Saenai Heroine no Sodatekata/How to Train the Ordinary Girl to be a Heroine [LN]

[orange2501]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Eriri and Utaha did more than draw and write while they were in Utaha's circle. They also helped coordinate the project, since Tomoya had no experience as a professional.

Well yeah, but in volume 7 Tomoya mentioned how Megumi's changes to directing and whatnot were what made the game special. They don't have to worry about coordinating any more with Iori there either.

Megumi doesn't like Iori because 1) he's an outsider who wasn't a part of the circle she loved so much, and 2) Iori teased her about being Tomoya's rather "severe" girlfriend.

I get that, but outright ignoring him is a bit much. That's worse than how Tomoya treats him.

Also, I don't think provoking Tomoya was her intention as much as she is too sharp in the wrong places. When Eriri was in a dress in volume 5, Megumi was the one who called attention to it. She had always been rather good at teasing them.

At one point in volume 9 she mentions how provoking Tomoya was her intention. During the epilogue where she reads Eriri's route, the way she teases him is pretty harsh.

And Megumi doesn't want to meet Eriri because she wants to prove herself to her. As mentioned above, Megumi doesn't want to think that their circle's standards are too low to be incompatible with Eriri.

So now Megumi feels that she not only had to fill the void in their circle, but she has to make their game the best thing ever, in order to convince herself that the circle is good enough for Eriri's goals as an artist.

I was under the impression that Eriri's key visual showed that her goal was impossible, and now she doesn't want to apologize to Eriri because she doesn't want to admit that she was wrong.

I don't think those extra scenes would help much, since as a whole, Eriri was rather stoic and never showed much enthusiasm even when she did enjoy something.

I don't think that's true. There are several scenes where you can see that she really is enjoying herself. Like, there's the end of episode 0 where she runs off and faces Tomoya with a smile, and there's the end of episode 3 where's clearly enthusiastic about the game. She clearly enjoyed her date with Tomoya, and her call with Tomoya in Michiru's arc showed that she had fun working on the game.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by orange2501

Well yeah, but in volume 7 Tomoya mentioned how Megumi's changes to directing and whatnot were what made the game special. They don't have to worry about coordinating any more with Iori there either.

That doesn't really change how she feels about herself. It's not like Tomoya ever let her know how important she is to him outside of his 2d otaku lingo, not to mention a lot of the time Tomoya isn't sure himself and also treats her like Classmate B.

Originally Posted by orange2501

I get that, but outright ignoring him is a bit much. That's worse than how Tomoya treats him.

Yeah, but unlike Megumi, Tomoya doesn't really hold any grudge. He still respects Iori's business sense, even back when Iori's circle was directly competing against him.

Responding to Iori's teasing wouldn't help Megumi either, since it would mean proving that he can indeed see right through her feelings. Ignoring him is her way of neither confirming nor denying what he says.

Originally Posted by orange2501

At one point in volume 9 she mentions how provoking Tomoya was her intention. During the epilogue where she reads Eriri's route, the way she teases him is pretty harsh.

It's not like it's Megumi's fault Tomoya directly uses his personal experience and projects it onto the game itself. He brought a lot of it upon himself for being the indecisive harem protagonist he is. Eriri leaving the circle was also partially his fault too.

Provoking Tomoya is also Megumi's effort to leave an impactful impression as a main heroine. Tomoya said she lacked presence before. In this second half (post Eriri's departure), things are different now.

Originally Posted by orange2501

I was under the impression that Eriri's key visual showed that her goal was impossible, and now she doesn't want to apologize to Eriri because she doesn't want to admit that she was wrong.

Close. Even if we think it's impossible, that doesn't mean Megumi wants to admit it. Admitting that it's impossible means that accepting Eriri's decision to leave, and more importantly, her choice not to tell her best friend about it, was right.

And technically, while Eriri wasn't wrong to leave the circle, not telling Tomoya and Megumi about it was. Even if Megumi is being stubborn about it, she still doesn't want to accept that it was right for Eriri to keep her in the dark about it just because the circle was holding Eriri back.

