Saenai Heroine no Sodatekata/How to Train the Ordinary Girl to be a Heroine [LN]

[orange2501]

Originally Posted by AB079

I assume you know nothing more than summaries and your reading comprehension is terrible, because volume 9 and 10 are focused on Eriri and Utaha for the sole purpose or getting rid of them and finally focus on Megumi, those 2 volumes were a complete waste when Maruto can easily just place all what happened on volume 11 long time ago.

Except Volume 7 already got rid of them. 9 and 10 are completely meaningless, they don't have a purpose. They're there just to extend the main series until the anime airs. And nice assumption, I've read the LNs themselves.

Everyone knows Megumi was the closest to Tomoya since volume 7, but part 2 came out and everything turned into a drama fest instead of just going for the most simple way and keep the mood of the beginning of this story.

No, Part 2 didn't turn into a drama fest, it turned into nothing. Volumes 9 and 10 are a complete void. Volume 11 has almost no drama, it's very sweet.

11 volumes withour progress on the main character, instead what do we get? drama, fanservice, and Tomoya being the same incompetent MC. Anyone can see that the story will never evolve if Tomoya doesn't change, and that's the problem with Maruto, he's trying to do that but using the girls as plot device instead of fixing Tomoya's personality.

Except Tomoya does change. Look at how much better he is at reading Megumi than he used to be. He's also got a better understanding of what a creator is.

Lemme explain this in a more simple way so you can understand what I mean. Volume 9 and 10 are a mistake but they worked on 1 thing and that's putting Utaha and Eriri on a stage where they cannot get close to Tomoya again in a romantic way, this works perfectly to push Megumi way over them.

No, it was established long ago Utaha never had a chance. Eriri had a chance until she ruined things in Volume 7. You think Volumes 9 and 10 put them on that stage when it's clear V7 did that. And that's why 9 and 10 are so bad, they're utterly redundant and, in 10's case, outright regressive.

Now moving to another detail, you're confirming my words about yourself and volume 11, this last volume was good in terms of Megumi's development but aside that was still the same poorly made story trying to fix the mess of the other 2 previous volumes.

It doesn't fix anything because nothing happened. Megumi had almost no screentime in the past two volumes, there was nothing to fix.

There is only 1 way to fix this, hit Tomoya with a stong change that makes him aware of what's going on instead of being the same passive and pathethic MC, reaching a stage where he's competent enough to have a proper relationship with Megumi (a romantic one)

This was done by Volume 11, or it would have if the laws of storytelling didn't dictate that every romance story needed conflict. We have no idea who went to the hospital though, so we don't know if he progresses or regresses.

and the rest of the girls (as friends/co-workers), then finally making him a successful game creator. That's it, and Maruto doesn't need to push this for 3-4 volumes, it can be done in just 2 volumes.

He's already friends with all the other girls. I don't think this is all there is to do for the series, there's stuff like what he'll do for the future (college or whatever) and there's a lot of material on the Eriri vs Megumi side of things.

[AB079]

Originally Posted by orange2501

Except Volume 7 already got rid of them. 9 and 10 are completely meaningless, they don't have a purpose. They're there just to extend the main series until the anime airs. And nice assumption, I've read the LNs themselves.

Volume 7 got rid of them, volume 8 just put Utaha in the screentime and Eriri was in the same place as supporting character only worth to make fun of it, Volume 9 and 10 are pure meaningless drama focusing on Eriri and Utaha. Are you even trying to read the posts before giving a response? if you haven't noticed both of us agree on the fact vols 9 and 10 are shit.

Originally Posted by orange2501

No, Part 2 didn't turn into a drama fest, it turned into nothing. Volumes 9 and 10 are a complete void. Volume 11 has almost no drama, it's very sweet.

Again, you're missing the point having your mind full of Megumi, now is 100% clear that you're a biased fan of her. That being said volume 9 and 10 are pure drama as I said before, especially on Utaha's side while Eriri is just acting as a supporting character even when she's getting hurt too or are you going to say what happened after the conversation between Akane-Eriri-Utaha wasn't unneccesary?

Originally Posted by orange2501

Except Tomoya does change. Look at how much better he is at reading Megumi than he used to be. He's also got a better understanding of what a creator is.

