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Old 2010-01-04, 18:21   Link #4981
Chii Kei
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Aha, oh wow, it's become utter chaos in here. XD Been fun reading through all the theories though. It's pretty incredible to think so many people join up over Ryu's work.

Quote:
Have they announce what Battler's sin officially was/is and the answer to Beato's riddle of Battler's death but there being no one on the island?
I dont know about the sin, but if I'm not mistaken (and I probably am) it has something to do with a bomb? I think one of the other posters might be able to flesh out on the riddle, though.
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Old 2010-01-04, 18:26   Link #4982
supertonia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chii Kei View Post
Aha, oh wow, it's become utter chaos in here. XD Been fun reading through all the theories though. It's pretty incredible to think so many people join up over Ryu's work.



I dont know about the sin, but if I'm not mistaken (and I probably am) it has something to do with a bomb? I think one of the other posters might be able to flesh out on the riddle, though.
I am very interested to why you came to the conclusion could you please tell me a little bit more(even if the promise is confirmed)
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Old 2010-01-04, 18:31   Link #4983
Chii Kei
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Originally Posted by supertonia View Post
I am very interested to why you came to the conclusion could you please tell me a little bit more(even if the promise is confirmed)
Ah, sorry! I should have been a bit more specific. I know nothing about the sin, but I've read people discussing that the riddle to do with Battler being the only one left on the island alive (EP4) and yet still dying being bomb related. I would elaborate, but I'd just be recalling things others have said, so it's not proactive - nor would I get everything accurate. XD I'm usually a lurker, and there are some very firey people in here so I really wouldn't want to get in anyone's way! >:'
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Old 2010-01-04, 18:40   Link #4984
supertonia
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Originally Posted by Chii Kei View Post
Ah, sorry! I should have been a bit more specific. I know nothing about the sin, but I've read people discussing that the riddle to do with Battler being the only one left on the island alive (EP4) and yet still dying being bomb related. I would elaborate, but I'd just be recalling things others have said, so it's not proactive - nor would I get everything accurate. XD I'm usually a lurker, and there are some very firey people in here so I really wouldn't want to get in anyone's way! >:'
I see but i think you shoudl post your theories ^_^ It's okay if you are not sure of themXD
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Old 2010-01-04, 18:44   Link #4985
Antera Caramichael
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Concerning the titles, it makes everything pretty confusing.
I read previously a theory in which the 17th person riddle could be resolved, the one which supposed that Kanon was dead and Genji transfered the name and task of Kanon to Shanon. It leads to down the number to 16 without Kinzo and by so, when Erika arrives, she is the 17th character.
Well after, I haven't really read Ep6, I am just digging up^^. Was it stated that There are 17 people (no more, no less) people on the island. was applying to all games?
As long as it is not, as well as the Knox rules for Ep1-4, I will continue to think the Sh/Kanon theory useless... This theory of title transfering is good, but it crushes Sh/Kanon theory as it permit it

PS: Talking of digging up: You said Chronotrig, that 34 could have shown a fake scene to Bernkastel... Just can you tell me HOW? Like another said, Erika was present in the room true, which makes that even if Battler point of view can be taken out, Erika is still the detective and by so her only presence prevent fake scenes. It is like you said that all scenes in EP1-4 where Battler was present could have been wrong.
The narrator thing do not work for me because in Ep1-4, 90% of the scenes were Third person omniscient related. Like I said: The narrator is of no importance: It is the presence of the detective which can lead us to the conclusion of authenticity of a scene.
And your justification about the scene in Kinzo's study has already been blown out many times: The game was already over as it was after 00:00 AM and even without that, Battler was completely drunk.
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Old 2010-01-04, 18:49   Link #4986
supertonia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
Concerning the titles, it makes everything pretty confusing.
I read previously a theory in which the 17th person riddle could be resolved, the one which supposed that Kanon was dead and Genji transfered the name and task of Kanon to Shanon. It leads to down the number to 16 without Kinzo and by so, when Erika arrives, she is the 17th character.
Well after, I haven't really read Ep6, I am just digging up^^. Was it stated that There are 17 people (no more, no less) people on the island. was applying to all games?
As long as it is not, as well as the Knox rules for Ep1-4, I will continue to think the Sh/Kanon theory useless... This theory of title transfering is good, but it crushes Sh/Kanon theory as it permit it