Originally Posted by orange2501

I don't think that's true. There are several scenes where you can see that she really is enjoying herself. Like, there's the end of episode 0 where she runs off and faces Tomoya with a smile, and there's the end of episode 3 where's clearly enthusiastic about the game. She clearly enjoyed her date with Tomoya, and her call with Tomoya in Michiru's arc showed that she had fun working on the game.

She also offered to work on scripting the game, which showed how eager she was to be a part of the circle. It was Tomoya who brushed her off, thinking she wasn't serious about it because of her personality.

The scenes were there. It's more that Tomoya overlooked Megumi's investment into the circle (and it is written from his perspective after all), which was why she had left once in the first place.

[pedrojames]

Can someone spoil about volume 10 ?

[AB079]

This is gonna be a brief summary about volume 10, just to be clear, this volume is more about pride and is moving away from what we saw on volume 8 and 9 especially if we take a look at what is happening with Tomoya and Utaha.

Spoiler for v 10:

This volume begins time after the end of volume 9, Tomoya and Co went to a field trip to get new experiences and with this being able to finish their project. At the start it was just Tomoya and the team from Blessing Software but obviously since the "field trip" is on the beach you can't stop having Utaha and Eriri on the same pleace.

You guys remember Akane Kousaka? well this girl is what we can call the main "villain" of the story just for one scene, she was in the same place as all the other characters but this time she was giving some sort of advice to Eriri and Utaha (they are working together). This advice went from simple things to a heavy criticism against them and while Eriri is able to hold back her feelings of disappointment, Utaha's will ended into the oblivion, she literally lost all her confidence and started to think her work is not on the top anymore - this is the opposite of the previous 3 volumes where we can see a Utaha that can be called the strongest girl in the LN - but the worst part for Utaha wasn't just losing her confidence, is showing her weakness to the person she love the most, Tomoya.

After talking with Eriri a bit and finally leaving the place, Utaha began to cry desperately, Eriri was obviously supporting her even when she still holds some mixed feelings after noticing how close Utaha and Tomoya are.

Obviously, Tomoya did the same bullshit as previous volumes, using the real life experience to create a game where Utaha was the main heroine and use what happened as main content. All of this Otaku delusion from Tomoya showed every single aspect of Utaha since their meeting until the last event on the beach and Utaha after playing the game was angry, not towards Tomoya but against herself. The main reason why she acted like that is because she noticed that in Tomoya's mind, Utaha is a girl that doesn't even need him to fulfill her own dreams and desires, someone strong enough to walk her own path alone and Utaha rejected this by saying that she can't accept this heroine (basically all this paragraph in the LN is trying to show how she really wants to be the number 1 for Tomoya and stay with him in a romantic way but that means changing herself so Tomoya can stop thinking that Utaha is able to do everything by herself without him).

As always Tomoya acted like a huge idiot, this happened mainly because when he heard Utaha rejecting his heroine (which means rejecting the way he feels about Utaha) his feelings were affected too and now Tomoya and Utaha who used to be together now started to move away, on different paths. Personally I don't think their relationship ended but they are in a really bad spot right now, Utaha angry at this situation and Tomoya literally being unable to comprehend the situation.

The only person who improved after all of this drama was Utaha, who became even more stronger than before, this thanks to how Akane triggered all this situation and how Tomoya put all his feelings toward Utaha in the game.

PD: there is no more important content about volume 10 to be honest, the rest is pure fanservice, games, some funny scenes, girls on swimsuit, etc.

[bones]

So what do you think will happen in the next volume? Will it be a continuation or has the Tomoya / Utaha problem been wrapped up?

[AB079]

Volume 10 is Utaha centric, but after all the previous volumes and how the author managed to extend the problems between the characters (IMO unnecessary sometimes, like Eriri conflict) this is the start of a whole pile of drama + how Akane play with the other character's minds.

That said, I think this is going to last for at least 1 or 2 volumes more unless the author wants to leave Utaha out of the Tomoya bowl.

[Kuroageha]

Akane is no villain, even antagonist doesn't fits to describe her because what she does is her job and giving them advice as much as it hurts their pride (or more like the ego they have when thinking of MC) she does it to make them improve themselves.