This is getting repetitive, focusing you POV on Megumi. Can you take 1 minute to analize the way how Maruto is putting the pieces here? he's just making Megumi the winner all over the place, which means, Tomoya is OBVIOUSLY going to show some little changes just for her and ignore everyone else, even his childhood friend.

You're just avoiding looking at the rest of the story, because if we talk about Eiriri and Utaha, Tomoya is a complete incompetent even when he knows them even more than Megumi, who was for him a mystery for a long time.

Originally Posted by orange2501

No, it was established long ago Utaha never had a chance. Eriri had a chance until she ruined things in Volume 7. You think Volumes 9 and 10 put them on that stage when it's clear V7 did that. And that's why 9 and 10 are so bad, they're utterly redundant and, in 10's case, outright regressive.

Are you really trying to say the kiss she gave him was nothing? or when they meet and went around holding their hands was nothing? or even more, how Tomoya was all head over heels for her thanks to how amazing she was for him?

Tomoya was attracted to her but obviously since Megumi is the main girl the author needs to send her into the trash. Volume 7 and 8 were the break point in the story and there is no doubt about that, volumes 9 and 10 focused on Eriri and Utaha just because he didn't knew how to handle the story, overextending this in the wrong way.

You said it yourself, proving my words being true about the actual flow of the story.

Originally Posted by orange2501

It doesn't fix anything because nothing happened. Megumi had almost no screentime in the past two volumes, there was nothing to fix.

Meaningless drama and forced situations for 2 volumes where even the Japanese fans showed a not so possitive reaction asking for more Megumi, yeah nothing to fix

Originally Posted by orange2501

This was done by Volume 11, or it would have if the laws of storytelling didn't dictate that every romance story needed conflict. We have no idea who went to the hospital though, so we don't know if he progresses or regresses.

Suddenly changing Tomoya ONLY for Megumi while he can't do shit when it comes for anyone else? you have no idea what a good character development really is.

Originally Posted by orange2501

He's already friends with all the other girls. I don't think this is all there is to do for the series, there's stuff like what he'll do for the future (college or whatever) and there's a lot of material on the Eriri vs Megumi side of things.

Utaha still have feelings for him, same goes to Eriri, now if we look at the rest of the characters... then yeah they are friends. The thing is the story needs to reach the point where Eriri and Utaha finally give up on him and assume their places as friends and that's not happening right now, simple as that.

Up to this point we're not reaching an understanding, you're biased about Megumi and how "great" for you is volume 11 ignoring everything else. No point on keeping the discussion further when you're not willing to understand the other person or even the ones who still have a negative point of view about this.

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by IceHism

What do you mean by pointless drama. All of maruto's stuff is drama.

There is glorious drama like WA2 & coda and then there is this thing.

[orange2501]

Originally Posted by AB079

Volume 7 got rid of them, volume 8 just put Utaha in the screentime and Eriri was in the same place as supporting character only worth to make fun of it, Volume 9 and 10 are pure meaningless drama focusing on Eriri and Utaha. Are you even trying to read the posts before giving a response? if you haven't noticed both of us agree on the fact vols 9 and 10 are shit.

We agree 9 and 10 are shit, but you said their purpose was to discard them. That's totally wrong. 9 doesn't even have drama, it's literally nothing. 10's drama is pointless and regressive.

Again, you're missing the point having your mind full of Megumi, now is 100% clear that you're a biased fan of her. That being said volume 9 and 10 are pure drama as I said before, especially on Utaha's side while Eriri is just acting as a supporting character even when she's getting hurt too or are you going to say what happened after the conversation between Akane-Eriri-Utaha wasn't unneccesary?

Is conversation the one in V10? If so, I've already said that Utaha is a completely useless character whose role was over in V7. So yes, it's unnecessary. Akane is an unnecessary character too.

This is getting repetitive, focusing you POV on Megumi. Can you take 1 minute to analize the way how Maruto is putting the pieces here? he's just making Megumi the winner all over the place, which means, Tomoya is OBVIOUSLY going to show some little changes just for her and ignore everyone else, even his childhood friend.

Because Megumi is the main heroine, and she's shown to be the one with the most compatibility.

