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Old 2010-02-08, 23:46   Link #5981
Judoh
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Shkannon was disproved since this red text appeared.




Shannon and Kanon are "victims" and they exist inside the rooms. Therefore that can't be used as a reason to lower the count by one because they both exist.

You can argue that only Kanon's personality exists inside Shannon, but they're still both dead and at this point there isn't a living body for Shkannon to be the culprit.

Edit: Actually if we go by the logic that they faked their deaths and were killed later a single person Culprit theory might work, but I think that this red might confirm Kanon's existence in the island.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-02-09 at 00:01.
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Old 2010-02-08, 23:59   Link #5982
Tyabann
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Doesn't look like it disproves Shkannon to me. All it proves is that both Kanon and Shannon are dead, so they can't be the murderers for Ep3.
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Old 2010-02-09, 00:24   Link #5983
imaginari
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Incorrect my good sir. Nanjo has the weakest alibi because his alibi was a complete lie. Kinzo is dead so Nanjo could not have been playing chess with him.
I knew as soon as I posted that "weakest alibi" was a poor choice of words. I hadn't checked everyone's location before writing. But Kanon was, and I think that he was the only one who was, confirmed to be outdoors for questionable reasons when the meeting could have taken place.

Also, I'm trying not to picture Nanjo in drag.
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Old 2010-02-09, 00:28   Link #5984
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Doesn't look like it disproves Shkannon to me. All it proves is that both Kanon and Shannon are dead, so they can't be the murderers for Ep3.
Isn't the core of the Shkannon theory the idea that Kanon doesn't exist on the island on October of 1986?
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Old 2010-02-09, 00:45   Link #5985
Amegashita
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I thought it was that Kanon was killed/ died before the start of the game.
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Old 2010-02-09, 01:07   Link #5986
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Amegashita View Post
I thought it was that Kanon was killed/ died before the start of the game.
That's not what I keep hearing. I thought it was that since Kanon and Shannon are never in the same room (with Battler around) the conclusion was he doesn't exist on the island in 1986. I don't think the theory said that he had to be dead before the game starts.
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Old 2010-02-09, 01:12   Link #5987
Tjfarmer
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Theres multiple Shkanon theories out there, heres some of them;

Kanon is a split personality of Shannon, and he never existed at all.

Kanon died before October 4th, and Shannon didn't want to shock anyone or (insert reason here) so she lied about his presence everywhere, such as "Kanon went with Genji to Kinzo's study" and so on.

Kanon dies early October 4th (multiple versions of this one) in some arcs, and Shannon tosses his body off the island and the people count drops because of this.

I personally believe in Shannon being an evil bitch who kills Kanon for some reason in some arcs, and then lies about him being on the island, after she possibly disposes of it in a way that it doesn't count towards the people on the island.
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Old 2010-02-09, 01:14   Link #5988
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Isn't the core of the Shkannon theory the idea that Kanon doesn't exist on the island on October of 1986?
Well, first of all, nothing in that red you posted says anything specific about Kanon. Second of all, multiple personalities can exist independent of physical existence.
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Old 2010-02-09, 01:29   Link #5989
LyricalAura
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Considering how much we've raked the Shkannon and Erika Ball theories over the coals here and in the Episode 6 thread, it'd be nice to have a theory wiki or something to summarize all the arguments. Beats me how we'd organize it though.
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Old 2010-02-09, 02:12   Link #5990
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Well, first of all, nothing in that red you posted says anything specific about Kanon. Second of all, multiple personalities can exist independent of physical existence.
Fair enough...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura
Considering how much we've raked the Shkannon and Erika Ball theories over the coals here and in the Episode 6 thread, it'd be nice to have a theory wiki or something to summarize all the arguments. Beats me how we'd organize it though.
I think you could make a section called "theories" and then post various theories and then have sections in there with arguments as to why some people don't beleive those theories and some do.

Although you may have to make separate sections for different theories

like "Single Culprit theories", "Conspiracy theories", "Troll theories", "Beatrice Disguise and title theories", etc
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Old 2010-02-09, 03:03   Link #5991
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To be honest, I really don't think Kinzo is the culprit, I actually don't even believe the Shkanon theory.
What I believe is probably most true is just a simple Shanontrice theory. When ever Shanon is shown to be dead, it is likely the death of her personality and she lives as Beatrice.
Spoiler for My Theory rant:

This is probably going to look like the ramblings of a tired person, that would be dead on.
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Old 2010-02-09, 09:23   Link #5992
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
To be honest, I really don't think Kinzo is the culprit, I actually don't even believe the Shkanon theory.
What I believe is probably most true is just a simple Shanontrice theory. When ever Shanon is shown to be dead, it is likely the death of her personality and she lives as Beatrice.
Spoiler for My Theory rant:

This is probably going to look like the ramblings of a tired person, that would be dead on.
I don't enjoy casting Beato as the murderer, even if it is through Shannon. Now, I do believe that Shannon is Beato, or at least Beato is a second personality of her's created to hold her feelings for Battler. But after reading Episodes 1-5, I've come to think whoever is Beato in the meta-world is not the killer. Out of her love for Battler, she takes up the image of Beatrice, and claims to be the culprit, forcing Battler to challenge her, and in doing so, uncover the true culrprit. Lambda said she made Beato a witch so that Beato could accomplish some goal. I think that goal is to uncover the truth of Rokkenjima to Battler. That's my interpretation of Beato's side of the chessboard.
However, this does contradict the red text, "Because of your sin, people die." If we assume Battler's sin to be the broken promise Shannontrice, then unless another person is killing because Shannon told them this, there's a contradiction.
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Old 2010-02-09, 10:07   Link #5993
theacefrehley
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Pardon my ignorance

Why do you insist in this theory of Kanon = Shannon?

