AnimeSuki Forums

Judoh · 2010-07-26, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by zRyuu

*huge snip*

Umm... what the hell are you rambling about? Your whole post is just one huge confusing tangent lol.

zRyuu · 2010-07-26, 20:41

Dont need to take it seriously. I kinda just wrote ideas that were on the top of my head at the time with the hints of EP6 that I consider important like the roulette, Beatrice being a pawn, love trial, and Battler's promise. Just a speculation of how things could turn out in the end.

Burkie · 2010-07-27, 07:09

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this as a possibility before, but I was just wondering, is it possible that Beatrice made a logic error with Battler's death in game 4? Just random speculation based on the fact that her eyes and behaviour in 5 were similar to Battler's during his "wedding" with Erika. So then Battler finding the truth at the end of 5 was supposed to release her, but she didn't wait long enough.This is sorta similar to the conversation between Battler and Kanon when Battler gets saved where Kanon says "you did well to endure until today"
And in 5, after Battler finds the truth he says "if I had reached this point even a little sooner-.. I might have been able to save you." He also talks about how he had been making her endure an eternal torture.

Judoh · 2010-07-27, 07:44

No it's not possible. There are no contradictions in what she said and what happened. The reason she's like that is because of concept denial so her "death" was similar to Erika's in a sense, but it's a bit different thanks to the shackle rule keeping her from leaving game 5. If you remember something similar happened to Battler earlier in episode 4 when we found out he wasn't Asumu's son and the thing with his eyes is described in the same way. (although I don't remember getting to see it)

That and it wasn't the final riddle in that episode that did that to her. It was his Blue truth about Nanjo's murder before that did that.

Also I get the impression that there weren't any logic errors in Beato's games, but that she got close to creating some a couple of times. I don't think there was anything like that in episode 4 though.

AjayGhatak · 2010-07-27, 10:51

Has anyone checked out Béatrice de rothschild? She was very very rich, and lived till 1934 or so. she also looks a bit similar to Béatrice from umineko. I wonder if she was the inspiration for this game.

http://fr.academic.ru/dic.nsf/frwiki/252051

zRyuu · 2010-07-27, 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

Also I get the impression that there weren't any logic errors in Beato's games, but that she got close to creating some a couple of times. I don't think there was anything like that in episode 4 though.

Do you think she almost create a logic error in EP3? The scene where Ronove stops her from saying "the servants didnt die in an accident" or something like that.

Judoh · 2010-07-27, 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by zRyuu

Do you think she almost create a logic error in EP3? The scene where Ronove stops her from saying "the servants didnt die in an accident" or something like that.

Yes I've thought about that.

Used Can · 2010-07-27, 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by AjayGhatak

Has anyone checked out Béatrice de rothschild? She was very very rich, and lived till 1934 or so. she also looks a bit similar to Béatrice from umineko. I wonder if she was the inspiration for this game.

http://fr.academic.ru/dic.nsf/frwiki/252051

I'm fairly sure R07 used the name Betarice, due to Beatrice Portinari.

Hell, I even wonder why he didn't use Dante as a name for the MC instead of Battler. Endurance describes him a lot better, in my opinion.

But well, his intentions would probably have been too obvious, had he done that.

cimbrog · 2010-07-27, 13:29

I've been lurking/reading this whole thread since the beginning and was curious about something. (I either I missed this or forgot about it.) Has anyone yet proposed that there was no actual Beatrice in EP2, but rather conspiracy between Rosa and Kyrie?

Oliver · 2010-07-27, 13:34

Not as such. While the idea certainly has merit, what, do you think, supports Kyrie's involvement?

And what is an actual Beatrice but a conspiracy?

Renall · 2010-07-27, 14:26

I would be inclined to believe in the non-existence of Suit Beatrice, except Battler meets her in ep4. Mind you, that doesn't mean Kyrie and Rosa couldn't have known full well who Suit Beatrice was in ep2 and intentionally fed the mystery.