You're just avoiding looking at the rest of the story, because if we talk about Eiriri and Utaha, Tomoya is a complete incompetent even when he knows them even more than Megumi, who was for him a mystery for a long time.

What do you mean "completely incompetent?" That he can't read their feelings? Well in Eriri's case, duh, she left in V7. Utaha told her feelings and rejected, there's nothing more to be done with their feelings.

Are you really trying to say the kiss she gave him was nothing? or when they meet and went around holding their hands was nothing? or even more, how Tomoya was all head over heels for her thanks to how amazing she was for him?

The kiss was in V7. That meant something. The rest don't mean anything. Utaha gave up in V7, she shouldn't even be around, and that hand holding shit is outright regressive.

Tomoya was attracted to her but obviously since Megumi is the main girl the author needs to send her into the trash. Volume 7 and 8 were the break point in the story and there is no doubt about that, volumes 9 and 10 focused on Eriri and Utaha just because he didn't knew how to handle the story, overextending this in the wrong way.

Tomoya wasn't attracted to her. The most he felt was lust. She'll always just be a goddess and senpai to him.

You said it yourself, proving my words being true about the actual flow of the story.

We both agree V9 and 10 are shit. We only disagree on how god V11 is.

Meaningless drama and forced situations for 2 volumes where even the Japanese fans showed a not so possitive reaction asking for more Megumi, yeah nothing to fix

So you're agreeing with me. Meaningless drama is the same as nothing.

Suddenly changing Tomoya ONLY for Megumi while he can't do shit when it comes for anyone else? you have no idea what a good character development really is.

Yes, only for Megumi. She's the one he's in love with, why would he be more perceptive about others?

Utaha still have feelings for him, same goes to Eriri, now if we look at the rest of the characters... then yeah they are friends. The thing is the story needs to reach the point where Eriri and Utaha finally give up on him and assume their places as friends and that's not happening right now, simple as that.

Utaha gave up in V7. She was rejected. I don't know why you're still hung up on her when it's clear as day she's irrelevant now. Eriri still has stuff to do, that's why I said there's more content left to be covered.

Up to this point we're not reaching an understanding, you're biased about Megumi and how "great" for you is volume 11 ignoring everything else. No point on keeping the discussion further when you're not willing to understand the other person.

I don't think you understand. In Part 2, Megumi is the only girl with relevance, with Eriri a distant second in that she still has value as the antagonist in the love triangle. Of course I'd ignore everything else, they focus on irrelevant girls. Eriri gets no meaningful development in V9, Utaha's story was finished a long time ago so thus V10 is pointless.

[AB079]

And finally thanks to this long discussion I went through your way of thinking. You're absolutely biased, as an extreme fan of Megumi and not putting attention to the writting style or how is the story at its basis filled with holes, badly done character development and pointless situations that add nothing to this. The very proof of that is how you're discarding the other 2 main characters that played an important part of the story and even calling them "useless", they are here for a reason and they are tools for Maruto so he can do something here.

In the end you can't analize the text properly thanks to that bias leading to validate my words, there you have as the very best example how I said originally the drama was unneccesary and pointless, then you said I was wrong and now on your post you're using my own words agreeing on the fact that vols 9 and 10 are nothing more than drama that should never existed in the first place.

That said, at least we agree on some points, Eriri as antagonist can be a good idea but I think Maruto will play the safe card leaving her as a supporting character helping or Megumi or Utaha and even Tomoya. Now that things are clear, this discussion is finally over.

[orange2501]

Originally Posted by AB079

And finally thanks to this long discussion I went through your way of thinking. You're absolutely biased, as an extreme fan of Megumi and not putting attention to the writting style or how is the story at its basis filled with holes, badly done character development and pointless situations that add nothing to this. The very proof of that is how you're discarding the other 2 main characters that played an important part of the story and even calling them "useless", they are here for a reason and they are tools for Maruto so he can do something here.

I never disagreed with you that Part 2 was badly done. We only disagreed on V11. Eriri and Utaha are side heroines, they are not the main characters. They were here for a reason up to V7, now they aren't. Eriri's only purpose is to complete the love triangle. You can't even come up for a compelling reason for Utaha to stay, so what are you on about her being a tool for Maruto?