PS: Talking of digging up: You said Chronotrig, that 34 could have shown a fake scene to Bernkastel... Just can you tell me HOW? Like another said, Erika was present in the room true, which makes that even if Battler point of view can be taken out, Erika is still the detective and by so her only presence prevent fake scenes. It is like you said that all scenes in EP1-4 where Battler was present could have been wrong.
The narrator thing do not work for me because in Ep1-4, 90% of the scenes were Third person omniscient related. Like I said: The narrator is of no importance: It is the presence of the detective which can lead us to the conclusion of authenticity of a scene.
And your justification about the scene in Kinzo's study has already been blown out many times: The game was already over as it was after 00:00 AM and even without that, Battler was completely drunk.
About the fake scene part do you consider all the scenes shown as furniture killing people true? it's the same XD
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Old 2010-01-04, 18:51   Link #4987
Tsuki Aoi Usagi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chii Kei View Post
Ah, sorry! I should have been a bit more specific. I know nothing about the sin, but I've read people discussing that the riddle to do with Battler being the only one left on the island alive (EP4) and yet still dying being bomb related. I would elaborate, but I'd just be recalling things others have said, so it's not proactive - nor would I get everything accurate. XD I'm usually a lurker, and there are some very firey people in here so I really wouldn't want to get in anyone's way! >:'
A bomb could definitely work out...but it seems a bit too...obvious. In my opinion, I think the riddle is more of a metaphorical versus literal thing. And as for what the answer is...I think it's love or regret. Possibly regret related to some twisted version of love or just a twisted version of love in general.
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Old 2010-01-04, 18:54   Link #4988
Chii Kei
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Originally Posted by supertonia View Post
I see but i think you shoudl post your theories ^_^ It's okay if you are not sure of themXD
Well...it's not very plausible, but from what I've read (And I'd really need someone to confirm this for me) there was an explosion on the island. Even if there wasn't, I think this theory is plausible because the police treated it as an accident and not a murder. Why? If a bomb had gone off, no one would be able to be identified in the way of "brutal murder" - they would see burnt corpses but not much else.
This then leads to ask why and how. Most people came back in response to: "Well you wouldn't put it past Grandfather" ...but like someone else has said, I don't think that's much of a valid response. So, whoever is orchestrating the murders must have set the bombs up previous to the conference - I personally believe that Shanon is a big orchestrator of the murder - and I believe it has been said that while she earns a lot of money, she doesn't spend much of it. So, it becomes possible for her to purchase AND set up the bombs around the island. She, and the rest of the servants know the island well.
Anyway, they would either be remote activated - considering the time period, I doubt it - or set on a timer.
Motive for this would be the theory of the promise Battler made to Shanon, which has been discussed lots in the last 10 pages of the thread, I believe. XD
(Of course, this could apply to the 3 family members that live there, as well - who have more motivate.)

*prays she wont be eaten alive* XD
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Old 2010-01-04, 18:56   Link #4989
Antera Caramichael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supertonia View Post
About the fake scene part do you consider all the scenes shown as furniture killing people true? it's the same XD
Alalala read a little: I said The narrator is of no importance: It is the presence of the detective which can lead us to the conclusion of authenticity of a scene.
If you followed, you should realise that in none of the magic scene Battler was physicaly present.
And of course by detective I mean "Piece Character"!
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Old 2010-01-04, 18:57   Link #4990
Tsuki Aoi Usagi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
Concerning the titles, it makes everything pretty confusing.
I read previously a theory in which the 17th person riddle could be resolved, the one which supposed that Kanon was dead and Genji transfered the name and task of Kanon to Shanon. It leads to down the number to 16 without Kinzo and by so, when Erika arrives, she is the 17th character.
Well after, I haven't really read Ep6, I am just digging up^^. Was it stated that There are 17 people (no more, no less) people on the island. was applying to all games?
As long as it is not, as well as the Knox rules for Ep1-4, I will continue to think the Sh/Kanon theory useless... This theory of title transfering is good, but it crushes Sh/Kanon theory as it permit it

