Code Geass R2 - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[blackrider76]

Originally Posted by Dyllani

They could have called his bluff about FLEIJA (assuming he wouldn't kill himself & his sister), and take them both hostage. I guess that might have worked. Have Zero brainwash Prince Schneizel, but I don't know if they'd want to take that chance...

But that's the thing. They'd rather trust some guy who just killed 35 million people than a leader who over countless battles brought them victory one way or another.

idk what more do you want. The evidence is staring at you right in the face. Any less of what the characters did would be irrational on their part.

Thanks for showing me this evidence that is currently staring me in the face.

[ScudFace]

It doesn't change the fact that todo and company played right into their enemies' hands. So what if your leader massacres enemy civilians or goes into lapses of insanity every once in a while? He gets the job done at the end of the day. By betraying zero they're pretty much handed their only chance of victory to schnizel on a plate since without zero they have no strategy and no UFN. Idiots should have waited until after taking back japan before they betrayed zero.

[ApostleOfGod]

Rollo could have just wiped out everyone in that room at the moment when he Geassed him and Lulu's way out of that Storage room, but he didn't... Rollo has the power to be stronger than all.. Tsk tsk.. Should I see this as a flaw, or something that should be the natural course of action?

[Micante]

Originally Posted by ApostleOfGod

Rollo could have just wiped out everyone in that room at the moment when he Geassed him and Lulu's way out of that Storage room, but he didn't... Rollo has the power to be stronger than all.. Tsk tsk.. Should I see this as a flaw, or something that should be the natural course of action?

He was already straining his heart as it is. Trying to go on a killing spree for every person you see while your heart is stopped can't be good for you.

[blackrider76]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

Sorry I'd rather not waste my time teaching someone my perspective when he keeps his eyes and ears closed.

Mudslinging is hardly a way to argue against someone in a civil debate.

[JerryShaw]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

Sorry I'd rather not waste my time teaching someone my perspective when he keeps his eyes and ears closed.

LOL means he lost.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by blackrider76

I'm saying they were putting up an very weak fight, more desperate about Zero coming back. You can't say they weren't panicking their ass off, which is hardly a good state of mind to fight in, shows their utter dependence on Zero. By metaphorically dropping their guns I don't mean they were surrendering, I'm saying their attack was as effective as dropping their weapons and getting shot.

Of course they panicked. They lost their leader when they needed him most. That doesn't make them incompetant. They were going to lose no matter what was done. They tried, and failed. What COULD THEY DO?

Because they were convinced by evidence that they can't even confirm legitimacy of, NOT the word of their own comrade which they in fact doubted.

Except when the did point those guns at him, all he did was pretty much confirm their suspicions. Lelouch could have talked his way out of it. Except he just called them all pawns in his pan and they were finished with him for good at that point. Sorry, what you are saying has no basis really.

I don't see how that makes him any more trustworthy. It's not a matter of whether or not he used it, it's a matter of him having no qualms about ending millions of lives. How much more worthy of life are they in Schneizel's eyes? Not much, perhaps even less.

Except Schneizel made it as a future war deterrent. Not as a weapon to be spammed. Now that it was used, it is just a good threat. And to them, Lelouch was more untrustworthy at that point. Schneizel gave them evidence, and Lelouch was just using them for his own goals. I would believe gathered evidence over a possible threat of a leader any day.

[blackrider76]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Of course they panicked. They lost their leader when they needed him most. That doesn't make them incompetant. They were going to lose no matter what was done. They tried, and failed. What COULD THEY DO?

You have the impression that I was expecting them to accomplish something; I wasn't, it's just their dependence on Zero, as you have pointed out yourself

Originally Posted by Orga777

Because lelouch never gives any god damn details to his plans to his troops? How can anyone set forth a plan they don't know about? Lelouch ran everything like a game. He just barked out orders over the radio. That was it. He never had a true meeting to discuss anything. That isn't the BK's fault. That is Lelouch's.

When they lose someone that is the only one that knows the plan, they are out of luck no matter who is in command after the fact.

Made them completely incompetent. I'm not saying it's their fault or whatnot, I'm simply stating that they are indeed incompetent and disposing of Zero so easily based on some flimsy evidence is indeed a stupid move.

Except when the did point those guns at him, all he did was pretty much confirm their suspicions. Lelouch could have talked his way out of it. Except he just called them all pawns in his pan and they were finished with him for good at that point. Sorry, what you are saying has no basis really.

That scene has nothing to do with what we're talking about; the very fact they brought out Knightmares and pointed their guns at him pretty much means they were already convinced Zero was evil.

Except Schneizel made it as a future war deterrent. Not as a weapon to be spammed. Now that it was used, it is just a good threat. And to them, Lelouch was more untrustworthy at that point. Schneizel gave them evidence, and Lelouch was just using them for his own goals. I would believe gathered evidence over a possible threat of a leader any day.

