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Old 2010-03-24, 22:15   Link #7001
Renall
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Developing "Author Theory" further... I do not want to suggest that I subscribe to this theory, and some of the premises are essentially unfounded and entirely subject to interpretation. There will be some ep6 spoilers, but they should be in the spoiler boxes for the most part. Skim this or skip it if you want to avoid them all.
Spoiler for Fundamental Assumptions:
Okay, with that in mind, we have the following questions:
  • What was the deal with Ange-Prime, the one that actually exists?
  • Can we prove temporal lineage between episodes?
  • Are any of the episodes true? Are any close to the truth? If they're not, why aren't they?
  • What did the author of 1-2 want? Who were they?
  • What does the author of 3-6 want? Who is he/she? Does he/she have personal knowledge of what happened in 1986?
  • Who are the Meta-Characters?
  • What about Shkanon, Erika not existing, etc.? Why do those elements appear in the story if it's not really about that?
I can't answer what's up with Ange, but ep3-4 doesn't seem entirely improbable as a discussion of her life in the "present." At least, it's plausible. But as to the others...
Spoiler for Can we demonstrate the episodes are created in sequence?:

Spoiler for Are any of the episodes true?:

Spoiler for If they aren't true, why aren't they?:

Spoiler for Who is the ep1-2 author? What did he/she want?:

Spoiler for Who is the ep3-6 author? What did he/she want? Does he/she have personal knowledge of 1986-Prime?:

Spoiler for Who are the Meta-Characters?:

Ep2 is really problematic however, as it introduces elements that are very odd... or would be less odd in the hands of the ep3-6 writer.
Spoiler for What about Shkanon? Why bring that stuff up if in this theory it doesn't matter?:

Spoiler for What about Erika existing or not existing?:

Spoiler for What about (insert other theory here)?:

Now, a lot of this is a serious stretch, but isn't it fascinating...
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Old 2010-03-24, 22:30   Link #7002
Judoh
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Spoiler for hachijou ?:
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Old 2010-03-24, 22:30   Link #7003
Kylon99
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Now that is a pretty good summary of the Author theory so far. I can't think of anything left out. While this doesn't explain the episodes themselves, it does explain the outer world...
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Old 2010-03-24, 22:32   Link #7004
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Now that is a pretty good summary of the Author theory so far. I can't think of anything left out. While this doesn't explain the episodes themselves, it does explain the outer world...
The inner world is explicable in the sense that if we believe what has been said about the ep3-6 author, he/she has remained consistent and has left the mysteries solvable.
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Old 2010-03-24, 22:39   Link #7005
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Spoiler for hachijou ?:
Hachijou/Featherine is just an author writing about the murders, claiming to know the truth. Ange says that most of the theorists on the Rokkenjima murders actually hate Hachijou, because her stories add in so many fantasy elements that detract from mystery and believe she's being arrogant about proclaiming she knows the truth.
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Old 2010-03-24, 22:44   Link #7006
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Hachijou/Featherine is just an author writing about the murders, claiming to know the truth. Ange says that most of the theorists on the Rokkenjima murders actually hate Hachijou, because her stories add in so many fantasy elements that detract from mystery and believe she's being arrogant about proclaiming she knows the truth.
Spoiler for LOL:
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Old 2010-03-24, 22:49   Link #7007
Kylon99
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Actually, I'm speculating that once we know the truth too we could start writing Umineko fan fiction. So long as the truth is the spine of the story it could be a legitimate Umineko story. I wonder if that was Ryukishi's ultimate goal in the end...

In fact, some people have already started doing so even though they don't know the answers yet. They know enough to try at this point...
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Old 2010-03-24, 22:50   Link #7008
Judoh
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If I could I would want to write a scenario where Battler never comes to the island and the murders still happen. That would be pretty out there and I think it might explain some things about the other characters. I wonder who the detective would be then?
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Old 2010-03-24, 22:55   Link #7009
LyricalAura
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I don't have anything in particular to add at the moment, but thank you for that excellent rundown, Renall. This is fascinating regardless of whether it's true or not.
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Old 2010-03-24, 23:04   Link #7010
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Actually, I'm speculating that once we know the truth too we could start writing Umineko fan fiction. So long as the truth is the spine of the story it could be a legitimate Umineko story. I wonder if that was Ryukishi's ultimate goal in the end...

