 2.

Also during Tomoya's meeting with Iori, where the circle's scenario was rejected because "it wouldn't sell", Megumi grew uncharacteristically irritated and pressed Iori for an explanation.

Originally Posted by orange2501

I don't see how the key visual shows Eriri as one of Tomoya's pillars of support. Like, it doesn't really help them make games at all. I also get that the nature of their first name basis is supposed to be a bit ambiguous, but this seems to be the bad kind where not much of it really makes sense. What part of the Eriri route made Megumi go back to a first name basis? I don't really know.

Akane is built up to be Tomoya's rival, as someone with entirely opposite circumstances to Tomoya. She runs a big business, has no respect for other talent, and became a completely different person from one failure in the past. That's not to mention of course, that where Akane lost Iori and Izumi and gained Eriri and Utaha, while Tomoya got Iori and Izumi on his side when he just lost Eriri and Utaha.
When Iori dropped a comment about how she and Tomoya are similar in some ways, Akane even states that it's increasingly likely she would never get along with Tomoya.

Also on the Girls' Side, it's established that Eriri went to work for Akane not only to better herself, but also to "defeat" her and get her to recognize Utaha's talents, since Akane said Utaha was worthless other than to get Eriri on board.

Eriri may not be in Tomoya's circle, but she is still opposing Akane in her own way.


Since Eriri and Megumi's falling out, Megumi has been pushing herself to fill their shoes as Tomoya's pillars of support because she believed that the friend she knew was gone. When the key visual was shown, it not only established that Megumi could never replace Eriri, but also that Eriri herself isn't the enemy Megumi thought she was. So the tension Megumi raised for herself wore off a bit, and she went back to the status quo.

Originally Posted by orange2501

Well, Megumi always struck me as the type that didn't care too much for romance. So far there hasn't really been a scene that's made her fall for him.

It was believed that Megumi was the type that didn't care too much for anything, and that she was a rather cool-headed, stoic girl. That's why on the Girls' Side, it was rather surprising for Eriri to see Megumi upset.

Since Eriri left, it's established that Megumi does care a great deal about the circle - more than anyone had ever imagined. The focus of the series after Eriri's departure is the mystery of how much Megumi's passion is growing as she changes from the "flat" girl everyone knew her as to someone rather serious.

Whether that passion pertains to just the game, the circle, or Tomoya himself is still up in the air.

[Kuroageha]

To be honest it would be refreshing if Megumi doesn't falls on the romance interest bag, a character that is set on relationships between character beyond being the token romance takes more effort and is a perfect reflection of a writer skills.

Contrast to another heroine type characters that are shoehorned for reasons, pretends it's actually relevant when isn't in the grand scheme and to make it worse, the character can't even move on her own unless it's revolved around her romantic interest that is, of course, the MC and the interaction with other female characters is minimal or just inexistent.

And that's what you see when looking at a look of "harem series".

[orange2501]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

The conversation pretty much went:

"You left even though you knew it would hurt him!"
"B-but you left too! You didn't help Tomoya out when he was in trouble."
"You're right... but things are different now. I won't leave the circle again!"

Megumi was making a big effort to try filling in Eriri and Utaha's shoes in the following volume as well. As mentioned before, she gave Tomoya a new pair of glasses for the one Eriri took away. There's also the "let's vomit blood together, okay"? line that Utaha used at the end of volume 2.

Hmm, I just interpreted that part as Megumi countering Eriri's implication that it was okay for her to leave since Megumi did so too.

Also on the Girls' Side, it's established that Eriri went to work for Akane not only to better herself, but also to "defeat" her and get her to recognize Utaha's talents, since Akane said Utaha was worthless other than to get Eriri on board.

I'm not really a fan of this part, it's giving too much importance to Eriri and makes Utaha seem more irrelevant than she already was. Like, throughout the series the general idea is that the two are equals. I also don't see how Eriri would "defeat" Akane by drawing even better. Wouldn't that just make it harder for Utaha to keep up since she has to write better?

Since Eriri and Megumi's falling out, Megumi has been pushing herself to fill their shoes as Tomoya's pillars of support because she believed that the friend she knew was gone. When the key visual was shown, it not only established that Megumi could never replace Eriri, but also that Eriri herself isn't the enemy Megumi thought she was. So the tension Megumi raised for herself wore off a bit, and she went back to the status quo.

I don't see how the key visual shows that Megumi can't replace Eriri as a pillar of support. It was obvious from the start she couldn't draw, and the key visual doesn't really show how Eriri is supporting the circle in a way she can't. In fact, things seem even more tense in volume 9. Personally, I think the key visual just showed how the circle was holding Eriri back and she would never get as good as she did if she stayed, which puts Eriri in a better light and makes Megumi seem like the bad guy for not wanting her to leave.

Since Eriri left, it's established that Megumi does care a great deal about the circle - more than anyone had ever imagined. The focus of the series after Eriri's departure is the mystery of how much Megumi's passion is growing as she changes from the "flat" girl everyone knew her as to someone rather serious.