In the end you can't analize the text properly thanks to that bias leading to validate my words, there you have as the very best example how I said originally the drama was unneccesary and pointless, then you said I was wrong and now on your post you're using my own words agreeing on the fact that vols 9 and 10 are nothing more than drama that should never existed in the first place.

No, you're biased against Megumi. You can't analyze at all. I agreed with you that the drama was unnecessary and pointless. You were wrong on why they were unnecessary and pointless. You said that they were to discard Eriri and Utaha to shift focus to Megumi, when the truth is that V7 already did that, and V9 and 10 did absolutely nothing meaningful. When V11 comes along with meaningful character development you get butthurt there's no screentime for Eriri and Utaha.

[AB079]

Eiriri got btfo before volume 7, I dont give a damn about her. Utaha on the other hand got more screentime and more development, not at the level of Megumi obviously but she's the only one who can move the gears a little bit and that happened before. There is a reason why Eriri got an entire bunch of volumes of screentime, the same goes for Utaha, is sad that you can't see it.

And now you're using buzzwords as calling me butthurt when I never attacked Megumi or even mentioned I'm mad at how Eriri and Megumi didn't got anything from vol 11? that's not only pathetic from your part, is proving how right I am about the LN and yourself.

It's really sad to see how you need to reach the level of any 4chan shitposter when you can't see ahead of your biased point of view, unable to see the reality of the entire LN as whole and even more than that putting words in my mouth when I never did such things like being biased against X character.

I won't waste more of my time with someone that cannot have a conversation without reaching the level of any random shitposter out of narrative arguments.

[orange2501]

Originally Posted by AB079

Eiriri got btfo before volume 7, I dont give a damn about her. Utaha on the other hand got more screentime and more development, not at the level of Megumi obviously but she's the only one who can move the gears a little bit and that happened before. There is a reason why Eriri got an entire bunch of volumes of screentime, the same goes for Utaha, is sad that you can't see it.

Utaha got more development before Volume 7 because she was supposed to leave the story sooner. You still haven't shown why the two girls are necessary for Part 2.

And now you're using buzzwords as calling me butthurt when I never attacked Megumi or even mentioned I'm mad at how Eriri and Megumi didn't got anything from vol 11? that's not only pathetic from your part, is proving how right I am about the LN and yourself.

Look at previous quotes. You accuse Maruto of stalling Saekano with Volume 12 when you have no idea who went to the hospital, why Megumi quit being main heroine, or what kind of development it'll have. Your bias is just as bad.

It's really sad to see how you need to reach the level of any 4chan shitposter when you can't see ahead of your biased point of view, unable to see the reality of the entire LN as whole and even more than that putting words in my mouth when I never did such things like being biased against X character.

I won't waste more of my time with someone that cannot have a conversation without reaching the level of any random shitposter out of narrative arguments.[

Nice, calling someone a shitposter rather than adequately addressing their points. You get asked to prove why Eriri and Utaha are necessary to Part 2 and you can't come up with anything. You don't give reasons for anything, not even for your so-called reality of the entire LN.

[Kuroageha]

Did you change position?
I'm sure he said that both Utaha and Eriri roles were over for the second part.and the fact they were there was stalling the series.

And I agree with that the current Maruto or his editor are cowards who don't want popular characters go when their time is due.

[Marcus H.]

To be fair, a lot of drama LN authors eventually fold in the end or just can't into drama at all.

Wataru Watari. Yomi Hirasaka. Tsukasa Fushimi. The list goes on.

[RedWingFM]

Hah, Volume 12 in on March, 18. Haaaaaaah, I wish this novel to end.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by AB079

Hahaha this is absolutely hilarious, Maruto is still pushing more pointless drama to milk the LN, check this out. This is one of those LN's who started in a really good way and ended on being utter trash thank's to the author's greed. Seriously he needs to cut the bullshit and end the story, there is not much to do and even Metronome is superior to this.

The Koisuru Metronome spin-off is supposed to be for Utaha fans only, but I don't think it's reaching a conclusion any time soon. It's showing Maruto's signature "drag-on, drag-out" touch for the key romance even though we know there's only one heroine for the MC this time. So I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that Metronome is better, because the story's still waffling about the main couple.

