The SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY News Thread

[C.A.]

It will be very different if the sun does it though, with most of the hydrogen and carbon fusing into heavier elements.

But if my organic molecules are spread instead, it may kick start life on other planets.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Yes, because exploration is totally a rich men's game, instead of something that has always inspired and sought out by mankind throughout history, and those are totally not volunteers, they were forced to sign up at gunpoint!!!

For what's it worth, exploration is a rich men's game, at least post Renaissance. Afaik most explorers then had backings or was already rich themselves because the sheer capital one needs to do it, and never out of pure curiosity either. And that's not counting the sheer cost of maintaining the colonies out of the ones that did succeed.

We can drop in supplies there every once in a while to maintain the colony, like the European colonies back then. I'm confident the people thinking of this plan is smart enough to think of that and planned to do so. What I'm concerned though is how long this lifeline will last.

Personally though, I think space colonization is still too early for humanity. Why not colonize the ocean bottoms instead? Lots of water and food there compared to space, and I'd imagine cheaper to maintain as wel.

[C.A.]

So when is it the right time to go to space? When oil runs out in 50 years and people start rioting?

If we start preparing now, by the time the first batch of Mars settlers set up base, it would be around 15 to 20 years and oil is already running dry.

And even if we're not talking oil, global warming etc., there are alot more reason we should go out there.

Staying back on Earth and thinking that we're still too early and should colonise the oceans when we already have the technology is like being fully grown adults that are fully equipped to live outside of your parents but choosing to stay in the backyard instead.

[erneiz_hyde]

The oceans have lots of untapped potentials. Fact is, we know more about planets and galaxies than we do our own ocean bottoms. I feel if we don't have the proper tech to colonize our own ocean, then we aren't ready for a space colony.

Doesn't mean I'm opposed to it though. People are certainly welcome to try, and their failure will pave the way for a better future to come along faster. Since time immemorial Trial and Error is Man's best teacher, even now after all the scientific enlightenment we went through. It will certainly provide insight on getting spacefaring business that little bit more viable.

[C.A.]

I love the ocean as well, but I'm less interested in colonising the ocean exactly because I love it. Ocean ecology is extremely delicate and I don't think its a good idea to mess around with it too much. Already ship traffic and fishing have caused alot of damage to ocean life, living down there would be disastrous.

And personally I don't buy the phrase "we know more about <insert anywhere else> than the sea" even when spoken by scientists. I can throw in any random example, like the ocean of Europa and be definitely sure that we know more about our ocean than that.

The ocean does in fact have lots of untapped potential, in the form of scientific knowledge, here's some random trivia I learnt from TEDtalks.

99% of all life on earth live in the mesopelagic zone of the ocean and their primary method of communicate is in the form of bioluminescence, even the tiniest of plankton. This means that visual communication is the most language on earth.

Dolphin research have now reached a point where we can now address them as "persons". They have shown themselves to carry enough intelligence, self awareness, language, culture, tool usage and many other factors to show that they are another intelligent species on this planet.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

I feel if we don't have the proper tech to colonize our own ocean, then we aren't ready for a space colony.

This is a pretty interesting idea. Given the concerns about rising sea levels, and just because it would be neat in general, it would seem to be a good idea to try and figure out how to do it.

I disagree that an inability to colonize the ocean means that we aren't ready for space. Some of the challenges are similar between the two, but others are very different. Off the top of my head, I can think of three:

1) Seawater is corrosive, not only from a chemical standpoint but from a biological one. Bacteria that break down some of the materials that we build with can be found in sea water. Corrosion is an issue to contend with in space, but not nearly to the degree that the ocean provides.

2) It's easier to perform gas exchange than it is to remove liquids. As far as this aspect goes, it would be easier to build in space (or on another planet) than it would be to build underneath the ocean.

3) Depending on how deep you go in the ocean and depending on what planet you're comparing it to, you have to contend with a lot more pressure in the ocean than you would in space (on another planet).

My main concern with colonizing other planets is the issue of supplies. The colonization that took place in the 1400's (and earlier and later) involved sending people off with supplies for the trip, but once they reached their destination they could become self-sufficient. There were animals to hunt, plants to harvest and grow, and wood to build with. If we send people off to a barren planet they'll be highly reliant on supplies from Earth to sustain themselves and to expand their operations.

Perhaps I'm lacking in creativity, but I'd think it would be better if we sent some of our plant life to other planets to "soften it up" and prepare it for humans. Capture some ice comets and divert them to the planet if water isn't readily apparent, and then seed the planet with desirable plant species.