PS: Talking of digging up: You said Chronotrig, that 34 could have shown a fake scene to Bernkastel... Just can you tell me HOW? Like another said, Erika was present in the room true, which makes that even if Battler point of view can be taken out, Erika is still the detective and by so her only presence prevent fake scenes. It is like you said that all scenes in EP1-4 where Battler was present could have been wrong.
The narrator thing do not work for me because in Ep1-4, 90% of the scenes were Third person omniscient related. Like I said: The narrator is of no importance: It is the presence of the detective which can lead us to the conclusion of authenticity of a scene.
And your justification about the scene in Kinzo's study has already been blown out many times: The game was already over as it was after 00:00 AM and even without that, Battler was completely drunk.
But how do we know if Erika truly exist or not? How can she get on the gameboard even though she wasn't there before? I think it's cause she doesn't exist because she is Bern's main piece and can be written into the story and taken out simply because she doesn't exist. But her role as the detective allows her to exist on the gameboard. Similar to the Shkanon theory with the idea of Shannon being Lambda's main piece but still semi-existing if Kanon runs around acting as Shannon part of the time and having her as one of his split personalities.
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Old 2010-01-04, 19:06   Link #4991
Antera Caramichael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuki Aoi Usagi View Post
But how do we know if Erika truly exist or not? How can she get on the gameboard even though she wasn't there before? I think it's cause she doesn't exist because she is Bern's main piece and can be written into the story and taken out simply because she doesn't exist. But her role as the detective allows her to exist on the gameboard. Similar to the Shkanon theory with the idea of Shannon being Lambda's main piece but still semi-existing if Kanon runs around acting as Shannon part of the time and having her as one of his split personalities.

The rules of Ep5 are the following:
==> Furudo Erika is the mysterious 18th person on the island.
==> She is the detective, which role was previous Battler's.
==> She cannot be the culprit.
==> She was not present in the previous games and had until now no influence on them.

By only this, I can support my theory which only requires her to exist in Ep5. She is stated in red, and so her presence was true.
And even if she were to be denied, then Battler is going back to his rôle of detective: Shanon and kanon were present in the same room, End of story.

Edit: Heu... hummm, It was hard to understand what you wanted to mean, so sorry if I said something totaly out of place^^
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Old 2010-01-04, 19:11   Link #4992
Arkwright
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I know this was said before, but let's not use the characters' appearance as hints. I could say that Battler's hair color could mean that both he and Ange have the same mother (Kyrie), but I wouldn't do that in good conscience.

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Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
As far as episode one is concerned:
For Kanon to be alive after his "death", Nanjo alone needs to be part of the conspiracy. This makes this false death the most likely.
For Shannon to be alive after her "death", Hideyoshi and Kanon need to be be part of the conspiracy. This makes this false death the second most likely.
For Hideyoshi to be alive after his "death", Kanon, Genji, Kumasawa and Natsuhi would be need to be part of the conspiracy. This makes this false death the third most likely.
For Eva to be alive after her "death", Kanon, Genji, Kumasawa, Natsuhi and George would need to be part of the conspiracy. In addition to this, Battler, who got a glimpse of the corpse, would have to have misidentified Eva's corpse as dead. This is difficult due to the fact that a stake is sticking out of her forehead. This makes this false death the least likely of the possible false deaths.

No one besides those four could have possibly shot Natsuhi. Do we have any evidence that Natsuhi was lying to Battler about this event?
  • For Kanon, a ton of people saw him right after being attacked. Kumasawa (who followed after Kanon), Natsuhi (who followed after Kumasawa), Genji, and Battler (!). All of those saw him lying in blood in the boiler room. Later on George and Nanjo are described as having carried Kanon to the servants' room. Kumasawa and Jessica went with them, so at least those 4 were there when he "died." While it's possible that he didn't die of the wound, that's a lot of people who would have had to accept a faked chest wound.
  • For Shannon, we do not see this scene right when it's discovered, so it's hard to tell, but it seems likely that Shannon would have been seen by more people than just Hideyoshi and Kanon (probably Nanjo at the least.)
  • For Eva, Battler was never described as looking in the room. Instead, it said he found out what happened when George ran in the room and screamed. Then he is described as putting his back against the wall and crying. He doesn't say anything about the murders, he just says he feels sorry for George. After they saw the first twilight, it seems likely the other cousins didn't want to see any more corpses, so it's probable they didn't look in the room. Also, don't ignore the magic circle hint when you're considering how likely they are, and the structure of the closed room itself - was Shannon hiding under the bed? And before Kanon's death scene, he and Kumasawa heard a door slam in the boiler room. It could be fake, but if we assume they lived through the second twilight, there's a hint for how they got away.

Actually, I think if a theory assumes Shannon = Kanon, then it has to assume Eva or Hideyoshi was still alive after Kanon's death, because there's no other way to explain Battler's observation "The door had been left open a small crack, and it was obvious that someone had left through there in a hurry."
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Old 2010-01-04, 19:20   Link #4993
Tsuki Aoi Usagi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
The rules of Ep5 are the following:
==> Furudo Erika is the mysterious 18th person on the island.
==> She is the detective, which role was previous Battler's.
==> She cannot be the culprit.
==> She was not present in the previous games and had until now no influence on them.

