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hooliganj · 2004-11-06, 15:13

Now I'm starting to suspect deliberate cluelessness...

The line that Johan underlined in the book was the trigger to the suicide. Farren was already a mess, the fake Margot talked about how nervous he was and how the 'other boy' was the one who did all the talking, and the psychologist talked about how he didn't look like someone who was prone to that sort of deception. If we accept that Farren was an essentially honest person, Johan had to have been very persuasive, probably forcible, to get him to participate in the deception. Then Karl shows up, and Johan no longer needs a patsy. I assume there was more to it, and Johan probably started feeding Farren messages that reinforced his innate morality while at the same time describing how immoral was the plan in which he was participating. Once Farren was pushed far enough, Johan gave him the book, asking him to translate the underlined passage. Back in his room, he figures out the translation, writes it down in his own handwriting, and thanks to Johan's gradual pushing, the guilt is enough to make him kill himself. He was most likely an obsessive neat-freak, since he still put the book back on the shelf, and the fact that it was out of place demonstrates his distraught state of mind at the time.

Johan couldn't come into the room afterwards, since being spotted on the scene after the estimated time of death would have brought instant suspicion on him. Even if he had, he wasn't the one to put the book on the shelf. After all, he would have put it in the right place.

And contrary to what you seem to think, even a good detective isn't going to give the scene more than a glancing look when it was so obviously a suicide. The police had absolutely no reason to suspect a murder, and so they didn't. If you think they did or should have, then I throw the burden of proof to you. Tell us why you think that.

Crowley · 2004-11-06, 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by hooliganj

And contrary to what you seem to think, even a good detective isn't going to give the scene more than a glancing look when it was so obviously a suicide. The police had absolutely no reason to suspect a murder, and so they didn't. If you think they did or should have, then I throw the burden of proof to you. Tell us why you think that.

That's what it all comes down to. We all see that the police didn't give the case much thought; it is explicitly shown to us in the show. With the police behavior shown to us there is nothing left to discuss except maybe that the police didn't do their job right, but that's a personal oppinion.

avmoghe · 2004-11-06, 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by hooliganj

Now I'm starting to suspect deliberate cluelessness...

The line that Johan underlined in the book was the trigger to the suicide. Farren was already a mess, the fake Margot talked about how nervous he was and how the 'other boy' was the one who did all the talking, and the psychologist talked about how he didn't look like someone who was prone to that sort of deception. If we accept that Farren was an essentially honest person, Johan had to have been very persuasive, probably forcible, to get him to participate in the deception. Then Karl shows up, and Johan no longer needs a patsy. I assume there was more to it, and Johan probably started feeding Farren messages that reinforced his innate morality while at the same time describing how immoral was the plan in which he was participating. Once Farren was pushed far enough, Johan gave him the book, asking him to translate the underlined passage. Back in his room, he figures out the translation, writes it down in his own handwriting, and thanks to Johan's gradual pushing, the guilt is enough to make him kill himself. He was most likely an obsessive neat-freak, since he still put the book back on the shelf, and the fact that it was out of place demonstrates his distraught state of mind at the time.

Um.... this isn't deliberate cluelessness.. it is honest disbelief of everything you've said above.

What you're suggesting is miraculous mindreading. Johan just woke up one day, and said

"Ok, I want to kill this Farren guy now. I'll just remind him one more time of how he's been deceiving Schuwald. And after being reminded of what he already knows, he'll just kill himself."

1.) Explain how Johan knew that translating that particular line would cause him to just hang himself? How does he know he wont just stop doing it?

2.) If indeed Johan miraculously knows that Farren will be committing suicide after translating that line, how does Johan know that Farren wont write a detailed suicide note exposing both himself and Johan?

Where exactly is your evidence for proposing this "murder by translation" theory? Johan got him started on this deception scheme.. no doubt about that. But how does that show that Farren's guilt will simply cause him to commit a suicide?

Where is your evidence of Johan's pushing to commit suicide? Where is your evidence of this incredible fragility of Farren?

I certainly need LOT more than what I've seen in the show to even BEGIN considering this theory.

Quote:

And contrary to what you seem to think, even a good detective isn't going to give the scene more than a glancing look when it was so obviously a suicide. The police had absolutely no reason to suspect a murder, and so they didn't. If you think they did or should have, then I throw the burden of proof to you. Tell us why you think that.

The police INSPECT the crime scene to DETERMINE whether a suicide or murder has taken place. If they find anything out of place, or odd, they look into it and see if it contains any clues.

What part of the above do you want me to prove? The fact that the police inspect the crime scene to determine whether a murder or a suicide has taken place? Or the fact that if the police look into an odd fact to see if it reveals any clues?