Again, they don't know that. All they know is that he fired it in the middle of a city and killed a crap load of people.

Yes. He gave them evidence. Unconvincing evidence that could easily be illegitimate and forged for the purpose of deceiving them. This wasn't the case, but again, my point is that they were won over far too easily. Had Schneizel provided more convincing evidence then I wouldn't be arguing this point.

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

Well you can just keep rereading Orga777's posts over and over again because he's been saying the same stuff over and over again and you just keep dismissing it and asking the same questions over and over again.

Ok.

Really, you aren't even contributing anything other than "You're just being blind."

[JesseJamesRocket]

Originally Posted by pcube19622

rolo shouldve killed schneizel using his geass when he was saving zero from OoBK battle ship...

Yep. Kissed him with a bullet right to the forehead.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by blackrider76

Ok.

Really, you aren't even contributing anything other than "You're just being blind."

Fair enough. Sorry. Continue.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by blackrider76

You have the impression that I was expecting them to accomplish something; I wasn't, it's just their dependence on Zero, as you have pointed out yourself

That is fine. but don't call them incompetant. they have been doing a lot while Lelouch was screwing around at Ashford and going emo on a Cult. They don't NEED him any more. They can take care of themselves now since they can actually PLAN THINGS without dealing with Zero who never tells them anything.

Made them completely incompetent. I'm not saying it's their fault or whatnot, I'm simply stating that they are indeed incompetent and disposing of Zero so easily based on some flimsy evidence is indeed a stupid move.

Except they had enough people saying it wasn't flimsy for them to believe it. Once Ougi came out, they can pretty much confirm the evidence.

That scene has nothing to do with what we're talking about; the very fact they brought out Knightmares and pointed their guns at him pretty much means they were already convinced Zero was evil.

Or it was a precautionary measure just in case he uses Geass. They still gave him a chance to talk, and he just called them all pawn. What more do they need once that happened? He also didn't try to deny he had Geass. They had no reason to not drop him after that. No excuses.

Again, they don't know that. All they know is that he fired it in the middle of a city and killed a crap load of people.

Yes. He gave them evidence. Unconvincing evidence that could easily be illegitimate and forged for the purpose of deceiving them. This wasn't the case, but again, my point is that they were won over far too easily. Had Schneizel provided more convincing evidence then I wouldn't be arguing this point.

Um... What other evidence COULD he produce?
He gave them everything and even had a spoken recording of Lelouch. Then Ougi was there to tell them it was all pretty much true that he had Geass and has used people before. I think you are just expecting too much. The series, while amazing, is still an anime in the end. Not everything is super detailed. What they showed should work for the viewer because it WAS all true and they HAD doubts with Zero before, and how he was reacting at the beginning? And then Asahina's testimony? What the hell else did they need to be convinced? It was over for Zero. All that evidence is just too much. You can call it "stupid," but I call it poetic justice. Zero used them to get what he wants. Then they turned around and used him the same way.

[blackrider76]

Originally Posted by Orga777

That is fine. but don't call them incompetant. they have been doing a lot while Lelouch was screwing around at Ashford and going emo on a Cult. They don't NEED him any more. They can take care of themselves now since they can actually PLAN THINGS without dealing with Zero who never tells them anything.

Although they have been organizing treaties and preparing for a battle, it really is only thanks to Zero like I said; and seeing how, again, they were won over so easily with, again, flimsy evidence I can't say I trust in their decision making skills.

Except they had enough people saying it wasn't flimsy for them to believe it. Once Ougi came out, they can pretty much confirm the evidence.

Or it was a precautionary measure just in case he uses Geass. They still gave him a chance to talk, and he just called them all pawn. What more do they need once that happened? He also didn't try to deny he had Geass. They had no reason to not drop him after that. No excuses.

It doesn't matter whether or not they thought it was flimsy, the fact was was that it was flimsy especially for what Schneizel was trying to convince them of. He's using some so-called "top secret" files and a recording that they have no way of confirming whether or not is forged to try to convince them that their leader is an evil villan with mind control powers that will instantly make everyone obey whatever he says. Ougi wasn't exactly backing up his claims either.

If at that point they turned on him I wouldn't be complaining; but they practically already agreed to handing Zero over for Japan; you can't say they weren't already convinced by then based on their reactions.

Um... What other evidence COULD he produce?
He gave them everything and even had a spoken recording of Lelouch. Then Ougi was there to tell them it was all pretty much true that he had Geass and has used people before. I think you are just expecting too much. The series, while amazing, is still an anime in the end. Not everything is super detailed. What they showed should work for the viewer because it WAS all true and they HAD doubts with Zero before, and how he was reacting at the beginning? And then Asahina's testimony? What the hell else did they need to be convinced? It was over for Zero. All that evidence is just too much. You can call it "stupid," but I call it poetic justice. Zero used them to get what he wants. Then they turned around and used him the same way.