[SummeryDreams]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

This is a pretty interesting idea. Given the concerns about rising sea levels, and just because it would be neat in general, it would seem to be a good idea to try and figure out how to do it.

I disagree that an inability to colonize the ocean means that we aren't ready for space. Some of the challenges are similar between the two, but others are very different. Off the top of my head, I can think of three:

1) Seawater is corrosive, not only from a chemical standpoint but from a biological one. Bacteria that break down some of the materials that we build with can be found in sea water. Corrosion is an issue to contend with in space, but not nearly to the degree that the ocean provides.

2) It's easier to perform gas exchange than it is to remove liquids. As far as this aspect goes, it would be easier to build in space (or on another planet) than it would be to build underneath the ocean.

3) Depending on how deep you go in the ocean and depending on what planet you're comparing it to, you have to contend with a lot more pressure in the ocean than you would in space (on another planet).

My main concern with colonizing other planets is the issue of supplies. The colonization that took place in the 1400's (and earlier and later) involved sending people off with supplies for the trip, but once they reached their destination they could become self-sufficient. There were animals to hunt, plants to harvest and grow, and wood to build with. If we send people off to a barren planet they'll be highly reliant on supplies from Earth to sustain themselves and to expand their operations.

Perhaps I'm lacking in creativity, but I'd think it would be better if we sent some of our plant life to other planets to "soften it up" and prepare it for humans. Capture some ice comets and divert them to the planet if water isn't readily apparent, and then seed the planet with desirable plant species.

I agree with the idea. Instead of sending humans there, send some alternative first, plant would be a good one. Atleast if efforts had been made and the plant continue to grow, then we can say that a human exploration might be a good idea as well.

[Ithekro]

Would need someone their to tend the plants. While there are robots in agriculture it still uses a lot of human labor and tending despite the amount of automation. Someone would need to start the process on Mars so that later colonist will have a better place to live.

Some people like challenges that presents. Some just want to be away from Earth. We shall see.

[SummeryDreams]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Would need someone their to tend the plants. While there are robots in agriculture it still uses a lot of human labor and tending despite the amount of automation. Someone would need to start the process on Mars so that later colonist will have a better place to live.

Some people like challenges that presents. Some just want to be away from Earth. We shall see.

If they can secure a way on how to live in that place, then possible. A way home as well by the way.

[Ithekro]

It would take time to do that as well. How much would it take to build a craft that can liftoff the surface of Mars to Martian orbit? From there it would need to pickup a ship to Earth. It will take a few months to a year or so to get from one planet to the other presently. So while it isn't impossible to return to Earth, it is unlikely in case of emergency that one would make it in time. Though if something happened, it would not be the first colony to dissapear in history.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by SummeryDreams

If they can secure a way on how to live in that place, then possible. A way home as well by the way.

When the lunar team first went to the moon they didn't expect to be able to come home.

Or even land safely on the moon. Hence it is a "giant leap for mankind", considering the risks.

[SummeryDreams]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

When the lunar team first went to the moon they didn't expect to be able to come home.

Or even land safely on the moon. Hence it is a "giant leap for mankind", considering the risks.

They didn't expect it considering the difficulty of the mission, but they do have a way on coming back. That thing in Mars on the other hand has not, so it's a 100% sure they aren't coming back, atleast that's for now. If they can secure a way home, atleast will give them a 50/50 chance, then I guess that pretty much is a very good must see mission.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by SummeryDreams

They didn't expect it considering the difficulty of the mission, but they do have a way on coming back. That thing in Mars on the other hand has not, so it's a 100% sure they aren't coming back, atleast that's for now. If they can secure a way home, atleast will give them a 50/50 chance, then I guess that pretty much is a very good must see mission.

What is your point then? The people going to Mars know they are not coming back, and my example of the Lunar Mission is about mission risk and adaptibility, based on core objective. I don't know if we are on the same page or not because what it seems to me is that you are just beating around the bush about the nature of the mission, which in your purview is a "needless sacrifice of life".

[erneiz_hyde]

To be fair though, it's not a completely unreasonable position to be in. We have heard and read stories about how ugly unrestrained science can be. The line is always arbitrary regarding these things.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

To be fair though, it's not a completely unreasonable position to be in. We have heard and read stories about how ugly unrestrained science can be. The line is always arbitrary regarding these things.