In fact, some people have already started doing so even though they don't know the answers yet. They know enough to try at this point...
There are a couple places, like the seacats forum, where people are doing a kind of interactive fanfic/roleplaying by running their own witch's chess games. I think I remember seeing some around here a while ago, too, but I don't know what thread they were in.
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Old 2010-03-24, 23:14   Link #7011
Renall
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Writing your own episode, then seeing how it stacks up against the truth at the end, might be kind of an interesting exercise.
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Old 2010-03-24, 23:14   Link #7012
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
There are a couple places, like the seacats forum, where people are doing a kind of interactive fanfic/roleplaying by running their own witch's chess games. I think I remember seeing some around here a while ago, too, but I don't know what thread they were in.
Well I'd like a link to the seacats forum. That sounds really interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Writing your own episode, then seeing how it stacks up against the truth at the end, might be kind of an interesting exercise.
yeah seriously. especially if your making your own reds for that episode too. Beato did say they'd end up playing hundreds of games, but she sort of cut that off in episode 4 when she decided to let Battler kill her.
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Old 2010-03-24, 23:20   Link #7013
luckyssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Now that is a pretty good summary of the Author theory so far. I can't think of anything left out. While this doesn't explain the episodes themselves, it does explain the outer world...
I would just like to say that I think the theory you and Renall made is very interesting. Good job

Something I also thought was interesting was, for the first two stories, the victims of the twilights 2 to 8 were all staked almost exactly according to the epitaph. (assuming that someone would have found Kanon’s corpse in episode 2) The author of the third story and beyond may not view the stake murders as important elements to the story:
  • Episode 3 – two stakes were not used
  • Episode 4 – at least two stakes were not used (Kanon’s corpse was missing again)
  • Episode 5 – only one murder with a stake was shown and the episode ended
  • Episode 6 – no stakes were used in any murder

Now according to Ange’s narration in episode 6, she thought about how her many of her relatives were ruthlessly killed in “banquet”, “alliance”, and “end”. So she read the stories prior to meeting with her:
彼女の最新の偽書、「End」は、その作中で少なくとも親族たちを7人は殺している。いやいや、彼女のこれ までの偽書、「Alliance」や「Banquet」も含めれば、どれだけの親族を、何度、惨たらしい方 法で殺しているやら…。
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Spoiler for EP 6:
I think she did say that at some point but I can’t find it. Could you provide the exact quote where it says 1998 was a continuation of the EP3 storyline? Thank you.
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Old 2010-03-24, 23:30   Link #7014
Judoh
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Quote:
Spoiler for What about (insert other theory here)?:
How about whether or not Battler is really going to be a protagonist at the end of the story? Sometimes the real protagonist ends up being somebody else who doesn't get a lot of character development until later. Like Rika in Higurashi.
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Old 2010-03-24, 23:37   Link #7015
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
How about whether or not Battler is really going to be a protagonist at the end of the story? Sometimes the real protagonist ends up being somebody else who doesn't get a lot of character development until later. Like Rika in Higurashi.
I think that this time Ryu07 changed the villain, from Beatrice to Bernkastel.
Though if Battler were to lose his position as protagonist, I would think it would go to Ange (I thought that would happen in EP4, but...).
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Old 2010-03-24, 23:44   Link #7016
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well I'd like a link to the seacats forum. That sounds really interesting.
http://ib4f.com/board/seacats/

Games are being held in the /gameboard/ board. It's pretty neat, with all the mp3s you can play as you get to the right moments. 8)
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Old 2010-03-24, 23:52   Link #7017
Dlanor .A. Nox
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I have no idea what the hell is going on there...I thought about writing one. Basically it's a double game where Bern is facing off against Beatrice and Lambda is facing Battler two different stories at the same time and you bet your ass confusion ensues lol. Anyways I thought it was interesting but I'm not really into it that much.
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Old 2010-03-25, 00:44   Link #7018
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Spoiler for LOL:
...I swear that wasn't why I did it

Actually, Featherinne is an interesting case. She claims that she only has a theory for the true answer (same as I've done) which she believes to be right, but she also seems to be connected to Hachijo, who is supposed to have written EP3-6.

However, Hachijo never appeared in EP1-4, so she can't be too vitally connected to the overall answer (if we trust what Ryuukishi has said) unless she represents someone else directly. That makes me think that the scenes with Hachijo and future Ange are only Featherinne's guess at what the right "solution" is. If so, then she's actually guessing that the "author theory" or something like it is true. This is the second answer arc, so it's very possible that this is a hint.
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Old 2010-03-25, 00:47   Link #7019
Judoh
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Regarding any and all disguise theories: it is possible to fool people with a disguise some of the time, but it is impossible to fool everyone with a disguise all of the time

In other words if you argue Shkanon or Nanjo = his own granddaughter I will only accept a disguise being involved if you present one or two people who are suspicious of this person acting strangely. Those are my conditions.

Addendum: Besides Battler because he's incompetent.
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Old 2010-03-25, 00:52   Link #7020
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Regarding any and all disguise theories: it is possible to fool people with a disguise some of the time, but it is impossible to fool everyone with a disguise all of the time

In other words if you argue Shkanon or Nanjo = his own granddaughter I will only accept a disguise being involved if you present someone who is suspicious of this person acting strangely. Those are my conditions.
Well, from what we see of EP6, it's possible for the Game Master to choose any story as long as it isn't impossible. So, as long as it was possible to fool everyone at least some of the time, the Game Master can use her power to make that happen all of the time. Of course, a "fair" Game Master wouldn't abuse this privilege.

Even so, yes, I believe there are several situations where certain disguises are seen through to one degree or another.
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