Whether or not it was poetic justice isn't what I'm arguing; I didn't find this event surprising at all really, just look at my first post in this topic.

Schneizel's evidence was just, well, too unconvincing for me. Especially considering their technology, a short recording with someone answering "Yes" and "Yes I ordered that" isn't the most difficult thing to reproduce, and the papers really could have been a pile of nonsense.

What else could they have done? An video of an actual instance with Lelouch geassing someone would be convincing. That may be difficult, but perhaps actually telling them more about the geass and pointing out Lelouch's little expedition into the Geass cult instead of "it exists" all the while showing those documents and THEN pointing out very odd behaviors by people would also be better than what actually was presented.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by blackrider76

Although they have been organizing treaties and preparing for a battle, it really is only thanks to Zero like I said; and seeing how, again, they were won over so easily with, again, flimsy evidence I can't say I trust in their decision making skills.

It was thanks to Zero. But unlike in S1, they can take care of themselves now.

It doesn't matter whether or not they thought it was flimsy, the fact was was that it was flimsy especially for what Schneizel was trying to convince them of. He's using some so-called "top secret" files and a recording that they have no way of confirming whether or not is forged to try to convince them that their leader is an evil villan with mind control powers that will instantly make everyone obey whatever he says. Ougi wasn't exactly backing up his claims either.

I just have to disagree here. I don't see the evidence as flimsy as you do at all. The coincidences are just too much to NOT believe.

If at that point they turned on him I wouldn't be complaining; but they practically already agreed to handing Zero over for Japan; you can't say they weren't already convinced by then based on their reactions.

They still gave him a chance to talk. He didn't tell them anything and didn't deny Geass. That put the final nail in the coffin.

Schneizel's evidence was just, well, too unconvincing for me. Especially considering their technology, a short recording with someone answering "Yes" and "Yes I ordered that" isn't the most difficult thing to reproduce, and the papers really could have been a pile of nonsense.

I think you expected WAY too much for an anime then. Even an anime as good as Code Geass needs to be taken with a grain of salt at times. I found it believable how they betrayed him and I don't think the evidence was that flimsy. Adding Asahina's testimony should have shown that he can't be trusted as well. There was just WAY too much evidence and WAY more coincidences.

What else could they have done? An video of an actual instance with Lelouch geassing someone would be convincing. That may be difficult, but perhaps actually telling them more about the geass and pointing out Lelouch's little expedition into the Geass cult instead of "it exists" all the while showing those documents and THEN pointing out very odd behaviors by people would also be better than what actually was presented.

Everyone made connections to the odd behaviors actually. They couldn't get why Guilford or Jeremiah joined them. They didn't get why so many unusual coincidences happened either. Geass explained that. Also, they can't spend forever going over every little detail with Geass. There is WAY too much to get in for only six episodes. It is still an anime that has time constraints. Was it a little rushed? Yeah, but it WORKS.

[KnightWraith]

Just finished watching it.. A pretty good episode if you ask me.. Just shows that Schneizel is a freaking genious.. Can't blame the organization for betraying lelouch after Scheizel pulled out all those evidences along with ohgi's confession. But I still think they needed zero. I mean, I remember episode 7 of R2 where they almost got captured but zero showed up in time to save them. They'll have a hard time now that he's gone IMO.

[Freya]

Hmm well since Q&A thread is a bit dead. I'll ask my question here.

When Rolo is spamming his Geass saving Lelouch, what's the name of the song that they used?

[Dains11]

Firstly: Rolo's Geass was the most overpowered thing in the show. In the huge battle a couple of episodes ago LL had him looking for Nunally, but with his multiple second time stopping he could have killed every single Knightmare by just continuously freezing time.

Secondly: I have mixed feelings about Rolo. Part of me thinks he's a b*tch who selfishly killed Shirley and planned on killing Nunally. He was right in the end that he has always been a tool for someone, and he doesn't deserve any sympathy.

Yet another part sees him as an unloved and uncared for person his entire life. The one thing he could cling to were his feelings of family toward Lelouche, and though he did selfishly kill Shirley, it was because he is messed up emotionally and he felt like the only thing he could do to save his humanity was to keep Lelouche to himself, he was too afraid of what would happen if someone else got too close to him.

As for whether it was justified for the Black Knights to turn on Zero like that, I believe that it was the best choice to betray him. The majority of the Knights were Japanese, and they followed Zero primarily to gain independence back; therefore it makes sense that they'd agree to betraying him to achieve their final goal. Also, they had proof that he had commanded Euphy to murder their countrymen. What reason would they have to follow a lying leader, when Japan (I'm assuming) was handed back to them.
Granted, I understand that people say Schneizel is lying, but hindsight is 20/20, and the way I see it, they can follow a guaranteed liar in Zero, or take a chance that Scheizel is telling the truth, which I think he will be.