Crowley · 2004-11-06, 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by avmoghe

The police INSPECT the crime scene to DETERMINE whether a suicide or murder has taken place. If they find anything out of place, or odd, they look into it and see if it contains any clues.
What part of the above do you want me to prove? The fact that the police inspect the crime scene to determine whether a murder or a suicide has taken place? Or the fact that if the police look into an odd fact to see if it reveals any clues?

The police did not search like that though. From their point of view it was an obvious suicide, so they went on to solve more pressing cases, instead of wasting time on some suicide. We know this for a fact from encounter Richard had with his old colleague. Maybe this isn't an accurate portrayal of police, but it's what happened in the show; there is nothing to discuss.

hooliganj · 2004-11-07, 02:16

avmoghe: At this point it's pretty clear that that's what happened. If you aren't willing to accept this 'theory', then you aren't willing to accept the truth, about this event or about Johan in general. I won't argue the matter any further, since we're headed for spoiler territory here.

Crowley: That is a pretty accurate portrayal of how police work a crime scene. Ideally they should chase down every clue, but in reality if they don't find anything to merit a more detailed investigation, then they don't look for it. It isn't a miracle that they didn't spot the book, no normal person would have thought about reading through it just because it's out of place. It says more about Richard's ability as a detective that he's able to put the clues together like he did.

avmoghe · 2004-11-07, 04:02

I certainly wont accept that Johan can accurately predict that a young man with his whole life ahead of him will commit suicide when reminded once more of something he already knows.

At least, not until I see evidence that Farren was really that incredibly fragile/impressionable. Certainly not until I see the reason why Farren thought he deserved death for a crime far less serious than murder.

This show is supposed to be realistic (or, as realistic as any enjoyable story can get) from all accounts I've heard, and I expect nothing less from it.

At any rate, thanks for stopping before we get into spoiler territory.

2004-11-06, 15:13	Link #21
hooliganj Team Player Join Date: Apr 2004	Now I'm starting to suspect deliberate cluelessness... The line that Johan underlined in the book was the trigger to the suicide. Farren was already a mess, the fake Margot talked about how nervous he was and how the 'other boy' was the one who did all the talking, and the psychologist talked about how he didn't look like someone who was prone to that sort of deception. If we accept that Farren was an essentially honest person, Johan had to have been very persuasive, probably forcible, to get him to participate in the deception. Then Karl shows up, and Johan no longer needs a patsy. I assume there was more to it, and Johan probably started feeding Farren messages that reinforced his innate morality while at the same time describing how immoral was the plan in which he was participating. Once Farren was pushed far enough, Johan gave him the book, asking him to translate the underlined passage. Back in his room, he figures out the translation, writes it down in his own handwriting, and thanks to Johan's gradual pushing, the guilt is enough to make him kill himself. He was most likely an obsessive neat-freak, since he still put the book back on the shelf, and the fact that it was out of place demonstrates his distraught state of mind at the time. Johan couldn't come into the room afterwards, since being spotted on the scene after the estimated time of death would have brought instant suspicion on him. Even if he had, he wasn't the one to put the book on the shelf. After all, he would have put it in the right place. And contrary to what you seem to think, even a good detective isn't going to give the scene more than a glancing look when it was so obviously a suicide. The police had absolutely no reason to suspect a murder, and so they didn't. If you think they did or should have, then I throw the burden of proof to you. Tell us why you think that.

2004-11-07, 02:16	Link #25
hooliganj Team Player Join Date: Apr 2004	avmoghe: At this point it's pretty clear that that's what happened. If you aren't willing to accept this 'theory', then you aren't willing to accept the truth, about this event or about Johan in general. I won't argue the matter any further, since we're headed for spoiler territory here. Crowley: That is a pretty accurate portrayal of how police work a crime scene. Ideally they should chase down every clue, but in reality if they don't find anything to merit a more detailed investigation, then they don't look for it. It isn't a miracle that they didn't spot the book, no normal person would have thought about reading through it just because it's out of place. It says more about Richard's ability as a detective that he's able to put the clues together like he did.

2004-11-07, 04:02	Link #26
avmoghe Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004	I certainly wont accept that Johan can accurately predict that a young man with his whole life ahead of him will commit suicide when reminded once more of something he already knows. At least, not until I see evidence that Farren was really that incredibly fragile/impressionable. Certainly not until I see the reason why Farren thought he deserved death for a crime far less serious than murder. This show is supposed to be realistic (or, as realistic as any enjoyable story can get) from all accounts I've heard, and I expect nothing less from it. At any rate, thanks for stopping before we get into spoiler territory.