This isn't about unrestrained science, in fact I fail to see what is so "unrestrained" about this trip. This is about the spirit of exploration; besides this is entirely voluntary and doesn't put any bystanders at risk.

The pioneers of the New World didn't bring back new discoveries by roving about the same seasonal hunting spots. The Oregon Trail and the Silk Road aren't mapped by GPS. People disappear travelling along the way, and we as the later generations of humanity can serve in the memory of their spirit by pushing frontiers, not sit around and wait for discoveries to make things 100% easy and safe.

Necessity is the mother of invention. How can we invent something when there is no problem to create something necessary for it?

[SummeryDreams]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

What is your point then? The people going to Mars know they are not coming back, and my example of the Lunar Mission is about mission risk and adaptibility, based on core objective. I don't know if we are on the same page or not because what it seems to me is that you are just beating around the bush about the nature of the mission, which in your purview is a "needless sacrifice of life".

My point is to know more about Mars, make a definite study that will convince people that it's not a wasteland or something that people can't survive. What I mean is, they should see to it that atleast it's habitable in a way that they won't be needing Earth resources such as food and water. We are talking about people that will live in a place wherein life is impossible (atleast as of this moment). What's the purpose of sending them there (considering they are about to live there) if they can't even survive there without the aid of Earth resources? We are talking about a planet wherein life is IMPOSSIBLE. If your point is exploration, or anything that is a stepping stone? Man, the air alone is unbreathable, no water, no food. What's the plan then? Ask resources from Earth?

[Anh_Minh]

Mars is uninhabitable. We KNOW that. It's not going to magically turn inhabitable. That's why we have to send people to build the things necessary to support human life there. What's so hard to understand?

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Mars is uninhabitable. We KNOW that. It's not going to magically turn inhabitable. That's why we have to send people to build the things necessary to support human life there. What's so hard to understand?

The "Why can't we use robots until analysis is complete?" part. *runs*

[SummeryDreams]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Mars is uninhabitable. We KNOW that. It's not going to magically turn inhabitable. That's why we have to send people to build the things necessary to support human life there. What's so hard to understand?

haha. You will cultivate crops, make water, and produce oxygen there? I believe that's not their original plan. Their plan is sending people there for explorations, and not make this kind of imagination. They will send people to know more about Mars, to discover more that a machine can't do, not sending people to build stuffs there for human survival because there aren't any technology capable of doing that.

[Kimidori]

Originally Posted by SummeryDreams

My point is to know more about Mars, make a definite study that will convince people that it's not a wasteland or something that people can't survive. What I mean is, they should see to it that atleast it's habitable in a way that they won't be needing Earth resources such as food and water. We are talking about people that will live in a place wherein life is impossible (atleast as of this moment). What's the purpose of sending them there (considering they are about to live there) if they can't even survive there without the aid of Earth resources? We are talking about a planet wherein life is IMPOSSIBLE. If your point is exploration, or anything that is a stepping stone? Man, the air alone is unbreathable, no water, no food. What's the plan then? Ask resources from Earth?

with a bunch of machine people sent to Mars we have already know most there is to know about Mars, not only the surface but even about the already dead core of the planet. (no magnetic field)

and you should watch this vid first.

it tell you about their motivation, and also how they plan to send machine to build the settlement first THEN send human there.

about self-sustaining, quote from Mars One website.

Within the settlement are inflatable components which contain bedrooms, working areas, a living room and a 'plant production unit', where they will grow greenery. They will also be able to shower as normal, prepare fresh food (that they themselves grew and harvested) in the kitchen, wear regular clothes, and, in essence, lead typical day-to-day lives.

and just in case, there are water on Mars in ice from, they just need to de-frost it to drink.

and they send people their to LIVE their entire life on it, or in other word colonize, not explore and die.

full quote from their website

Life on Mars

Once they arrive on Mars, the astronauts will begin making use of their relatively spacious living units; over 50 m2 per person, and a total of more than 200 m2 combined interior space.

Within the settlement are inflatable components which contain bedrooms, working areas, a living room and a 'plant production unit', where they will grow greenery. They will also be able to shower as normal, prepare fresh food (that they themselves grew and harvested) in the kitchen, wear regular clothes, and, in essence, lead typical day-to-day lives.

If the astronauts leave the settlement, they have to wear a Mars Suit. However, all living spaces are connected by passageways, in order for the astronauts to move freely from one end of the settlement to the other. As the rovers have done much of the heavy construction prior to their arrival, it will not take the astronauts a long time to find routine in their new life, moving into carrying out valuable construction works and research.