I thought it was interesting that when Ohgi asked for a condition before turning in Zero, Cornelia flipped out and Schneizel silenced her with a wave of his hand. This illustrates Schneizels leadership because he knew that it was not the right time for Cornelias stubborn and willful tactics. The best way to negotiate at that time was to give a little to gain alot. Giving back Japan to end a global war is a fair trade IMO.

I wonder what would happen if the Black Knights wanted Zero back, would Lelouche accept them?

Also how many episodes is this series supposed to have?

P.S. I wonder what the Japanese queen girl (I forget her name) is thinking about her "husband" now hahaha. That girl always irked me! Also I think when Kallen walked in on C.C. telling Lelouche to get nakey she was a little jealous!!!

[blackrider76]

Originally Posted by Orga777

It was thanks to Zero. But unlike in S1, they can take care of themselves now.

Can they, truly? I myself don't see any change from S1; they're still relying on Zero's orders, relying on his strategies, and in every pinch nothing less than Zero's strategies get them out. Toudou himself admitted at one point when his two subordinates were suspicious of Zero that they needed Zero; I just don't see the major change that you see; perhaps they've gotten better, but not enough to fight against Brittannia.

I just have to disagree here. I don't see the evidence as flimsy as you do at all. The coincidences are just too much to NOT believe.

Well, then I guess this is just a difference of opinion. I don't know, I just expected something more... compelling when one is convincing another of mind control powers and mutiny.

They still gave him a chance to talk. He didn't tell them anything and didn't deny Geass. That put the final nail in the coffin.

Again, at that point the nails were already in. Had Zero denied all of it I doubt it would have made a difference, they would just think him a liar, which they were already convinced of.

I think you expected WAY too much for an anime then. Even an anime as good as Code Geass needs to be taken with a grain of salt at times. I found it believable how they betrayed him and I don't think the evidence was that flimsy. Adding Asahina's testimony should have shown that he can't be trusted as well. There was just WAY too much evidence and WAY more coincidences.

Oh, I found it believable, read my first post in this topic. I just thought their actions of disposing Zero far too hasty and irresponsible.

Everyone made connections to the odd behaviors actually. They couldn't get why Guilford or Jeremiah joined them. They didn't get why so many unusual coincidences happened either. Geass explained that. Also, they can't spend forever going over every little detail with Geass. There is WAY too much to get in for only six episodes. It is still an anime that has time constraints. Was it a little rushed? Yeah, but it WORKS.

But as we know, Jeremiah didn't join under the influence of Geass; Guilford did, but simply resorting to magical powers as an explanation instead of taking into account unknown circumstances isn't the most rational thing to do when deciding whether or not to commit mutiny against a brilliant leader.

Well, I wasn't expecting details, just something like "Actually, we ourselves have been conducting research into Geass; you all may recall a little expedition Zero took a short while ago to attack one our bases? He was trying to annihilate our research facility, that's why he attacked civilians." or something like that. I guess explaining the details of geass was a bit misleading in my statement.

I think you're misinterpreting my feelings; probably because we diverged so far from the original point. I found this situation reasonable, I was commenting that the OotBK made a very irresponsible and hasty move, though it did not surprise me when this debate started. That's why the issue with the Black Rebellion was even brought up.

[Freya]

Originally Posted by Dains11

Also how many episodes is this series supposed to have?

25. So 6 more episodes.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Freya

Hmm well since Q&A thread is a bit dead. I'll ask my question here.

When Rolo is spamming his Geass saving Lelouch, what's the name of the song that they used?

Freya, all you need to do is look around a little more thoroughly, in places that it would pertain to, such as the Music Discussion thread. If you did, you'd have found this post, after the same question was asked:

Originally Posted by Lelouch Vi Britannia

Boku wa, Tori ni Naru, by Hitomi (ref Random Curiosity)
I think it is the track If I were a Bird in the R2 O.S.T.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Freya

25. So 5 more episodes.

6, actually. We just got through with 19, leaving us with six more episodes for a full 25.

[rpgman1]

Bah, we'll see the OotBK be torn apart by the Holy Britannian Empire because they decided to surrender their leader to them. They'll regret it anyway as Area 11 becomes the fighting ground for the decisive battle. Lelouch has to hide for now and come up with a way to kill Charles and prevent Ragnarok from happening (ironic considering that they're using Norse terms on WMDs). He'll probably meet up with Suzaku anyway and has to prevent himself from being caught.

If Schneizel had records of people being geassed, then what about Suzaku Kuturugi killing his father? Wouldn't that be included as well since that was how Japan became Area 11 in the first place? It is possible that these files are probably written hastily with lies as well if they were "top secret"?