2009-05-24, 01:15 | Link #41 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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To some extent, the incident was simply a request for the government to do their job properly... it was really fairly spontaneous (group gathering for the passing away of a popular leader) and spur-of-the-moment planning. They really didn't think the government would send in official thugs (which points more to their naivety).
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2009-05-24, 01:23 | Link #42 | ||||
Good-Natured Asshole.
Join Date: May 2007
Age: 34
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Watch the video playlist on the first page. All of it. Quote:
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2009-05-24, 01:32 | Link #43 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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"Harmony" seems to be the driving word. A sense of order that trumps all else (even grieving relatives after incidents and disasters). Unfortunately, that button is pressed so hard that it means they're not addressing systemic problems of greed and corruption amongst their mid-level and local officials.
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2009-05-24, 01:40 | Link #44 | |
A Priori Impossibility
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Age: 33
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And, to tie it back to the topic, I think the amount of political dissent in China remains among intellectuals. Yes, you have people who are aware that their government may not provide as much "freedom" as other countries in the general populace, but there are people struggling to make ends meet for their families, and China's continued growth economically will be of the utmost importance. |
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2009-05-24, 01:57 | Link #45 | |
✘˵╹◡╹˶✘
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Australia
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If it's annoying for you seeing people call CCP=China. Then please explain it more so we can avoid that in future discussion Back to the main point, I understand what you say perfectly. But all that "even though China might be more successful today if more political freedom had been allowed" was just all part of theory/assumption since it didn't happen or hasn't happened yet. However the degrade within Russian society in such a "political freedom"(whether it's a fail version or not) in the same timeline really give CCP a brilliant propaganda to use, aren't they? Image a young Chinese discovered the Tiananmen incident, but think that if the army didn't rush up, they would have followed the Russian step. Of course by then he will think: what CCP did was justified. He would even think that the government gave out "hard but precise" decision when sacrificing the "selfish" requests of some youngster and save their nation (or something like that). People tend to simplify the problem and relate it to similar case whether they are not sure about something. It's normal in politic
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2009-05-24, 02:28 | Link #46 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land of the rising sun
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The only beef I have with PRC is the aftermath of Tiananmen.
This is my personal opinion but, I believe CCP in order to deflect further riots from the younger generation, intensified the anti-Japan sentiment education which continues to this day resulting to the present hostility towards Japan. I know there were sentiments against Japan before the 90's but nothing at the same level we see now. Japan provided about 60% of the entire ODA mainly in low interest loans towards PRC which was instrumental in modernization of present PRC but not many knew this fact until recently. NO I am not asking for armful of gratitude nor a Christmas card but can't the general populous of mainland China simmer down and stop burning Japanese flags. I recently read about a mother and daughter visiting a college in China during the Cherry blossom season wearing a Kimono only to be driven away by angry students of that college yelling names. It's wrong, annoying and frightful at the same time sending the wrong message in the name of citizenship diplomacy. |
2009-05-24, 03:38 | Link #47 | |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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I thought it was the USSR who deviated from Stalinism under Khrushchev, which drew Mao's ire. While he respected Stalin, after Stalin's death, he thought that he, and China, should be the new standard bearer of communism.
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Last edited by yezhanquan; 2009-05-24 at 03:56. |
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2009-05-24, 07:59 | Link #48 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Take a look at this site http://www.beijingforum.org/en/Index.asp and read this http://www.beijingforum.org/en/ShowA...?ArticleID=982 To me, it screams of propaganda and cover-up. No wonder the Chinese netizens' "grass mud horse to the river crabs". P.S For those of you who are still judging China as a hive-mind state, or still don't understand what I am referring to, look at this : Spoiler for NSFW : Coarse Language:
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2009-05-24, 08:24 | Link #49 | |
Bearly Legal
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Unfortunately, Japan and it's bloody history during the WW2 made them a perfect target. Other countries have been the target of their scorn as well especially during the Olympic where many country have criticized CCP over their handling of the Tibet situation and the nationalist lash back on them.
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2009-05-24, 08:32 | Link #50 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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Lest we forget, China is slightly smaller than the USA, but has at least 3 times the population, scattered along the length and breath of this nation. Throughout its history, there were monarchs who tried to dictate ideology; all failed in the end, because it simply cannot be done. Behind closed doors, who knows what the people are really up to.
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2009-05-24, 09:07 | Link #51 | |
Good-Natured Asshole.