On the other side Tomoya still is a huge moron who only does more harm tham good, it's like his very presence caused things to go wrong and for worse, when someone criticizes him he acts like a brat in adult body. He truly is what drags Utaha and Eriri's promising future.


That said the editorial is just milking the series by dragging the drama, note how most if not all of the characters developments just happen to exclude Tomoya and be between the girls.
It was supposed to be over but here it is on going.

[AB079]

What Akane does is not part of her job, she's powerful, has intelligence and a lot of connections which makes her literally a Mary Sue inside Saekano, giving advice is just because she can't stand looking how someone talented as Utaha is wasting time with someone like Tomoya. What happened on volume 10 is literally a mix of 2 things, one is pushing Utaha and Eriri to be better and stop getting dragged by Tomoya and his lack of touch and the second one basically can be summarized with "I'm the best so you listen to me or you will fall down", she's not a bad person at all but her own ego sometimes works against her to the point you can use the term villain at some point. If we want to see what's the attitude of Akane, then we need to compare her with Haruno from Oregairu because they are very similar, not bad people but they always "act" as the villain to get the best of others without leaving aside their own selfish desires.

As for Tomoya, well what we can do? he's an idiot who dont deserve being this lucky, the worst and most painful part after reading volume 10 is how he's so stupid that can't even have a proper talk with Utaha but instead he use all of this on a game just to get the backlash at the end of the volume with Utaha crying and screaming with anger as the only feeling inside her. And even more than that, during all the rest of the field trip he was having fun while thinking what happend with Utaha, meanwhile she left the place like running away from him, any reasonable person should go and catch her.

At least after all the drama in this volume there are a few things that went right, Utaha moving on and being even more charming/competent on her work, and Tomoya literally getting stomped by his own stupidity.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by AB079

This is gonna be a brief summary about volume 10, just to be clear, this volume is more about pride and is moving away from what we saw on volume 8 and 9 especially if we take a look at what is happening with Tomoya and Utaha.

Spoiler for v 10:

The main reason why she acted like that is because she noticed that in Tomoya's mind, Utaha is a girl that doesn't even need him to fulfill her own dreams and desires, someone strong enough to walk her own path alone and Utaha rejected this by saying that she can't accept this heroine (basically all this paragraph in the LN is trying to show how she really wants to be the number 1 for Tomoya and stay with him in a romantic way but that means changing herself so Tomoya can stop thinking that Utaha is able to do everything by herself without him).

Well, it seems you have mistunderstood something....

Spoiler:

The above storyline that Utaha ends up walking alone is only in the first draft of her route, but Tomoya ended up changing that into an all happy end on both work and love, and it was done by having the MC to touch up on her style. Utaha was angry because she cannot accept this kind of writing that twisted many things, especially as a creator the heroine should not lightly surrender her own creation to other people to modify the root portion her plot. It's her own creation that just belongs to her.

So Utaha will never accept this heroine because she is still strong enough to hold her pride as creator. But Tomoya hold his stance that it's a galgame, and a strong girl with weakness is surely more attractive than one that is strong enough to stand on her own. So it ends up with both of them denying each other.

And the best part of this volume actually lies in the epilogue....

Spoiler for epilogue:

Spoiler:

Kousaka came to pick up Tomoya to Comike, and show him the latest scenario for Fields Chronical XIII. Utaha actually got herself together after player the demo game, then ends up with a renewed crazy storyline: The main villian became a really good guy, loved by family and the people. But because of this goodwill of everybody, every one of them fight to protect him, only the make the end result worse and worse. At the end the final monster is a chimera formed by the villian's family body parts.

Basically everyone who read the text got sick, including those on the meeting with the game publisher....then Utaha said: "Actually, there's a continuation to this story..." and that is to have the MC group jump back in time to change things into happy end.

Now this is amazing, and a very good irony to Tomoya's scenario and situation.