Not really a fan of this "serious" Megumi. Some of the things she does makes her seem like an outright jerk, like how she flat-out ignores Iori, provokes Tomoya by pressing his trauma buttons, and avoiding making up with Eriri even when Eriri is the one who wants to meet her.

Also, the reveal that Megumi cares so much about the circle came off as a bit lacking because the scenes where the circle actually works on the game is done almost entirely off-screen. We don't really see how much fun Megumi had working on it. Some scenes like the ones in episode 0 where the circle just hangs out are actually really important, and the novel doesn't seem to have much of those. When the anime adapts these parts I wouldn't mind some filler like this.

[sweec1890]

I just think that Megumi made herselft becoming different by "not falling in love with " Tomoya.
Eriri and Utaha both have something that Megumi is lack of (like past memory with Tomoya, talent,...) and even Tomoya has something special - his motivation, his otaku side,...
I don't know where she would stand if she can't keep that "flat" expression.

Girls' side till now just have one vol. I wouldn't be suprised (and somehow becoming crazy... :3) if author gives Megumi whole one vol. I still want to know more about a year that Tomoya "ignored" Megumi... wonder whether that year had something special event.
Still keep calm and wait for someone makes a "detail" summary of vol 9 :3
PS: #Teamboringgirl LOL

[Kuroageha]

I'm sure Girls' side has 2 volumes.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by orange2501

I'm not really a fan of this part, it's giving too much importance to Eriri and makes Utaha seem more irrelevant than she already was. Like, throughout the series the general idea is that the two are equals. I also don't see how Eriri would "defeat" Akane by drawing even better. Wouldn't that just make it harder for Utaha to keep up since she has to write better?

Utaha already has confidence in herself. It was stated that she was worried about Eriri, who as everyone (even Akane) knew, was in a slump.

What the two intend on doing is getting Akane to respect them, since given her character, she sees both of them as nothing more than tools to get her ideas to sell. Eriri wasn't free from Akane's trash talking either, since when Eriri was about to turn down the offer, Akane called her a rather terrible artist for being in a slump after one good drawing when she expected more improvements from her.

The point is, even if they're working for Akane, she is still their opponent since as a person, Akane shows no love towards other creators.

Originally Posted by orange2501

I don't see how the key visual shows that Megumi can't replace Eriri as a pillar of support. It was obvious from the start she couldn't draw, and the key visual doesn't really show how Eriri is supporting the circle in a way she can't. In fact, things seem even more tense in volume 9.

Eriri and Utaha did more than draw and write while they were in Utaha's circle. They also helped coordinate the project, since Tomoya had no experience as a professional.

Originally Posted by orange2501

Personally, I think the key visual just showed how the circle was holding Eriri back and she would never get as good as she did if she stayed, which puts Eriri in a better light and makes Megumi seem like the bad guy for not wanting her to leave.

Well, yes, they've been saying that Tomoya has been holding her back for like two volumes + a side story.

But that's exactly what bothers Megumi. The key visual, and the story in general has been saying that it's inevitable Eriri would leave, because Tomoya, Megumi, and the circle's goals and standards are much lower than what Eriri needs. Megumi hates the idea that it was destined for her best friend to leave.

Originally Posted by orange2501

Not really a fan of this "serious" Megumi. Some of the things she does makes her seem like an outright jerk, like how she flat-out ignores Iori, provokes Tomoya by pressing his trauma buttons, and avoiding making up with Eriri even when Eriri is the one who wants to meet her.

Megumi doesn't like Iori because 1) he's an outsider who wasn't a part of the circle she loved so much, and 2) Iori teased her about being Tomoya's rather "severe" girlfriend.

Also, I don't think provoking Tomoya was her intention as much as she is too sharp in the wrong places. When Eriri was in a dress in volume 5, Megumi was the one who called attention to it. She had always been rather good at teasing them.

And Megumi doesn't want to meet Eriri because she wants to prove herself to her. As mentioned above, Megumi doesn't want to think that their circle's standards are too low to be incompatible with Eriri.

So now Megumi feels that she not only had to fill the void in their circle, but she has to make their game the best thing ever, in order to convince herself that the circle is good enough for Eriri's goals as an artist.

Originally Posted by orange2501

Also, the reveal that Megumi cares so much about the circle came off as a bit lacking because the scenes where the circle actually works on the game is done almost entirely off-screen. We don't really see how much fun Megumi had working on it. Some scenes like the ones in episode 0 where the circle just hangs out are actually really important, and the novel doesn't seem to have much of those. When the anime adapts these parts I wouldn't mind some filler like this.

I don't think those extra scenes would help much, since as a whole, Eriri was rather stoic and never showed much enthusiasm even when she did enjoy something.

But what little effort she did make showed that she was invested at the least. For example, she went shopping with Eriri at one point to pick out clothes for her to impress Tomoya.

She was also the one who dragged Eriri to go see Tomoya when he ran off to manage Michiru's band.

[Kuroageha]

Megumi also dislikes how Iori can see through her which in my opinion puts her out of her comfort zone.