Join Date: May 2007
Age: 34
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2009-05-24, 18:01 | Link #52 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: PMB Headquarters
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In terms of providing low interest loans towards the PRC, I believe that their people are taking it the wrong way, as though we owe them money even though it is done out of goodwill. Unfortunately, these people are pretty much blinded by their own ambitions and anger to not see it as such and as otherwise. Personally, I think the government should stop handing out low interest loans as that it doesn't benefit the nation any better at all. First of all, people in China are getting the wrong idea of the intention of these low-interest loan. Secondly, they are not being very honest and transparent of their military intentions and expansions. Thus, it makes absolutely no sense as to why the government is still being so kind when PRC is not just not an ally but not even a friendly nation to begin with. I find it somewhat strange.. Quote:
Perhaps, it wasn't a rebellion but merely a bunch of kids thinking of negotiating with the Oda clan as a merely a game or drama in which the results were unexpected in their case but that was only a matter of foolishness. In fact, it is possibly that the ones who started this foolishness wasn't taking it very seriously which was why they all got killed so quickly. If they had taken the issue seriously, they would had sent better representatives. In fact, if the remnants of the foolish victims of tyranny had taken it more seriously, they had a perfect opportunity during the Olympics in which the world started a mass movement that was picking up quite a pace and since China had on their end had taken the steps that they usually do made it a plus on the ones performing the mass movement. Tibet was under an invasion in which people were slaughtered by rogues disguising as soldiers of justice, while the Uyghur region was also in quite a fix in which a revolt broke out. At the same time, the ordinary civilians such as farmers who had their lands taken away and not getting compensated at all, adding to the roster would be the non-profit organization Falun Gong who also have a huge number of members could probably stir some real deal up. If only they were actually as serious as they claim and that they would fight alongside each other with one goal and objective, they would have already succeeded and PRC would no longer exist this day. Thus, these people who are seeking the support and aid from other nations do not deserve any because they toss away a perfect opportunity and are not the slightest serious about it at all. Why should the world even care about these fools? Why should the world provide financial support to them? More importantly, if these fools had actually seized the opportunity to create a new nation, a democratic one. I am sure regional stability would definitely be ensured and that the global economic crisis would also be avoided since one of the major factors of the problem wouldn't even exist in the first place. North Korea would also not dare to defy peace and prosperity, stirring up some serious issues right now. In fact, North Korea wouldn't even dare go back on their words of closing down Yongbyon, stopping all missile and nuclear activities. The world will be a lot more peaceful. |
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2009-05-25, 00:23 | Link #54 | |
Good-Natured Asshole.
Join Date: May 2007
Age: 34
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Nobody has a clear cut idea about "what happens after" when these things begin. They go in over their heads, and by the time the crap hits the fan it'd be too late to even wish they'd done better. I'd agree with you that this is why you're supposed to go the whole nine yards with these things so that nobody gets to control what the "what happens after" turns out to be. Also, the Olympics had the popular support. Nobody's going to listen to anything else. 2008 was the one and only time China will probably ever get the Olympics, and they'll hear no less of it. Try getting as far as mentioning a rebellion. You have no idea how people regulate communications in China, do you? It's near impossible to get a gathering of more than a few dozen people without requiring a permit, which they'll deny, and there's always the Great Firewall of China. It doesn't just block. It's supposed to monitor. That's the part that they don't tell you. Also, 1.5 million internal police troops. Have fun. Put away your Zero avatar. I'm not sure you're trolling or not by the end of that post, because your wishes are getting delusional. "Stir some real deal up"? Talk to me again when you have a detailed, timed plan to get over 300 million people to support you, and destroy the Chinese army at the same time. You don't get Knightmares. |
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2009-05-25, 04:52 | Link #55 |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Chill out man. He might have his reasons for not wanting to see such. Sometimes opinions do not need to come supported because it makes logic all by itself, we just have to find that logic.
Regarding the permits and domestic surveillance you have mentioned, it is possible to evade all of the "watchers", just have to find a way. Otherwise, how do you think is it possible to gather enough people to be massacred at Tiananmen anyway? Who knows, they might be even passing around messages in cakes. I guess the massacre could be an analogous to a really pissed and angry parent that killed his/her own child. Nobody wants to happen but circumstances dictate so. Of course, the parent would try to deny it all to both himself and others, but deep inside he/she is guilty of the crime. I am not sure about others, but I feel that we should just give the credit for the guilt, forget about it, and move on. IF the members of CCP does feel any at all (I know the tank commander did. He refused to steamroll that guy).
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2009-05-25, 05:34 | Link #56 |
Bearly Legal
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Every country has their own skeleton in the closet. While it is a terrible event, i think people are overly harsh on it. Riots that turned violent are dime a dozen all over the world and history. The current leaders of China belongs to the old guards that still believe they can control everything however, the upcoming generation will be much different and more liberal, bred on the fruits of capitalism.
In any case, the records of this event is merely tip of the iceberg of the atrocities that have occured in China's dark age. Bet there's plenty more prior to the age of digital communication that have been hidden by the CCP. Any reform in China will occur gradually and internally. There are many chinese students pursuing their education abroad and with their return to China (or not), they will bring ideas and culture. China might be able to censor the internet now but they won't be able to keep it up forever without closing it's own border. footnote, the speech given by Zhao Ziyang to the students during the incident is quite something. Too bad the whole still turned ugly. Spoiler for to save space:
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Last edited by Jazzrat; 2009-05-25 at 06:35. |
2009-05-25, 06:42 | Link #57 | |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Imperial Manila, Philippines
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On another note, what keeps "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" alive and well is not its inherent value, but the political force and the legal structures supporting it. |
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2009-05-25, 07:52 | Link #58 | |
Bearly Legal
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Democracy without proper implementation and people's empowerment are merely doomed to failure and corruption. It only comes after the people are fed, clothed and educated. Despite all their vast improvement in economy, many are still living in poverty let alone educated. However, the drive for economy and technology will push the government to educate it's people to provide the required manpower. This in turn empowers the people which in my opinion will drive the demand for democracy. Afterall, we are greedy, with our basic need provided, we will ask for more. China today is a lot more receptive to the outside world than it is before. While it may or may not embrace democracy in the future, it's certainly improving on the people's welfare as a whole. While not perfect, at the very least they are no longer in the dark age.
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2009-05-25, 08:30 | Link #60 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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1 a tragedy, a million a statistic is how I see it. China can do with less people, but it's like a tumour. After all the deaths the last century threw at this nation, the numbers just keep on growing.
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