I'm not being ironic or sarcastic here

I just don't understand

Didn't Erika see both at the same time in EP5? In many occasions? And speaking? Wasn't she the detective? I think it wouldn't be allowed for Erika to see them at the same time (being her the detective) if Shannon was disguising as Kanon, or vice-versa, the same way she wouldn't see Kinzo (or gaap, or ronowe, or warugiria), inside the game.

The story is told by the game master, but the detective is a strange body there, and can't be shown things so unreal.

Really...
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Old 2010-02-09, 12:34   Link #5994
luckyssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
The only way for Kanon to have left the room after he entered is if he did so as "Battler". And, if he did so, he must have immediately re-entered in order to reset the chain. Therefore, regardless of whether he is "Battler" or not, Kanon's body was inside the room at the time the logic error occurred.
Well, I guess there are a number of ways that could be possible. As an example:
Spoiler:
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Old 2010-02-09, 12:50   Link #5995
Pinguma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I liked it enough to put it in my signature. As far as Jessica culprit theories go I don't like a lot of them, but yours takes the cake!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post

Your theory is excellent. Well done.
Why thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
I have not read it all yet, but your first twilight is off. You can correct it, though. Rosa had to be the one who unsealed the letter the next day, so probably some time after midnight Rosa unsealed the envelope.
Not entirely sure what you mean, Rosa did undo the seal in the morning the following day, but there is nothing to say that the letter was not open by someone else and resealed. The letter can be resealed over and over. Battler even makes a point of the resealing in episode 2 while Beato can't respond. The culprit could have stolen the key/letter, used the key, resealed, and put it back while everyone is asleep. Nothing is stated in red to disprove this.

Last edited by Pinguma; 2010-02-09 at 15:36.
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Old 2010-02-09, 12:50   Link #5996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amegashita View Post
I thought it was that Kanon was killed/ died before the start of the game.

EP4 red:
Kanon is dead.

Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die.
In short, he was the 9th victim.

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!


So The only way that Kanon = Shannon is possible is if Kanon never existed in the first place.
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Old 2010-02-09, 12:54   Link #5997
Smeckledorf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
I don't enjoy casting Beato as the murderer, even if it is through Shannon. Now, I do believe that Shannon is Beato, or at least Beato is a second personality of her's created to hold her feelings for Battler. But after reading Episodes 1-5, I've come to think whoever is Beato in the meta-world is not the killer. Out of her love for Battler, she takes up the image of Beatrice, and claims to be the culprit, forcing Battler to challenge her, and in doing so, uncover the true culrprit. Lambda said she made Beato a witch so that Beato could accomplish some goal. I think that goal is to uncover the truth of Rokkenjima to Battler. That's my interpretation of Beato's side of the chessboard.
However, this does contradict the red text, "Because of your sin, people die." If we assume Battler's sin to be the broken promise Shannontrice, then unless another person is killing because Shannon told them this, there's a contradiction.
The red states people will die because of your sin. It does not state everyone will die because of your sin. If Shanon is killing because of Battler's sin and she is killed by George then that would mean Battler's sin still caused it. Chain reactions work that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinguma View Post
Not entirely sure what you mean, Rosa did undo the seal in the morning the following day, but there is nothing to say that the letter was not open by someone else and resealed. The letter can be resealed over and over. Battler even makes a point of the resealing in episode 2 while Beato can't respond. The culprit could have stolen the key/letter, used the key, resealed, and put it back while everyone is asleep. Nothing is stated in red to disprove this.
Yes it does say so. In episode 4, I think it was they revisit that part.
Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Well, I guess there are a number of ways that could be possible. As an example:
Spoiler:
Interesting theory, I like it. However, I don't recall any red being said to Battler that states "You cannot be the culprit", so that opens up new windows.

Last edited by Smeckledorf; 2010-02-09 at 13:04.
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Old 2010-02-09, 13:21   Link #5998
Pinguma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Yes it does say so. In episode 4, I think it was they revisit that part.
Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!
Well played. Thanks for pointing it out
If we assume the scene in the chapel with the adults all gathered (+ 'beatrice') the previous night to be true, Rosa could have committed murder and returned, is she the only suspect?

Spoiler for Red Truth regarding the First Twilight:

If you consider all of it, I honestly can't find it to be anyone other than Rosa being responsible or at least related. But, it says 'all were killed by other people' and not 'by another person'. But the last red says 'culprit' so I'm unsure how to take this. There must have been multiple people to commit such a crime within the chapel, no?

Edit: Seems either way I'll have to start thinking more and revise some things!

Last edited by Pinguma; 2010-02-09 at 18:05.
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Old 2010-02-09, 13:49   Link #5999
Renall
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Originally Posted by Blazemaker View Post
EP4 red:
Kanon is dead.

Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die.
In short, he was the 9th victim.

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!


So The only way that Kanon = Shannon is possible is if Kanon never existed in the first place.
I still have a lot of trouble accepting that a personality can "die." It only really makes sense in the context of multiple personalities, where it's merely stupid.

If it's a persona (that is, the person who is Kanon is in disguise or merely pretending to be such a person), it can't die unless the person does. Conceptual existences can't be victimized.
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Old 2010-02-09, 15:28   Link #6000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I still have a lot of trouble accepting that a personality can "die." It only really makes sense in the context of multiple personalities, where it's merely stupid.

If it's a persona (that is, the person who is Kanon is in disguise or merely pretending to be such a person), it can't die unless the person does. Conceptual existences can't be victimized.
I do agree with you. The whole persona thing is too farfetch'd.

In ep1 someone could pull the Shkanon because its never really said when Shannon and Kanon died and if there's really a Shannon body.

But both in ep2 and ep4 its said in red that Kanon is dead while Shannon was still alive and kicking.
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