UsagiTenpura · 2010-07-27, 14:35

Yeah the essence of Beatrice Portinari is more an endless inspiration.
Taken in Kinzo's context I even wonder sometimes if Kuwadorian's Beato really existed.

Jan-Poo · 2010-07-27, 14:42

It's hard to imagine how she couldn't exist.

In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human

UsagiTenpura · 2010-07-27, 14:50

I guess I wrote this wrong.
I at least believe Virgilia used to be Beatrice, and she was human. That much is fine.
I'm refering to Kinzo's Beato being a second entity from her.
Alternatively 1967 is 19 years ago and we are told the true territory lord was born 19 years ago.
Beato could've been born in Kuwadorian and that red wouldldn't be broken.

As I said I just "sometimes" wonder about it, but the reasons behind that are...
Well it means Kinzo really forced someone to live alone out there until she died. I'm not saying I think it's impossible, I just don't like it cause it's making Kinzo into a villain, and that's just... too easy.

MetalGearFlaccid · 2010-07-27, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

As I said I just "sometimes" wonder about it, but the reasons behind that are...
Well it means Kinzo really forced someone to live alone out there until she died. I'm not saying I think it's impossible, I just don't like it cause it's making Kinzo into a villain, and that's just... too easy.

I wouldn't put it past...
A certain head of the Ushiromiya family. (Phew, dodged that bullet.)

Oliver · 2010-07-27, 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalGearFlaccid

I wouldn't put it past...
A certain head of the Ushiromiya family. (Phew, dodged that bullet.)

...you know, this logic is precisely why I have that sig at all.

zRyuu · 2010-07-27, 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

I would be inclined to believe in the non-existence of Suit Beatrice, except Battler meets her in ep4. Mind you, that doesn't mean Kyrie and Rosa couldn't have known full well who Suit Beatrice was in ep2 and intentionally fed the mystery.

Suit-Beatrice still reminds me of the way Rosa acts in EP2 and 4. Her thoughts about love and how she calls the servants furniture. Something funny is that Rosa is the human character that has done the most Ahahaha.wav followed by either Kyrie or Maria.

Renall · 2010-07-27, 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

As I said I just "sometimes" wonder about it, but the reasons behind that are...
Well it means Kinzo really forced someone to live alone out there until she died. I'm not saying I think it's impossible, I just don't like it cause it's making Kinzo into a villain, and that's just... too easy.

Surely if we believe Beatrice had her reasons, or Shannon/Kanon their reasons, or the killer his/her reason, we can believe Kinzo had his reasons too.

Kinzo being a really awful guy seems remote from a literary standpoint. The main reason is that, as far as we know, Kinzo died relatively peacefully. Let's say it's true that Kinzo kept Beatrice-1967 imprisoned her whole life and so forth. He'd never really face any punishment for it. He'd just... get away with it. If indeed he is already dead, and he wasn't actually killed by anyone, he pretty much has gotten away with all the crazy and terrible things that have been ascribed to him over time.

That would seem a bit unsatisfying, don't you think? Especially if the Rokkenjima Incident erases any chance of that information getting out and tarnishing his reputation posthumously... as if he'd care.

UsagiTenpura · 2010-07-27, 16:10

Well I guess there's precedent to people getting away with awful things in Ryukishi's work.
If we compare Oryou with Kinzo for instance.

Renall · 2010-07-27, 16:20

If Kinzo were really as bad as he seemed, I think we'd have more concrete evidence of his misdeeds than what we've been given. The 1967 scenes are so obviously separated from context that we know something unsaid is going on there. It could be something really awful, but it could just as easily be something else entirely.

2010-07-26, 20:41	Link #14642
zRyuu Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	Dont need to take it seriously. I kinda just wrote ideas that were on the top of my head at the time with the hints of EP6 that I consider important like the roulette, Beatrice being a pawn, love trial, and Battler's promise. Just a speculation of how things could turn out in the end. Last edited by zRyuu; 2010-07-27 at 01:06.