It seems there should be a beach part that is being cut away from this volume. The train part is quite entertaining but it feels happy time is too short before the bad things come. Eriri's growth is very well portrayed in this volume. Tomoya's action toward Utaha is....this is repeating too much, though the content and result is different. This volume is also stepping quite deep into things about creators, and this is again the main conflict of the series. But writing a lot about creators also cause it harder to appreciate, not welcoming light readers, while in the volume itself repeated several times about don't make things for hardcore user only.

[obnuchious]

Originally Posted by AB079

What Akane does is not part of her job, she's powerful, has intelligence and a lot of connections which makes her literally a Mary Sue inside Saekano, giving advice is just because she can't stand looking how someone talented as Utaha is wasting time with someone like Tomoya. What happened on volume 10 is literally a mix of 2 things, one is pushing Utaha and Eriri to be better and stop getting dragged by Tomoya and his lack of touch and the second one basically can be summarized with "I'm the best so you listen to me or you will fall down", she's not a bad person at all but her own ego sometimes works against her to the point you can use the term villain at some point. If we want to see what's the attitude of Akane, then we need to compare her with Haruno from Oregairu because they are very similar, not bad people but they always "act" as the villain to get the best of others without leaving aside their own selfish desires.

As for Tomoya, well what we can do? he's an idiot who dont deserve being this lucky, the worst and most painful part after reading volume 10 is how he's so stupid that can't even have a proper talk with Utaha but instead he use all of this on a game just to get the backlash at the end of the volume with Utaha crying and screaming with anger as the only feeling inside her. And even more than that, during all the rest of the field trip he was having fun while thinking what happend with Utaha, meanwhile she left the place like running away from him, any reasonable person should go and catch her.

At least after all the drama in this volume there are a few things that went right, Utaha moving on and being even more charming/competent on her work, and Tomoya literally getting stomped by his own stupidity.

can I ask for more details?

[AB079]

@Alf actually there is no misunterstanding at all, you can choose whatever way to understand what happened with Utaha's rejection, on one hand as a creator - author who reject the fact that her own life was used in the game also because this can be considered as an insult towards her, and on the other hand you can look at it from a romantic perspective and that's what I did, Tomoya fucked up his opportunity to improve his relationship with her and we're able to see that multiple times in volume 10 (spoiler related) and here is where Utaha was mad at him because that is the way Tomoya thinks about Utaha and instead of saying the truth he was constantly throwing the same excuse "it's a game" "it's a galge" or even when she was literally rejecting this story "But still, I think this ending is the best. Not just that, even after you rejected it, I still think it’s the best". The only good thing coming out of all this, is how Utaha thanks to her feelings after playing the game and understanding what Akane told her turned into a more strong character, someone who has her pride and will back to pursue her dreams.

So yeah basically if you wanna go for the creator/author direction and avoid the romatic side is your choice, but I picked up the romantic side which is the important thing considering Maruto is using the same kind of problems and pushing the same drama related to the games created by Tomoya over and over again.

Spoiler for Tomoya's fails and other details:

-Chapter 4: Tomoya's work was to defend and protect Utaha from Akane's behavior but he's so stupid that he can't even realize that after his conversation with Eriri and how she literally asked for that.
-Chapter 5: Tomoya talks to Utaha trying to fix the situation after her conversation with Akane, but again he fails like the huge idiot he is.
-Chapter 6: instead of following Utaha he prefer to work in the game even after Megumi noticed how he was worried about Utaha.
-Chapter 8: After rejecting the game and how Utaha was implying what were her real feelings, Tomoya is unable to realize that pushing his view as a Otaku and saying he did a good job and he likes the ending, over and over again to finally still thinking as a creator without considering all the implications of what he did during volume 10, "They meant this was a farewell for creators. She told me we couldn’t make things together anymore, that the paths we walked were different, and that it was time for us to separate" "The scenario I worked so hard on didn’t reach her"

In the end Utaha loved the game and she was still playing it on Eriri's house, seems like she moved on by accepting the truth about her. Meanwhile Tomoya is still a terrible MC.