By only this, I can support my theory which only requires her to exist in Ep5. She is stated in red, and so her presence was true.
And even if she were to be denied, then Battler is going back to his rôle of detective: Shanon and kanon were present in the same room, End of story.

Edit: Heu... hummm, It was hard to understand what you wanted to mean, so sorry if I said something totaly out of place^^
But red can still be debatable and worded differently. Erika can still exist, just not physically and as we see her. In other words, she is a metaphoric representation.

Same thing goes for Shkanon theory. Both Shannon and Kanon can still exist, one of them is just not a physical person. "Shannon" could be Kanon trying to act as Shannon because maybe she died before the incident and he can't accept that. Therefore, he creates a split personality as her so she can "exist." Although it's not really her, that makes it possible for both of them being present in the same room while still in the same body. But everyone else just sees it as one person.

If there are exactly 17 people on the island, 18 subtract Kinzo. Then that means there is only 17. Erika could be the representation of something else versus an actual person. Therefore, the amount of people don't change no matter which characters you add or subtract on the gameboard itself and this allows a "Mysterious Person X."
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Old 2010-01-04, 19:25   Link #4994
Chii Kei
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Originally Posted by Tsuki Aoi Usagi View Post
A bomb could definitely work out...but it seems a bit too...obvious. In my opinion, I think the riddle is more of a metaphorical versus literal thing. And as for what the answer is...I think it's love or regret. Possibly regret related to some twisted version of love or just a twisted version of love in general.
Oh, I agree. XD But I thought it was an interesting theory nonetheless. The only other way I could think of that Battler could die being the only person on the island would be suicide - but considering the character resolve he shows in his confrontation with Beatrice and the "I'll get the bastard who did this!" moments after the murders, I'd find that out of character and again, far too obvious.
The only other thing I can think of is Battler = Beatrice, but she says: "I am not you" which kind of makes that theory difficult to run with... unless she was simply being ambigious, and meant, "I am not your personality, but a different one that resides inside you."
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Old 2010-01-04, 19:30   Link #4995
Tsuki Aoi Usagi
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Originally Posted by Chii Kei View Post
Oh, I agree. XD But I thought it was an interesting theory nonetheless. The only other way I could think of that Battler could die being the only person on the island would be suicide - but considering the character resolve he shows in his confrontation with Beatrice and the "I'll get the bastard who did this!" moments after the murders, I'd find that out of character and again, far too obvious.
The only other thing I can think of is Battler = Beatrice, but she says: "I am not you" which kind of makes that theory difficult to run with... unless she was simply being ambigious, and meant, "I am not your personality, but a different one that resides inside you."
Spoiler for EP 6 and what happeneds to piece!Battler on the gameboard:
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Old 2010-01-04, 19:34   Link #4996
Chii Kei
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Originally Posted by Tsuki Aoi Usagi View Post
Spoiler for EP 6 and what happeneds to piece!Battler on the gameboard:
Ahh, well I haven't read EP6 yet, so I'll retract that. XD (Hence why all my theories are EP 1 - 4 related.) Unless piece!Battler's mentality changes on the gameboards of EP5 onwards? Or would that be too wacky to speculate?
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Old 2010-01-04, 19:38   Link #4997
Tsuki Aoi Usagi
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Originally Posted by Chii Kei View Post
Ahh, well I haven't read EP6 yet, so I'll retract that. XD (Hence why all my theories are EP 1 - 4 related.) Unless piece!Battler's mentality changes on the gameboards of EP5 onwards? Or would that be too wacky to speculate?

Spoiler for EP6 stuff:
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Old 2010-01-04, 19:40   Link #4998
Marion
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Umm..

Spoiler for EP 6 major spoiler:
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Old 2010-01-04, 19:45   Link #4999
Chii Kei
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Originally Posted by Tsuki Aoi Usagi View Post
Spoiler for EP6 stuff:
Spoiler for just incase~:
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Old 2010-01-04, 19:50   Link #5000
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Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
Was it stated that There are 17 people (no more, no less) people on the island. was applying to all games?
All that was said was You (Erika) included, there are 17 people. Whether this applies to all the games or not, we do not know. However, for games 1-4 we have: No more than 17 humans exist on this island.
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