2010-07-27, 07:44	Link #14644
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	No it's not possible. There are no contradictions in what she said and what happened. The reason she's like that is because of concept denial so her "death" was similar to Erika's in a sense, but it's a bit different thanks to the shackle rule keeping her from leaving game 5. If you remember something similar happened to Battler earlier in episode 4 when we found out he wasn't Asumu's son and the thing with his eyes is described in the same way. (although I don't remember getting to see it) That and it wasn't the final riddle in that episode that did that to her. It was his Blue truth about Nanjo's murder before that did that. Also I get the impression that there weren't any logic errors in Beato's games, but that she got close to creating some a couple of times. I don't think there was anything like that in episode 4 though. __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:" Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-27 at 07:56.

2010-07-27, 14:26	Link #14651
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	I would be inclined to believe in the non-existence of Suit Beatrice, except Battler meets her in ep4. Mind you, that doesn't mean Kyrie and Rosa couldn't have known full well who Suit Beatrice was in ep2 and intentionally fed the mystery. __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error

2010-07-27, 14:42	Link #14653
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	It's hard to imagine how she couldn't exist. In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human __________________

2010-07-27, 16:20	Link #14660
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	If Kinzo were really as bad as he seemed, I think we'd have more concrete evidence of his misdeeds than what we've been given. The 1967 scenes are so obviously separated from context that we know something unsaid is going on there. It could be something really awful, but it could just as easily be something else entirely. __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error

2010-07-27, 07:09	Link #14643
Burkie Sea Bear Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ireland Age: 30	I don't know if anyone has mentioned this as a possibility before, but I was just wondering, is it possible that Beatrice made a logic error with Battler's death in game 4? Just random speculation based on the fact that her eyes and behaviour in 5 were similar to Battler's during his "wedding" with Erika. So then Battler finding the truth at the end of 5 was supposed to release her, but she didn't wait long enough.This is sorta similar to the conversation between Battler and Kanon when Battler gets saved where Kanon says "you did well to endure until today" And in 5, after Battler finds the truth he says "if I had reached this point even a little sooner-.. I might have been able to save you." He also talks about how he had been making her endure an eternal torture.

2010-07-27, 10:51	Link #14645
AjayGhatak Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2010	Has anyone checked out Béatrice de rothschild? She was very very rich, and lived till 1934 or so. she also looks a bit similar to Béatrice from umineko. I wonder if she was the inspiration for this game. http://fr.academic.ru/dic.nsf/frwiki/252051

2010-07-27, 13:29	Link #14649
cimbrog Junior Member Join Date: May 2010	I've been lurking/reading this whole thread since the beginning and was curious about something. (I either I missed this or forgot about it.) Has anyone yet proposed that there was no actual Beatrice in EP2, but rather conspiracy between Rosa and Kyrie?

2010-07-27, 14:35	Link #14652
UsagiTenpura Artist Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Yesterday!	Yeah the essence of Beatrice Portinari is more an endless inspiration. Taken in Kinzo's context I even wonder sometimes if Kuwadorian's Beato really existed.

2010-07-27, 14:50	Link #14654
UsagiTenpura Artist Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Yesterday!	I guess I wrote this wrong. I at least believe Virgilia used to be Beatrice, and she was human. That much is fine. I'm refering to Kinzo's Beato being a second entity from her. Alternatively 1967 is 19 years ago and we are told the true territory lord was born 19 years ago. Beato could've been born in Kuwadorian and that red wouldldn't be broken. As I said I just "sometimes" wonder about it, but the reasons behind that are... Well it means Kinzo really forced someone to live alone out there until she died. I'm not saying I think it's impossible, I just don't like it cause it's making Kinzo into a villain, and that's just... too easy.

2010-07-27, 16:10	Link #14659
UsagiTenpura Artist Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Yesterday!	Well I guess there's precedent to people getting away with awful things in Ryukishi's work. If we compare Oryou with Kinzo for instance.