Despite Maruto's problematic writing style, White Album 2 sold very well and was called a "god game." Were people more willing to trudge through that kind of story because they knew it had a definitive end rather than continue to get dragged out by adding more volumes?

For those of us who are more interested in the upcoming second season of the Saenai Heroine anime adaptation, Yasuno Kiyono and Ai Kayano (Megumi's and Utaha's seiyuus) were guests at the 2017 Wonder Festival for anime-related figures. You can see their panel here:

It seems they had a bit of a game to determine which of the three new figurines was in which box, solely by touch. There was also a small part around 20 minutes where the two say Valentine's day confessions, and they show an upcoming novel cover too.

No appearance by Eriri's seiyuu, though.

[AB079]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

The Koisuru Metronome spin-off is supposed to be for Utaha fans only, but I don't think it's reaching a conclusion any time soon. It's showing Maruto's signature "drag-on, drag-out" touch for the key romance even though we know there's only one heroine for the MC this time. So I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that Metronome is better, because the story's still waffling about the main couple.

Despite Maruto's problematic writing style, White Album 2 sold very well and was called a "god game." Were people more willing to trudge through that kind of story because they knew it had a definitive end rather than continue to get dragged out by adding more volumes?

Like most of the people in this thread, Metronome is better because the storytelling is above than what you can find in the LN, despite having the same "dragging" issue that is usual from Maruto. Also it gives the opportunity to the Utaha fans to see something much better than throwing a bunch of volumes developing other girls aside from the main one to just discard them like trash. Is all under the premise that Maruto can't write drama or resolve it in a decent way and doesn't have anything to do with "muh waifu is the best" as some other fanboys try to say (i'm not saying that you're one of them to be clear).

About WA, are you really using the sales as some sort of backup? I believe you know that doesn't really matter most of the time, at best is an indicator of the reception by the public. Is indeed not a bad game but is another proof of how Maruto definelly needs to stop writting stories filled with drama or at least have someone at his side to fix these stories, because they have so much potential but it's all wasted. Even these days you can still see the rage of people who played the game

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by AB079

Like most of the people in this thread, Metronome is better because the storytelling is above than what you can find in the LN, despite having the same "dragging" issue that is usual from Maruto. Also it gives the opportunity to the Utaha fans to see something much better than throwing a bunch of volumes developing other girls aside from the main one to just discard them like trash. Is all under the premise that Maruto can't write drama or resolve it in a decent way and doesn't have anything to do with "muh waifu is the best" as some other fanboys try to say (i'm not saying that you're one of them to be clear).

So is Metronome better because the MC is just waffling over one heroine instead of a bunch? I remember there was one panel where Tomoya more or less blocked Eriri from any contribution to Metronome's story (though there's no in-universe reason given why he dismissed Eriri as an artist for Utaha's new novel out of hand, given that Utaha was the one who mentioned Eriri first), and there's been no indication that other female characters like Izumi and Michiru will be included in the story. Or are you saying that Metronome is better because there's almost no chance of Utaha being discarded?

I do like Metronome better than the original story in some ways, but Utaha still has yet to get some real character development in this spin-off. She's still got the same major problem in the spin-off that she does in the main story and there's no sign that she'll do the obvious thing and fix it.

I think that Maruto's problem could have come from his experience in writing VN titles. Stuff that would normally only go in individual heroine's routes has to be put out in the open for LNs that go down only one route to develop each character, but that means the development for non-winning heroines (which would go better in their own individual routes) gets wasted if they get discarded by the main plotline.

Originally Posted by AB079

About WA, are you really using the sales as some sort of backup? I believe you know that doesn't really matter most of the time, at best is an indicator of the reception by the public. Is indeed not a bad game but is another proof of how Maruto definelly needs to stop writting stories filled with drama or at least have someone at his side to fix these stories, because they have so much potential but it's all wasted. Even these days you can still see the rage of people who played the game

I mentioned the sales numbers because they're what determines whether the powers that be decide to greenlight further LN volumes, further game spinoffs, more anime seasons, etc. Many famous and long-running anime and manga series have lasted as long as they did because the fans still keep shelling out for them, even though the stories have gone very repetitive and dragged-out. I do agree that Maruto could use some more editing help.