[dark44]

Originally Posted by AB079

@Alf actually there is no misunterstanding at all, you can choose whatever way to understand what happened with Utaha's rejection, on one hand as a creator - author who reject the fact that her own life was used in the game also because this can be considered as an insult towards her, and on the other hand you can look at it from a romantic perspective and that's what I did, Tomoya fucked up his opportunity to improve his relationship with her and we're able to see that multiple times in volume 10 (spoiler related) and here is where Utaha was mad at him because that is the way Tomoya thinks about Utaha and instead of saying the truth he was constantly throwing the same excuse "it's a game" "it's a galge" or even when she was literally rejecting this story "But still, I think this ending is the best. Not just that, even after you rejected it, I still think it’s the best". The only good thing coming out of all this, is how Utaha thanks to her feelings after playing the game and understanding what Akane told her turned into a more strong character, someone who has her pride and will back to pursue her dreams.

So yeah basically if you wanna go for the creator/author direction and avoid the romatic side is your choice, but I picked up the romantic side which is the important thing considering Maruto is using the same kind of problems and pushing the same drama related to the games created by Tomoya over and over again.

Spoiler for Tomoya's fails and other details:

-Chapter 4: Tomoya's work was to defend and protect Utaha from Akane's behavior but he's so stupid that he can't even realize that after his conversation with Eriri and how she literally asked for that.
-Chapter 5: Tomoya talks to Utaha trying to fix the situation after her conversation with Akane, but again he fails like the huge idiot he is.
-Chapter 6: instead of following Utaha he prefer to work in the game even after Megumi noticed how he was worried about Utaha.
-Chapter 8: After rejecting the game and how Utaha was implying what were her real feelings, Tomoya is unable to realize that pushing his view as a Otaku and saying he did a good job and he likes the ending, over and over again to finally still thinking as a creator without considering all the implications of what he did during volume 10, "They meant this was a farewell for creators. She told me we couldn’t make things together anymore, that the paths we walked were different, and that it was time for us to separate" "The scenario I worked so hard on didn’t reach her"

In the end Utaha loved the game and she was still playing it on Eriri's house, seems like she moved on by accepting the truth about her. Meanwhile Tomoya is still a terrible MC.

does that mean Utaha gave up on tomoya and she is out ??

[Alf]

Originally Posted by AB079

@Alf actually there is no misunterstanding at all, you can choose whatever way to understand what happened with Utaha's rejection, on one hand as a creator - author who reject the fact that her own life was used in the game also because this can be considered as an insult towards her, and on the other hand you can look at it from a romantic perspective and that's what I did, Tomoya fucked up his opportunity to improve his relationship with her and we're able to see that multiple times in volume 10 (spoiler related) and here is where Utaha was mad at him because that is the way Tomoya thinks about Utaha and instead of saying the truth he was constantly throwing the same excuse "it's a game" "it's a galge" or even when she was literally rejecting this story "But still, I think this ending is the best. Not just that, even after you rejected it, I still think it’s the best". The only good thing coming out of all this, is how Utaha thanks to her feelings after playing the game and understanding what Akane told her turned into a more strong character, someone who has her pride and will back to pursue her dreams.

So yeah basically if you wanna go for the creator/author direction and avoid the romatic side is your choice, but I picked up the romantic side which is the important thing considering Maruto is using the same kind of problems and pushing the same drama related to the games created by Tomoya over and over again.

Spoiler for Tomoya's fails and other details:

-Chapter 4: Tomoya's work was to defend and protect Utaha from Akane's behavior but he's so stupid that he can't even realize that after his conversation with Eriri and how she literally asked for that.
-Chapter 5: Tomoya talks to Utaha trying to fix the situation after her conversation with Akane, but again he fails like the huge idiot he is.
-Chapter 6: instead of following Utaha he prefer to work in the game even after Megumi noticed how he was worried about Utaha.
-Chapter 8: After rejecting the game and how Utaha was implying what were her real feelings, Tomoya is unable to realize that pushing his view as a Otaku and saying he did a good job and he likes the ending, over and over again to finally still thinking as a creator without considering all the implications of what he did during volume 10, "They meant this was a farewell for creators. She told me we couldn’t make things together anymore, that the paths we walked were different, and that it was time for us to separate" "The scenario I worked so hard on didn’t reach her"

In the end Utaha loved the game and she was still playing it on Eriri's house, seems like she moved on by accepting the truth about her. Meanwhile Tomoya is still a terrible MC.