By the way, even though Maruto makes fans rage, the voice actresses in the video I linked to seem to respect him (they mention "Maruto-sensei" a few times). Do you know what they're talking about when they mention his name or Misaki Kurehito's name (they refer to him as "Misaki-sensei")?

[AB079]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

So is Metronome better because the MC is just waffling over one heroine instead of a bunch? I remember there was one panel where Tomoya more or less blocked Eriri from any contribution to Metronome's story (though there's no in-universe reason given why he dismissed Eriri as an artist for Utaha's new novel out of hand, given that Utaha was the one who mentioned Eriri first), and there's been no indication that other female characters like Izumi and Michiru will be included in the story. Or are you saying that Metronome is better because there's almost no chance of Utaha being discarded?

I do like Metronome better than the original story in some ways, but Utaha still has yet to get some real character development in this spin-off. She's still got the same major problem in the spin-off that she does in the main story and there's no sign that she'll do the obvious thing and fix it.

I think that Maruto's problem could have come from his experience in writing VN titles. Stuff that would normally only go in individual heroine's routes has to be put out in the open for LNs that go down only one route to develop each character, but that means the development for non-winning heroines (which would go better in their own individual routes) gets wasted if they get discarded by the main plotline.

Maybe I explained myself in a not very clear way. Let's put the LN and Metronome in a balance just looking at the problems they have.

Metronome is a simplistic approach with the exact same problems but since is more simple these issues can't be noticed until you dig a bit more into it. The LN on the other hand has the same issues but they are easy to spot, there you have vols 9-10-11 as the apex of Maruto's writting problems. What you can find on Metronome is as you mentioned "girls left behind" instead of what you can get from the LN where Maruto literally wiped them out even after dedicating a lot of time on each one of them (talking about Eriri and utaha).

Now, usually in LN's that's not a big of an issue but when the story revolves around these relationships and interactions really affects the overall text, dragging this story for more time isn't helping either.

In the end, and this is only my opinion, Metronome and the LN are just average but Metronome is indeed better for the reasons I mentioned above.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I mentioned the sales numbers because they're what determines whether the powers that be decide to greenlight further LN volumes, further game spinoffs, more anime seasons, etc. Many famous and long-running anime and manga series have lasted as long as they did because the fans still keep shelling out for them, even though the stories have gone very repetitive and dragged-out. I do agree that Maruto could use some more editing help.

Agree to disagree. That depends entirely on Publishers, Studios, Labels, etc. Just look for example at Kyoukai senjou no Horizon with 2 seasons that reached over 50K in times where selling BD/DVD was important, and still Sunrise will never deliver another season again even when Love Live is finished (afaik).

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

By the way, even though Maruto makes fans rage, the voice actresses in the video I linked to seem to respect him (they mention "Maruto-sensei" a few times). Do you know what they're talking about when they mention his name or Misaki Kurehito's name (they refer to him as "Misaki-sensei")?

Maruto has a name in the industry and that's a really great achievement, the same happens with other authors like Kamachi or Kawakami for example. They respect him.

[Ringil]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

By the way, even though Maruto makes fans rage, the voice actresses in the video I linked to seem to respect him (they mention "Maruto-sensei" a few times). Do you know what they're talking about when they mention his name or Misaki Kurehito's name (they refer to him as "Misaki-sensei")?

So I wasn't paying attention the whole time, but they sounded just like generically respectful for putting in the work for the series.

[Kuroageha]

It's their job, they HAVE to be respectful when their culture demands it.

[AB079]

There is already some illustrations leaked of volume 12 and bits of information that needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Seems like Eriri will play an important role here, even if some people call her useless

Volume 12 will be aviable this friday so the information or summaries about it should be out in a couple of days after that.

Spoiler for Early spoilers:

They said something happened to Akane, Machida took her place for now and Tomoya was called to work as Editor. The other bits said that Tomoya left megumi behind and choose to focus on this "new" work.

Spoiler for Illustrations:

[Xftg123]

Can't wait for it! Also, it looks like Aki's matured now, seeing how he no glasses on. And, according to Amazon Japan, it's still the most anticipated LN volume from Fujimi Fantasia Bunko. . .

[AP24]

LN will end at Vol 13: https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/new...volume/.113592