It's not an interpretation issue.

Spoiler:

It's written in text that Tomoya changed the scenario into all happy ending instead of each of them walking alone as writers, and Utaha said all those rejection reasons by herself, not my interpretation. And those are actually sound reasons.

But your summary is saying that Tomoya let her play the scenario that Utaha walk alone. Just read what is after Utaha said: "What's this? What's this 'success on both love and work without any worries' happy end?"

I was merely pointing out what is wrong with the summary. And no, I don't avoid the romantic side of it. It's unavoidable because romantic affection is part of the motivation for these people as creators.

On romantic side, now this is the domain of interpretation.

Spoiler:

It's actually likely that Tomoya's scenario actually blocked her way to choose to be the weak girl because "as a creator it feels defeated", and that could be an unspoken reason for her to feel angry. But that could be one of the reason why it worked to make her strong.

There really hasn't been a lot of problem in the relationship between Tomoya and Utaha before this, and from Tomoya's perspective to improve relationship with her is to be better as a creator. You don't fix things that's working, but he managed to put a wall between them (again).

Spoiler for Is Tomoya an idiot?:

Yeah, he's an idiot who can't manage personal relationship properly, but writing a scenario is the best thing he can do to touch Utaha's heart, something that mere words couldn't. That scenario is actually filled with his fantasy towards Utaha, so it could be regarded as a "love letter" to Utaha. But he changed the ending to make the herione to stand weaker as a creator to say he can support her, and that is insulting for Utaha.

On romantic perspective it's actually quite delicious for Utaha as seen in epilogue. But she have always chosen pride over actual romantic possibility.

Originally Posted by dark44

does that mean Utaha gave up on tomoya and she is out ??

Apparently no. Though their stance as creators could affect her opportunity a lot.

[Ruki0089]

I heard mc got ntr-ed... is that true??

[AB079]

Originally Posted by Ruki0089

I heard mc got ntr-ed... is that true??

Who was the idiot saying that?

No, Tomoya never got NTR'd. Is not like most of the readers including myself wants to see the girls moving on and getting a proper guy at their sides tho.

[Tenzen12]

I can't speak for most people (some poll would be nice), but I for example would be perfectly fine if Megumi (?) got herself guy or two.

[AP24]

Just realized the manga covering the main story already ended. It covered up until the end of the first year or LN vol 7.

[Kuroageha]

So did Maruto stop stretching his ridiculous waiting game with Megumi as the end girl already?

The novels became as lame as Oreshura with its fake love triangle drama.

It's sad he is writing a subpar story like this instead of aiming high like he did with masterpieces like WA2 CODA.

Edit:
Eh, dafuck, I saw a sample text, even now the imbecile is thinking of game events, there should be a limit to be delusional.
I guess Misaki Kurehito is the true appeal of this series.

[Alf]

Well, Saekano wasn't aiming for masterpiece to start with. I'm actually quite enjoying him writing about writing scenarios. Anyway, read the actual novel before criticizing it.

The latest volume is actually having satisfying interactions and moving forward the relationship. Thinking of game events is an important part of Tomoya's mind, rather than being delusional or something. This is getting clear in this volume(if you read the text carefully enough). Although not a lot is happening, this volume is also a significant turning point of the story.

[AB079]

Oh c'mon cut the bullshit already, we know you really like Saekano but let's be honest, is not even close to be good or at least being a LN that has to be considered average. Maruto just started a story that used to have a lot of potential (especially the first 4 -5 volumes) but ended on being a endless loop where he repeats everything over and over again just to pander the fans that like "X" girl and sell more copies.

Also as far as i'm concerned, both Kuroageha and me read the LN but at least we're aware about the fact that the LN at this point is just a story getting milked and suffering of very bad writting/poorly made character development.

The last volume is nothing but a confirmation of the bad state of this title, especially because Tomoya is still the exact same useless main character from early volumes surrounded by amazing girls that ironically are begging for an opportunity with him. Is not a problem of reading the text properly, is matter of not deluding yourself with it, as you already did.